Why do I need to support the Horde rebuilding Tirisfal as an Alliance player?

[Athorha]

Did you ignore helping souls in the maw when you found out their living allegiance was to the horde?

[Feanoro]

he blames on the orcs even though they had nothing to do with how the forsaken operated.

Other than the whole "members of the Horde" which absolutely means the Horde is responsible.

And while is racism is justified from his experiences from WC1-3 nothing thralls horde does justify’s it further they were on more or less good behaviour from classic-cata as far as WC1-3 esc actions(not that they were perfect just weren’t doing any genocides or full on waring with the alliance) goes and Varian just continuously attributes actions of outside factions to them based off of little to nothing.

Bold mine, if only for the laughs. Hey, at least they weren't committing genocide again! Good Lord, talk about having low expectations. Thrall's Horde had the Forsaken running rampant, routine kidnapping and enslaving Alliance civilians, and you say they did nothing? Seriously? No state would or should tolerate its citizens being kidnapped for medical experiments, torture, and gladiatorial slavery.

[Aydinx2]

your right it is absolutely just racism against orcs, even the undercity he blames on the orcs even though they had nothing to do with how the forsaken operated.

The Forsaken are members of the Horde. The Horde leader should keep them in check if they can't be trusted.

[ChampionChains]

You just gotta accept that you're playing the cuck faction with a humiliation fetish.

[Aydinx2]

You just gotta accept that you're playing the cuck faction with a humiliation fetish.

That's rich considering the Horde keeps getting cucked by their own leaders and then the Alliance has to step in and force them to be good boys again.

[Feanoro]

Even IF we believe that Putress tried to go against Sylvanas, that only absolves her of the Wrathgate, not of all the crimes that were commited in making the Blight.

It doesn't absolve her at all. She ordered the creation of the Royal Apothecaries and she ordered the creation of the Blight. Just like Thrall, she is responsible for her people. She wanted the big girl chair, she gets the baggage that comes with it. She either knew about Putress or didn't. If she knew, that means she did nothing and is complicit. If she didn't know, she is incompetent and should still face consequences for that failure.

I completely agree. Blizzard is doing all in their power to make BFA never having existed FOR THE HORDE. They get their lost city back and NIGHTELVES are fuckin forced to help them with it. That is beyond tonedeaf. It is a literal slap in the face. I am not seeing Forsaken lining up to find a way to regrow a world tree, Blizzard... and we all know that we never will.

Goodness, what's wrong with the survivors of the Purges helping Stalin? /drippingsarcasm

At this point you might as well remove the Alliance as a playable faction, so you can stop pretending that you ever gave a fuck about this side of the story.

Cross faction exists because they gave up on fixing it. Expect the story to become even more monolithic going forward.

And every Alliance player with a brain knows that all this will come back to bite us again. The Horde will turn on us again the first chance they get and when the Forsaken are happily blighting our people again we will only feel more like idiots for giving them the chance.

Oh but that's just anti-Horde raaaaaaaaaaaaacism, don't you know? It sure isn't pattern recognition.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

The next time a race of alien invaders destroys your home and some years later enslaves you and uses you in their gladitorial death games for their personal amusement, I am sure you will have nothing but good words for those aliens afterwards huh?

Come on. The Horde has brought all the hatred on itself and you know it. They are not innocent victims of a racist evil hooomann. Especially since Varian only declared war after he saw the Undercity and the various obscenities that had been happening there under Sylvanas' reign.

Something he puts on Thrall and the wider Horde because Thrall is Warchief and thus is responsible for these war crimes. Him not knowing of it is no excuse. It was his job to know and frankly, he was a fucking moron in any interaction with Sylvanas.

Even IF we believe that Putress tried to go against Sylvanas, that only absolves her of the Wrathgate, not of all the crimes that were commited in making the Blight.

Never said the horde was innocent or even that Varian’s racism is unjustified.

Justified or not though the facts of the matter are that Varian starts the war due to multiple false flag attacks that he believes are done by the horde based off nothing but his own racism even when he has people rightfully telling him it wasn’t them.

Varian also doesn’t approach the battle for undercity in such a reasonable way of the leader not keeping his underlings in check (something he’s also guilty of) he sees it from a racial view.

King Varian Wrynn says: I've waited a long time for this, Thrall. For every time I was thrown into one of your damned arenas... for every time I killed a green-skinned aberration like you... I could only think of one thing.
King Varian Wrynn says: What our world could be without you and your twisted Horde... It ends now, Warchief.

[Raisei]

Well, I think most people were upset at Genn because, well, they were literally in the middle of a massive world-ending invasion by a nearly infinite alien force. No one is saying that Genn has no right to hate or even oppose Sylvanas actively. But doing so while they were supposed to be cooperating against the broader threat seems foolhardy and mutually destructive.

You realize that Sylvanas was happily executing her own completely unrelated plans and those are what Genn disturbed? It wasn't like she was in any way even trying to help the war effort against the Legion. Newest lore makes it clear that her whole deal with Helya and the Lantern were part of her Jailer Covenant quest line. She just used the Legion Invasion as a cover and she could very easily have turned Odyn against us which would have been a huge hit to the war effort.

So... it is quite rich to blame Genn for hindering the war effort because he prevented Sylvanas from hindering the war effort.

Plus, after this, Sylvanas is NOWHERE to be seen while the Legion rampaged. She could have died in that scene in Stormheim and it would have changed nothing. Powerhouse my ass. She was probably hiding in the Undercity since her immortality plan failed and she might have died in the Invasion.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Other than the whole "members of the Horde" which absolutely means the Horde is responsible.

puttress and co betray the horde and join the legion this is something even Varian agrees is the case as the battle for undercity is a joint horde alliance effort, the horde isn’t responsible even by alliance standards.

Bold mine, if only for the laughs. Hey, at least they weren't committing genocide again! Good Lord, talk about having low expectations. Thrall's Horde had the Forsaken running rampant, routine kidnapping and enslaving Alliance civilians, and you say they did nothing? Seriously? No state would or should tolerate its citizens being kidnapped for medical experiments, torture, and gladiatorial slavery.

Yes this is nothing serious as far as Warcraft goes as the alliance also has policy’s on the books to kill forsaken on sight to “free” them and would also capture “kidnap” horde members found in there land. The only thing the horde was doing that the alliance wasn’t was having arena fights, which technically wasn’t legal in the horde.

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The Forsaken are members of the Horde. The Horde leader should keep them in check if they can't be trusted.

The forsaken had done nothing to be untrusted prior to the wrath gate and Said forsaken betray and leave the horde, keeping traitors in check isn’t something either faction does as you know they aren’t aware that they are traitors until something goes down.

At most you could say they shouldn’t have been able to make the blight but literally no one knew what the blight was so it’s kinda hard to ban something only a sylvanas and a couple of traitors know about.

[Lionhearte0]

I have no idea what is going on in the minds of Blizzards story writes, I really do not.

Sounds like a "you" problem.

It was just one expansion ago that we fought to destroy UC, now we help the forsaken to restore Lordaeron despite nothing has changed in the meantime?

Ah, yes. The Battle for Lordaeron. The battle we fought in response to the Burning of Teldrassil, which was ordered by Sylvanas. The Battle in which we were aiming to kill Sylvanas. That Battle. The Lordaeron Battle. To kill Sylvanas.

I will not even start with all the other problems the alliance story ONCE AGAIN has and that only seems to be getting worse every single patch, but the whole PREMISE of this questline is so dumb, I ONCE AGAIN can't believe somebody approved it to be released.

Maybe if you actually played the game you would know what's going on. You don't even have to read the books to figure it out. My guess is you're a FF14 chub.

Title: Why do I need to support the Horde rebuilding Tirisfal as an Alliance player?

You don't need to. You can unsubscribe from the game, or if you can't find it in your pathetic willpower to do so, pretend that you're protesting your faction's diplomatic efforts to maintain peace. Maybe turn War Mode on and camp out in a low level Horde zone, kill some new players for an evening. That will make you feel big and strong and really show the Horde you mean business.

[VladlTutushkin]

Never said the horde was innocent or even that Varian’s racism is unjustified.

Justified or not though the facts of the matter are that Varian starts the war due to multiple false flag attacks that he believes are done by the horde based off nothing but his own racism even when he has people rightfully telling him it wasn’t them.

Varian also doesn’t approach the battle for undercity in such a reasonable way of the leader not keeping his underlings in check (something he’s also guilty of) he sees it from a racial view.

Honestly, it seems like if not for forsaken Horde wouldnt end up in 2/3 of its wars with Alliance.

Will they EVER understand that kidnapping, torturing and etc done by your subordinate/ally is also on you? When it put "on rails" and perpetuated constantly like an industry it becomes entirely impossible to cover too.

Not to mention the macabre experiments and etc.

Hell, even their "we are Horde's military ally in EK" only bears weight BECAUSE Alliance is constantly enraged by the forsaken's own twisted actions.

Also the "super intelligent, 5head, ruhtless Kween" Sylvanas had a worse grip on the ACTUALLY IMPORTANT parts of her little goth club then a blind man on a bowling ball.

Which feeds into my theory that she was just a dumb, ruthless but inept dictator who was chugging along on insane luck, some charisma and sheer brutality she used to quell the populace instead of actual 5head statesmanship.

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It doesn't absolve her at all. She ordered the creation of the Royal Apothecaries and she ordered the creation of the Blight. Just like Thrall, she is responsible for her people. She wanted the big girl chair, she gets the baggage that comes with it. She either knew about Putress or didn't. If she knew, that means she did nothing and is complicit. If she didn't know, she is incompetent and should still face consequences for that failure.

Goodness, what's wrong with the survivors of the Purges helping Stalin? /drippingsarcasm

Cross faction exists because they gave up on fixing it. Expect the story to become even more monolithic going forward.

Oh but that's just anti-Horde raaaaaaaaaaaaacism, don't you know? It sure isn't pattern recognition.

Well, for the academic honesty - survivors of Stalin's purges and deportations DID helped him later, well, worked for him as citizens of the state. But only because they had no say on the matter and he would purge them again if they didnt.

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Sounds like a "you" problem.

Ah, yes. The Battle for Lordaeron. The battle we fought in response to the Burning of Teldrassil, which was ordered by Sylvanas. The Battle in which we were aiming to kill Sylvanas. That Battle. The Lordaeron Battle. To kill Sylvanas.



Maybe if you actually played the game you would know what's going on. You don't even have to read the books to figure it out. My guess is you're a FF14 chub.



You don't need to. You can unsubscribe from the game, or if you can't find it in your pathetic willpower to do so, pretend that you're protesting your faction's diplomatic efforts to maintain peace. Maybe turn War Mode on and camp out in a low level Horde zone, kill some new players for an evening. That will make you feel big and strong and really show the Horde you mean business.

So... when Horde is going to help Alliance fix all the shit they destroyed? Maybe start from rebuilding Theramore, then move onto Ashenvale and Darkshore.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Honestly, it seems like if not for forsaken Horde wouldnt end up in 2/3 of its wars with Alliance.

Will they EVER understand that kidnapping, torturing and etc done by your subordinate/ally is also on you? When it put "on rails" and perpetuated constantly like an industry it becomes entirely impossible to cover too.

Not to mention the macabre experiments and etc.

Hell, even their "we are Horde's military ally in EK" only bears weight BECAUSE Alliance is constantly enraged by the forsaken's own twisted actions.

I think only the BFA war could have been avoided if the forsaken weren’t around.

Varian was looking for an excuse to declare war and while the forsaken gave it to him he doesn’t actually take any real military action until the false flags in ashenvale and his first and major strikes are to try and get at the orcs ignoring the forsaken all together until the worgen get involved. For Varian the war was all about the orcs and with garrosh lacking any diplomatic tact he would always find a reason to start the war assuming garrosh didn’t beat him to it.


And yes the horde is responsible for kidnapping members of the alliance but that’s also irrelevant as the alliance did the same thing when horde members were in there lands and had polices on the books to kill certain meme era on sight which is the equivalent of what the forsaken did as no one actually knows about any of the experimenting just that human were found dead in undercity. Both factions capturing and killing the other members isn’t what actually lead to the war it was just business as usual post WC3.

[Raisei]

Never said the horde was innocent or even that Varian’s racism is unjustified.

By using such a term as "racism" for this matter, which is as loaded a word as ever there was one in the human language, you were clearly putting the Horde in the position of victims of unjust actions by someone that is definately wrong. It is not racism, it is the Horde getting their just desserts for all the evil shit it has done. Varian was their victim for big parts of his life and now he gets to make them pay for it.

Justified or not though the facts of the matter are that Varian starts the war due to multiple false flag attacks that he believes are done by the horde based off nothing but his own racism even when he has people rightfully telling him it wasn’t them.

First of all, Varian had no way of knowing this. Jaina only defended Thrall because they were friends and thus she was inclined to believe his side of the story. There was not the slightest proof that Sylvanas did not orchestrate the entire thing. Something she would have been absolutely capable of both from her ability as well as her moral compulsion.
We only know now for sure, decades later, that there was in fact a coup and we only know because we get to see Sylvanas in that situation. Before this book, we only had Sylvanas word for it. Varian did not have these informations so he went with the most likely scenario which from his experience was that the Horde was behind it all.

Secondly, flase flag operations there were, yes. But the Undercity was not one of those. Everything Varian saw there happened with Sylvanas' consent and because he never cared to check on the Scourge he invited into his Horde, they happened with Thrall's consent.

Also, Purtress might have coloured things in his own ideas, but the Wrathgate was technically following exactly Sylvanas instructions, even if she did not specifically order it. She said to use any and all chances to deploy the Blight against Arthas, no matter what the situation was, no matter who was in range of the attack. That is what Putress did. That he took great delight in murdering the Living and then started a coup is a different and almost unrelated thing.

Varian also doesn’t approach the battle for undercity in such a reasonable way of the leader not keeping his underlings in check (something he’s also guilty of) he sees it from a racial view.

I am not saying that Varian didn't want revenge and that it coloured his actions to a point, what I am saying is that despite this he was completely right and Jaina was not.

Thrall was a terrible leader for the Horde. His people were doing whatever they wanted whenever he had his back turned and most of the times "whatever they wanted" meant that Alliance lives were lost in brutal attacks or dispicable experiments. By all accounts this was an evil faction with a good leader that was too stupid to realize what was happening under his banner.
Even Jaina, who is so passionately protecting the Horde here had to learn how wrong she was only a bit later when all her trust and support for the Horde was payed back with her city being nuked and her friends pulverized.

The Horde easily deserved and deserves to be wiped out (maybe with a few exceptions, like the Horde Pandaren and some of the Blood Elves). They have not done anything less then any of the "evil" factions we wiped out. The only reason it still exists is because the writers keep protecting it by turning the Alliance into trusting idiots that allow themselves to be stabbed in the back again and again for the mercy they show.

[Feanoro]

Will they EVER understand that kidnapping, torturing and etc done by your subordinate/ally is also on you? When it put "on rails" and perpetuated constantly like an industry it becomes entirely impossible to cover too.

Nope, the piss poor writing always uses the go to excuse of "It wasn't us, it was all Blackhand/Doomhammer/Gul'dan/Putress/Garrosh/Sylvanas! We wuz tricked! They did it all solo, we wuz picking flowers!"

Not to mention the macabre experiments and etc.

The ones that Logar seems so desperate to avoid mentioning?

Which feeds into my theory that she was just a dumb, ruthless but inept dictator who was chugging along on insane luck, some charisma and sheer brutality she used to quell the populace instead of actual 5head statesmanship.

Nothing to theorize. Blizz has a talent for showing the exact opposite of what they intend, and Sylvie is shown to always have been an arrogant moron.

Well, for the academic honesty - survivors of Stalin's purges and deportations DID helped him later, well, worked for him as citizens of the state. But only because they had no say on the matter and he would purge them again if they didnt.

Working under duress isn't exactly "helping", not like this insulting quest line. This has Alliance happily helping the Forsaken, just because the new, improved, big tiddy undead lady asks.

So... when Horde is going to help Alliance fix all the shit they destroyed?

Shortly after the Tooth Fairy holds a press conference to explain what she does with all those teeth.

Maybe start from rebuilding Theramore, then move onto Ashenvale and Darkshore.

Given that Horde "building" involves clear cutting, strip mining, then putting spikes and chains all over the ruined land, how about they just work to provide resources?

[VladlTutushkin]

I think only the BFA war could have been avoided if the forsaken weren’t around.

Varian was looking for an excuse to declare war and while the forsaken gave it to him he doesn’t actually take any real military action until the false flags in ashenvale and his first and major strikes are to try and get at the orcs ignoring the forsaken all together until the worgen get involved. For Varian the war was all about the orcs and with garrosh lacking any diplomatic tact he would always find a reason to start the war assuming garrosh didn’t beat him to it.


And yes the horde is responsible for kidnapping members of the alliance but that’s also irrelevant as the alliance did the same thing when horde members were in there lands and had polices on the books to kill certain meme era on sight which is the equivalent of what the forsaken did as no one actually knows about any of the experimenting just that human were found dead in undercity. Both factions capturing and killing the other members isn’t what actually lead to the war it was just business as usual post WC3.

Yeah not buying it. What pushed him over the edge was Undercity's bowels and all the... decorations and items he witnessed. You know. He was about 70/30 in favor of just beheading the Putress and fucking off to brood but after cutting through UC his post-Lich "fuck its just rebranded Scourge" PTSD flared up and he went ballistic.

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Nope, the piss poor writing always uses the go to excuse of "It wasn't us, it was all Blackhand/Doomhammer/Gul'dan/Putress/Garrosh/Sylvanas! We wuz tricked! They did it all solo, we wuz picking flowers!"

The ones that Logar seems so desperate to avoid mentioning?

Nothing to theorize. Blizz has a talent for showing the exact opposite of what they intend, and Sylvie is shown to always have been an arrogant moron.

Working under duress isn't exactly "helping", not like this insulting quest line. This has Alliance happily helping the Forsaken.

Shortly after the Tooth Fairy holds a press conference to explain what she does with all those teeth.

Given that Horde "building" involves clear cutting, strip mining, then putting spikes and chains all over the ruined land, how about they just work to provide resources?

They can strip-mine and clear cut around Theramore, its a swamp anyway. Maybe they will dry it up accidentally and make a good service to everybody. But yeah, i wouldnt trust them not to destroy Ashenvale in a rebuilding effort.

[Darkeon]

Because very good storytelling. Alex Afrasiabi just won't stop until he single handily destroys the story out of spite!

[Aydinx2]

The forsaken had done nothing to be untrusted prior to the wrath gate and Said forsaken betray and leave the horde, keeping traitors in check isn’t something either faction does as you know they aren’t aware that they are traitors until something goes down.

At most you could say they shouldn’t have been able to make the blight but literally no one knew what the blight was so it’s kinda hard to ban something only a sylvanas and a couple of traitors know about.

"Tell me you don't know the lore without telling me you don't know the lore."

The Forsaken have been suspicious since Vanilla. And the blight has been in the game since Warcraft 3.

[VladlTutushkin]

"Tell me you don't know the lore without telling me you don't know the lore."

The Forsaken have been suspicious since Vanilla. And the blight has been in the game since Warcraft 3.

Wrong on the blight, right on the first part. Blight as we know it was developed in UC by the alchemists who used human (and dwarven) test subjects. It finished development near Wrath.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

By using such a term as "racism" for this matter, which is as loaded a word as ever there was one in the human language, you were clearly putting the Horde in the position of victims of unjust actions by someone that is definately wrong. It is not racism, it is the Horde getting their just desserts for all the evil shit it has done. Varian was their victim for big parts of his life and now he gets to make them pay for it

I mean rather you think it’s a “loaded” word or not or rather it’s justified or not by Varian being a victim that doesn’t change that by definition Varian’s views on the orcs are racist.

Varian did not have these informations so he went with the most likely scenario which from his experience was that the Horde was behind it all.

No actually Varian never says the horde was behind it all he agrees to work with them because he thinks they weren’t behind the wrath gate and only changes his toon when he sees what the forsaken actually do with human body's and uses that to justify his further hate of the orcs.

Secondly, flase flag operations there were, yes. But the Undercity was not one of those. Everything Varian saw there happened with Sylvanas' consent and because he never cared to check on the Scourge he invited into his Horde, they happened with Thrall's consent.

yes every thing that happens there was done with Sylvanas consent, but Varian doesn’t actually know what was happening there. All he sees is body’s and parts of body’s with no other context, he never actually finds out that thu were experimenting in the living he doesn’t look into where the body’s came from nor does he do any other investigating which would lead to things like the forsaken keeping old parts around for repairs.

Also, Purtress might have coloured things in his own ideas, but the Wrathgate was technically following exactly Sylvanas instructions, even if she did not specifically order it. She said to use any and all chances to deploy the Blight against Arthas, no matter what the situation was, no matter who was in range of the attack. That is what Putress did. That he took great delight in murderin the Living and then started a coup is a different and almost unrelated thing

while this is true it has no baring as no one knows this but sylvanas.

I am not saying that Varian didn't want revenge and that it coloured his actions to a point, what I am saying is that despite this he was completely right and Jaina was not

I completely agree that Varian was right in pretty much every thing he did I don’t fault him for any of it.

The only issue I take is people making excuses when in reality it all just came down to him having a racist streak pre Mop and wanting revenge. While he might have been on the money for wanting the horde gone it wasn’t actually for any thing they were doing currently it was his grudges that lead him.

[Raisei]

The forsaken had done nothing to be untrusted prior to the wrath gate and Said forsaken betray and leave the horde, keeping traitors in check isn’t something either faction does as you know they aren’t aware that they are traitors until something goes down.

Uhm... yes, nothing. Apart from murdering a huge band of Alliance soldiers for the great crime of being commanded by Garithos (whom they hated) and kidnapping farmers in Hillsbrad to be used in the Blight experiments. Innocent angels, all of them.

Seriously, have you even read the material?