Seasons in wow...Just Nooo!!!

[Aluren]

For a second I thought op was talking about winter, summer, etc. And honestly that would be pretty cool.

[erifwodahs]

Seasons in WoW has been a thing for way longer than it has not. We had non season WoW for what, 4 years, and 13-14 years of seasonal WoW. Complaining about WoW seasonality is like complaining about Coca-Cola not having cocaine in it anymore.

[NineSpine]

The only dishonest person in our discussion is you. Constantly misrepresenting what I have said, misquoting, strawmanning etc. I think you use these tactics because they work against amateurs and make you feel big to win arguments. Well, you've met your match. I am not going to roll over and concede to your bluster/bullying tactics.

The PvE progression path for the casual player is pretty clearly normal dungeons -> heroic dungeons -> LFR and/or Normal mode raids and/or mythic 0 dungeons. And nothing stops anyone from having a poke at low end M+. Other gearing options for casuals include world quests, crafting, reputation factions and timewalking to name but a few.

You seem to be fixated on this idea that if a casual player can't get the same level of gear as a hardcore mythic raider that somehow invalidates their ability to progress, or ability to enjoy the game. Which is just nonsense. Yes, I know you have your idea of how the perfect version of WoW would look. But I just don't see it. I am not even saying that your ideas are unworkable, that WoW can't be more like other MMO's and still be fun. What I am saying is that you haven't presented anything to suggest that it would be better than what we already have for those who already play the game, or entice those who already enjoy playing other games to return to WoW without driving away those who prefer the WoW model.

And as I have suggested before: If you prefer way other games work, maybe a more rational approach for you would be to rather play those games, instead of insisting that WoW become something it is not.

I am not going to pretend that Shadowlands is not without its flaws. I just don't think that the issues you keep harping on about are among them.

The progression paths you are talking about for casual players are over in days. What do you not understand about that? People want a substantive, long term progression path for casual play. A progression path that you outgear in a week is not that. You keep dodging this point. You keep acting like someone is out there running normal dungeons for two weeks to prepare for heroic dungeons.

How many times do I need to repeat this to you just so you can turn around and say "lol normal dungeons drop gear"? It's about the progression path being SUBSTANTIVE and LONG TERM. Do you understand? Can you acknowledge that point?

[Celement]

The progression paths you are talking about for casual players are over in days. What do you not understand about that? People want a substantive, long term progression path for casual play. A progression path that you outgear in a week is not that. You keep dodging this point. You keep acting like someone is out there running normal dungeons for two weeks to prepare for heroic dungeons.

How many times do I need to repeat this to you just so you can turn around and say "lol normal dungeons drop gear"? It's about the progression path being SUBSTANTIVE and LONG TERM. Do you understand? Can you acknowledge that point?

Yet that in itself is pointless to try and create. Logically it can go one of two ways. Trivial content that is designed only to consume time like world quests or the ZM self contained system that most view as pointless as progression in meaningless content feels meaningless.

There are long term progression paths for long term casual play. All 3k, CE,and glad. Each of those will take a casual player a patch cycle to complete. What you seem to actually want is for wow to get rid of normal and lfr then allow heroic gear to come from world quests.

It's a design option but I don't think wow players would react well to it.

[ThiagoTorres]

I really can not stand seasons in wow, bcs thinking that is not right direction for wow gameplay overall, maybe for diablo is ok, but for wow nope...Just curious, what do you think about seasons in wow???

And again those devs wanna make wow a diablo mmo..

[NineSpine]

Yet that in itself is pointless to try and create. Logically it can go one of two ways. Trivial content that is designed only to consume time like world quests or the ZM self contained system that most view as pointless as progression in meaningless content feels meaningless.

There are long term progression paths for long term casual play. All 3k, CE,and glad. Each of those will take a casual player a patch cycle to complete. What you seem to actually want is for wow to get rid of normal and lfr then allow heroic gear to come from world quests.

It's a design option but I don't think wow players would react well to it.

What I want is an endgame pillar based on solo and queue based content. That's what casual players do. 50% of wow players do not do M+, normal+ raiding, or rated pvp. Those players should have an endgame loop, because they are half the playerbase. Denying them an endgame loop is killing the game.

These are problems other games solved a decade ago, so the confusion and apoplexy wow players respond with is really weird. It makes me think a lot of people never play any other games.

[Elias1337]

What I want is an endgame pillar based on solo and queue based content. That's what casual players do. 50% of wow players do not do M+, normal+ raiding, or rated pvp. Those players should have an endgame loop, because they are half the playerbase. Denying them an endgame loop is killing the game.

These are problems other games solved a decade ago, so the confusion and apoplexy wow players respond with is really weird. It makes me think a lot of people never play any other games.

Other games hasnt solved anything. They just killed its mmo aspect and turn their games into single player experience. Nobady will ever waste their time playing with group of people when they can get same rewards playing solo.

[Celement]

What I want is an endgame pillar based on solo and queue based content. That's what casual players do. 50% of wow players do not do M+, normal+ raiding, or rated pvp. Those players should have an endgame loop, because they are half the playerbase. Denying them an endgame loop is killing the game.

These are problems other games solved a decade ago, so the confusion and apoplexy wow players respond with is really weird. It makes me think a lot of people never play any other games.

Right you had torghast and mage. Before that visions and scenarios. WoW gave you what you wanted...

[NineSpine]

Right you had torghast and mage. Before that visions and scenarios. WoW gave you what you wanted...

Would you accept if M+, normal+ raiding, or rated pvp had the reward structure of torghast, mage tower, or visions had? No, you wouldn’t.

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Other games hasnt solved anything. They just killed its mmo aspect and turn their games into single player experience. Nobady will ever waste their time playing with group of people when they can get same rewards playing solo.

Group content is just as, if not more popular, in FF14 and Destiny 2.

[Celement]

Would you accept if M+, normal+ raiding, or rated pvp had the reward structure of torghast, mage tower, or visions had? No, you wouldn’t.

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Group content is just as, if not more popular, in FF14 and Destiny 2.

You mean mythic raid items like visions or 291 gear from torghast? Sure I guess?

Wow can't be torn down from the envy of others. Learn to accept you wont be max ilv in the easy modes.

[NineSpine]

You mean mythic raid items like visions or 291 gear from torghast? Sure I guess?

Wow can't be torn down from the envy of others. Learn to accept you wont be max ilv in the easy modes.

I can’t engage with the kind of dishonesty results in pretending one or two legendaries are the same as being able to fully gear your character. If they released a raid toer or M+ season where the only rewards were a legendary you’d lose your shit so just make a coherent argument rather than being a dishonest, bad faith interlocutor.

You know that every time you do this weird rambling about jealousy you sound like a pathetic 14 year old girl who thinks everyone doesn’t like her because they are jealous of how pretty she is right? It makes it sound like you do content you don’t like for gear, and because you are addicted to it you demand everyone else not have fun either. That’s how it comes off, so if that’s not the case I’d advise you to grow up and argue for why your ideas are fun rather than engaging in weird, creepy accusations.

[Talon8669]

You mean mythic raid items like visions or 291 gear from torghast? Sure I guess?

Wow can't be torn down from the envy of others. Learn to accept you wont be max ilv in the easy modes.

Reading through a lot of these comments and I am sitting here thinking I love WoW but I don't currently play WoW, why is that. Here is my specific issue and I think it may be one that carries over to a lot of others. I used to raid and it was a blast. But I am 38 years old now, I have 3 biological children and 2 step children. I have a wife and an ex wife. I have a decent size house on 3.5 acres. We have chickens, ducks, dogs, cats and a garden. I also own an electrical construction company. And yes I still love playing video games when I can. I have zero desire anymore to farm for raids, read up on guides, watch videos and then sit down for what 3-4 hours 2 times a week to raid. I just don't have that desire, not in SL and not in TBC. But I still want to play. I want to log in when I have time, I want to hit some bgs, maybe run a dungeon and shit if I am feeling really fresh maybe pop in and to a LFR. And I can do all of that, and I get that. But I am still competitive. So when I do these things I want to wreck the meters or wreck my opponent. I want to do this because I know I can.....that is if I had the time to get the best gear, which I don't nor do I have the desire to do so. So there's the issue. I don't want to raid or do rated pvp but I want the rewards that content offers so I can be the "best". Fact is I will grind shit out for hours and hours and lose sleep and dump a shit ton of time into this game, but I need it 100% on my time when I feel like doing it and I don't want to have to deal with getting a group together or rely on someone else skill set to be successful. I want to say log in do BG's for 16 hours straight because family is gone and it's raining outside and get my leet gear and have fun. But I won't do that if the gear I can get isn't the best or near the best. So why the hell do I play MMO's then. Its the nature of the game, persistent world, always something to do, new content, different content, level alts and so forth. Currently playing elden ring and I am on NG+, i killed every boss, got all the weapons, all the spells, I did it all. So I can keep playing and I'll probably finish 1 more NG+ but that's basically it. I did it, it's done, nothing more for me. In an MMO that doesn't really happen, or there is at least so much stuff to do you can always find something to do. But I don't want to raid and I don't want to do rated pvp. And here's the other kicker, I don't really want to play any other MMO because I have and I just like wow. So what does someone like me do? Do we complain and try to make a game we love be a game we want to play or do we piss the fuck off and let the game be the game and just not play. IDK man it's not just this black and white deal; maybe you think it is. But at least think about my perspective and try and see things the way I do; you know walk a mile in my shoes. I don't want WoW to be worse I just want my epics my way; selfish or entitled, idk probably, maybe not.

[VMSmith]

You know that every time you do this weird rambling about jealousy you sound like a pathetic 14 year old girl who thinks everyone doesn’t like her because they are jealous of how pretty she is right? It makes it sound like you do content you don’t like for gear, and because you are addicted to it you demand everyone else not have fun either. That’s how it comes off, so if that’s not the case I’d advise you to grow up and argue for why your ideas are fun rather than engaging in weird, creepy accusations.

I've been trying to think of exactly why their posts ring so shallowly, and you nailed it exactly. They're just another one of those people whose every comment is how people are just jealous of them, as if they're really trying to convince themselves. It's sad.

I will say, however, that I don't think gear or ilevel is what truly matters for casual players. It's part of it, for sure, but I really feel like what matters most is whether the content is fun or not. Gear can be fun, but that runs out eventually. The content for casuals in WoW is just not fun in any way, including gear. Blizzard only understands competitive gaming (such as Rated Arena, M+, and Heroic/Mythic raids) and just doesn't get how people can have fun if they're not competing and being "challenged".

[Celement]

I can’t engage with the kind of dishonesty results in pretending one or two legendaries are the same as being able to fully gear your character. If they released a raid toer or M+ season where the only rewards were a legendary you’d lose your shit so just make a coherent argument rather than being a dishonest, bad faith interlocutor.

You know that every time you do this weird rambling about jealousy you sound like a pathetic 14 year old girl who thinks everyone doesn’t like her because they are jealous of how pretty she is right? It makes it sound like you do content you don’t like for gear, and because you are addicted to it you demand everyone else not have fun either. That’s how it comes off, so if that’s not the case I’d advise you to grow up and argue for why your ideas are fun rather than engaging in weird, creepy accusations.

You just can't seem to grasp difficulty goes into it... be less green with envy and focus on your own progression not what the mythic raider has.

[NineSpine]

I've been trying to think of exactly why their posts ring so shallowly, and you nailed it exactly. They're just another one of those people whose every comment is how people are just jealous of them, as if they're really trying to convince themselves. It's sad.

I will say, however, that I don't think gear or ilevel is what truly matters for casual players. It's part of it, for sure, but I really feel like what matters most is whether the content is fun or not. Gear can be fun, but that runs out eventually. The content for casuals in WoW is just not fun in any way, including gear. Blizzard only understands competitive gaming (such as Rated Arena, M+, and Heroic/Mythic raids) and just doesn't get how people can have fun if they're not competing and being "challenged".

I think virtually all players want a fun, substantive, long-term progression path. It's less about what other people have and more about finding yourself a week into an expansion and out of things to do.

[Celement]

Reading through a lot of these comments and I am sitting here thinking I love WoW but I don't currently play WoW, why is that. Here is my specific issue and I think it may be one that carries over to a lot of others. I used to raid and it was a blast. But I am 38 years old now, I have 3 biological children and 2 step children. I have a wife and an ex wife. I have a decent size house on 3.5 acres. We have chickens, ducks, dogs, cats and a garden. I also own an electrical construction company. And yes I still love playing video games when I can. I have zero desire anymore to farm for raids, read up on guides, watch videos and then sit down for what 3-4 hours 2 times a week to raid. I just don't have that desire, not in SL and not in TBC. But I still want to play. I want to log in when I have time, I want to hit some bgs, maybe run a dungeon and shit if I am feeling really fresh maybe pop in and to a LFR. And I can do all of that, and I get that. But I am still competitive. So when I do these things I want to wreck the meters or wreck my opponent. I want to do this because I know I can.....that is if I had the time to get the best gear, which I don't nor do I have the desire to do so. So there's the issue. I don't want to raid or do rated pvp but I want the rewards that content offers so I can be the "best". Fact is I will grind shit out for hours and hours and lose sleep and dump a shit ton of time into this game, but I need it 100% on my time when I feel like doing it and I don't want to have to deal with getting a group together or rely on someone else skill set to be successful. I want to say log in do BG's for 16 hours straight because family is gone and it's raining outside and get my leet gear and have fun. But I won't do that if the gear I can get isn't the best or near the best. So why the hell do I play MMO's then. Its the nature of the game, persistent world, always something to do, new content, different content, level alts and so forth. Currently playing elden ring and I am on NG+, i killed every boss, got all the weapons, all the spells, I did it all. So I can keep playing and I'll probably finish 1 more NG+ but that's basically it. I did it, it's done, nothing more for me. In an MMO that doesn't really happen, or there is at least so much stuff to do you can always find something to do. But I don't want to raid and I don't want to do rated pvp. And here's the other kicker, I don't really want to play any other MMO because I have and I just like wow. So what does someone like me do? Do we complain and try to make a game we love be a game we want to play or do we piss the fuck off and let the game be the game and just not play. IDK man it's not just this black and white deal; maybe you think it is. But at least think about my perspective and try and see things the way I do; you know walk a mile in my shoes. I don't want WoW to be worse I just want my epics my way; selfish or entitled, idk probably, maybe not.

It kind of is black and white through... you changed your hobby didn't and rather then let others enjoy it you want it razed to ground and rebuilt for YOUR circumstances. Not only is that unhealthy it kind of makes you a prick.

There comes a time to just move on.

[NineSpine]

You just can't seem to grasp difficulty goes into it... be less green with envy and focus on your own progression not what the mythic raider has.

So, we are just completely done with even attempting to have an adult conversation. It's just going to be you being creepy now?

If you gave every casual player mythic raid gear as fast as they run out of progression right now IT WOULDN'T FIX THE PROBLEM. Stop with the creepy self-obsession for two minutes. It's weird. The problem is that a week or two into an expansion or patch a casual player is out of shit to do, because their progression is already over. Would you like it if M+ progression was over in a week? Or raid progression was over in a week? No, you want the game to give you substantive, long term things to work on. That's what all players want.

Please stop with the weird shit.

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It kind of is black and white through... you changed your hobby didn't and rather then let others enjoy it you want it razed to ground and rebuilt for YOUR circumstances. Not only is that unhealthy it kind of makes you a prick.

There comes a time to just move on.

The difference here is we are asking for the game to be made more fun for us and for NOTHING TO CHANGE FOR YOU. For some creepy, weird reason your fun is contingent on other people not having fun.

[Celement]

So, we are just completely done with even attempting to have an adult conversation. It's just going to be you being creepy now?

If you gave every casual player mythic raid gear as fast as they run out of progression right now IT WOULDN'T FIX THE PROBLEM. Stop with the creepy self-obsession for two minutes. It's weird. The problem is that a week or two into an expansion or patch a casual player is out of shit to do, because their progression is already over. Would you like it if M+ progression was over in a week? Or raid progression was over in a week? No, you want the game to give you substantive, long term things to work on. That's what all players want.

Please stop with the weird shit.

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The difference here is we are asking for the game to be made more fun for us and for NOTHING TO CHANGE FOR YOU. For some creepy, weird reason your fun is contingent on other people not having fun.

I'm just able to see past how absurd your desire is. You want endless toothless content that is rewarding for weeks or months. It's so trivial and effortless to point out why this cant work it's more interesting to pick apart the underlying arguments to your absurd ones.

Nothing is stopping players from doing harder more engaging content but them.

[NineSpine]

I'm just able to see past how absurd your desire is. You want endless toothless content that is rewarding for weeks or months. It's so trivial and effortless to point out why this cant work it's more interesting to pick apart the underlying arguments to your absurd ones.

Nothing is stopping players from doing harder more engaging content but them.

The content is not fun for most players. That's why only 50% of players ever do it. Do you like when the game forces you to do content that you don't think is fun?

These systems work perfectly fine in virtually every other similar game. That's why you don't make coherent argument and just start talking about how everyone is jealous of your pretty hair and that's why nobody came to your birthday party.

[Kyanion]

The content is not fun for most players.

Source: Trust me bro.

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That's why only 50% of players ever do it.

More made up numbers. Glad you know the amount of people that do LFR/normal/heroic/mythic raiding and normal/heroic/mythic dungeons and any other content for that matter.

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These systems work perfectly fine in virtually every other similar game.

You know: Those OTHER games that have less players than WoW, shut down already or are F2P with robust cash shops, etc. You know the 'virtually' similar games.