M+ Hot Take: M+ is not meant to be pugged

[b1gh3x]

M+ is great fun with a group of friends.

Solo, it is easily one of the most miserable experiences this game has to offer.

As solo;

-the toxicity you have to endure, even if not directed at you, is some of the worst I have seen outside of a MOBA.

-the pressure to preform is at an elevated level, beyond that of just rolling with friends, likely contributing to the toxicity problem.

-the wait times are horrendous if you are a dps. Even if you are assembling your own group. You either have to wait on a tank or a healer, or you spend a good chunk of your play time getting rejected, applying to join other groups.

-Even if the previous three aren't an issue, it has the same pitfalls as any pugs, in that people aren't always on the same page. Examples like unfamiliar routes, unintended mob pulls, wasted cooldowns, and a whole host of other coordination problems.

With no alternative end game content, it is as if Blizzard is trying to de-incentivize solo play.

[klaps_05]

Cap m+ to +15 for pugs. For higher keys, bring back the old Arena teams interface and make it so you can only do keys as that team. Would make it a lot more interesting and reduce the pugging issues.

[Trenbolone]

M0 should be queueable. There should be some kind of leaver/dc protection for keys. Other than that, M+ is great and fine. I rarely encounter problems with other players in M+.

[Puri]

Hm, I mean end game content has never been made to be puggable at least from the start, you have various raid locks in mythic raids as well as server limitations. But yet it always was possible.

I have no problem pugging my weekyl m+15 - although at that point you can hardly call it "endgame content" - , and while sure some runs go downhill very fast, 80% are just fine. If you think this is not for you, yeah well, nobody is forcing you to do or pug them.

Apart from that, m+ obviously is not solo play, last I checked there were always four other players in the group. So no idea what made you think it was.

[Eazy]

Cap m+ to +15 for pugs. For higher keys, bring back the old Arena teams interface and make it so you can only do keys as that team. Would make it a lot more interesting and reduce the pugging issues.

Considering that most of the +20 I've done in this season with PUG - no and that's a stupid resolution. And to be honest? Most of the keys I've done on 20 or above with pugs were with really good, skilled, well-mannered people. The people with worst behaviour are doing +15 right now. They are ~260ilvl, expect to be boosted for the weekly chest.

It doesn't matter if it's +10, +3 or +25, you will always have a chance to encounter toxic people.

That's just a PUGland for you.

[Squigglyo]

Pugged KSM/Hero this season (3000 rating, 20+).

Was DPS.
Had relatively few problems.

There were plenty of 'failed' runs and a handful of 'toxic' groups. But no more so than what i would expect pugging raids or RBGs.
I found, the closer to +15 you get, the more toxic the groups get. Its full of 'almost' good players... the try hards. The ones trying to get KSM.
The ones who would blowup at the smallest mistakes, the ones who would leave after the first pull if it wasnt perfect.

Any dungeon 16+ and up, was mostly full of much more relaxed but also better players. Mistakes were made in higher keys, but we were more likely to finish it rather than rage.



The main issue I ever had was that groups I needed didnt exist. EG: By the end of my 3k journey, I needed fewer and fewer specific dungeons. I went from 5+ dungeons a night, so refreshing the LFG looking for that one dungeon I needed at a specific minimum key level.

[klaps_05]

Considering that most of the +20 I've done in this season with PUG - no and that's a stupid resolution. And to be honest? Most of the keys I've done on 20 or above with pugs were with really good, skilled, well-mannered people. The people with worst behaviour are doing +15 right now. They are ~260ilvl, expect to be boosted for the weekly chest.

It doesn't matter if it's +10, +3 or +25, you will always have a chance to encounter toxic people.

That's just a PUGland for you.

I picked +15 because that is where you move on from direct upgrades in ilevel to chance for additional items. I would even say anything up to +15 can be in an automatic dungeon finder group - like you said, its not that difficult. Remove the key too for those groups, just throw them in a +15 with a countdown going.

Having dedicated teams above +15 would add a lot more structure - you wouldnt be able to just go in with anyone as u would have to invite them to your team and then your seasonal title will be based on the rating. Then the rating can also be fully shifted away from players and into teams.

[KrayZ33]

I picked +15 because that is where you move on from direct upgrades in ilevel to chance for additional items. I would even say anything up to +15 can be in an automatic dungeon finder group - like you said, its not that difficult. Remove the key too for those groups, just throw them in a +15 with a countdown going.

Having dedicated teams above +15 would add a lot more structure - you wouldnt be able to just go in with anyone as u would have to invite them to your team and then your seasonal title will be based on the rating. Then the rating can also be fully shifted away from players and into teams.

It's an absolutely pointless system.

Why do you feel like it's necessary *forcing* random players to play together to create and form "teams"

You can go with your dedicated team above +15 just fine right now, you add them, you invite them... and then you go.
And you do the same thing next week or whenever you feel like.

There are more than enough times were I would run with a random player to fill an empty slot in my +20 or +15. That would be much harder to do with your idea for absolutely no benefit at all.

[potis]

Been saying this for years, there is this massive delusion that M+ was made for pugging because little Billy watches a youtube video or a streamer doing it.

M+ was created as an alternative to raiding for nights that there isnt a raid cause everyone with a brain, understands its a raid logging game or becomes one after a few weeks into the patch or for a group of friends to play together relevant content apart from raiding, it was always meant to be a guild/premade activity.

Now the pugging part, its the same as everything else in the game, when you are decent, you can pug, when you arent you cant.

Obviously this doesnt apply always cause the scaling has changed a lot or to everyone, but for the 99%, lets rephrase this to the higher keys/achievements arent puggable, find a guild.

[Loveliest]

True.

Tbh, none of this game is meant to be pugged, even though it can be pugged.

And it's not that Blizz is trying to decintivize solo play, it's that they focus to design things for social group play.
Also, it's not their fault necessarily, people won't play tank or healer as much as dps. To change that they would have to either completely drop responsability from those roles to be in line with dps (for example, tank needs to plan route which is a responsability) or redisign the entire game to be role agnostic.

Toxicity comes when someone thinks they are better than someone else. Which usually happens if:
- something goes wrong (mispull, wipes etc)
- something doesn't match popularized "something" (spec for a class, route)
- dungeons looks like it won't be timed without a clear cause (will usually be blamed on tank for being too slow).
Either way, no change will ever change people. Playing with friends only makes ppl be less toxic because they don't want to lose friends and more toxic with strangers because they don't care / no consequences.

[Eazy]

I picked +15 because that is where you move on from direct upgrades in ilevel to chance for additional items. I would even say anything up to +15 can be in an automatic dungeon finder group - like you said, its not that difficult. Remove the key too for those groups, just throw them in a +15 with a countdown going.

Having dedicated teams above +15 would add a lot more structure - you wouldnt be able to just go in with anyone as u would have to invite them to your team and then your seasonal title will be based on the rating. Then the rating can also be fully shifted away from players and into teams.

That system would be even more stupid than I thought.

Everyone would be making META groups for that. Even if they don't, they'll be forced to play M+ because they're "team". Totally nonsense.

[Loveliest]

M0 should be queueable. There should be some kind of leaver/dc protection for keys. Other than that, M+ is great and fine. I rarely encounter problems with other players in M+.

M0 is not queable as a transition. It still requires doing a group but has no timer. So first timers can get used to that without the pressure. Also, achis are set for M0, so randoms in your group don't start doing it mid run without you having a say.

[Roflfaceroll]

This person is complaining just to complain. If you have a problem propose a solution.

You say M+ isn't suppose to be pugged.... You do know you don't have to pug it at all? Find some friends or a guild that will join you during the times you play and progress with them.

Just because you fell into the pugging playstyle doesn't mean that is how it is suppose to be. I pug M+ because I don't really want to put forth the effort to keep with a set group. Yes there are issues with toxicity in M+ pug groups, but no one is making you join them. Your complaining is the equivalent of placing your hand on a burner thats on by your own volition and saying that it is burning you...

But do praytell explain how M+ are suppose to be conducted that isn't already possible. If you have a complaint then do you have a solution?

[ellieg]

M+ is great fun with a group of friends.

Solo, it is easily one of the most miserable experiences this game has to offer.

As solo;

-the toxicity you have to endure, even if not directed at you, is some of the worst I have seen outside of a MOBA.

-the pressure to preform is at an elevated level, beyond that of just rolling with friends, likely contributing to the toxicity problem.

-the wait times are horrendous if you are a dps. Even if you are assembling your own group. You either have to wait on a tank or a healer, or you spend a good chunk of your play time getting rejected, applying to join other groups.

-Even if the previous three aren't an issue, it has the same pitfalls as any pugs, in that people aren't always on the same page. Examples like unfamiliar routes, unintended mob pulls, wasted cooldowns, and a whole host of other coordination problems.

With no alternative end game content, it is as if Blizzard is trying to de-incentivize solo play.

They are hardly toxic at all. I slowly pug my way up to ksm every season and its no where near as bad as ppl make it out to be. Learn the dungeon mechanics, learn the important interrupts, and no how to do your role. Once u got that down, you can absolutely carry most keys by yourself.

If you encounter a lot of toxicity, its usually something you are doing.
Examples:
No interrupts
Bad dps
Failing mechanics
Taking a bunch of avoidable damage

If you aren't doing the above but still encountering toxicity, then you should pick your groups better.
Invite players more carefully.
Don't join +15 keys of 1200 rio players
Build your comp better

[bloodwulf]

Got my mount playing almost exclusively pugs due to my schedule this season. Out of all the dungeons to get to 2500, i maybe had 2 truly negative experiences. In fact, i actually added about 10 people to my friends list that i enjoyed running with so much. Longest I waited for a group was 15 minutes. I was playing Destruction Lock and all my gear was kept up as best i could (I don't raid). I would make groups or join groups, no one more than the other. It was actually such an enjoyable experience i will likely do that on a character in Dragonflight going forward.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

15 + seems pretty fine in a pug, but if you wanna go higher than 20 + then it’s probably better to have your own team or friends you usually play with. With a wait time it can be sometimes frustrating, especially when you don’t play meta spec. I just usually do some random stuff during the wait time, listen to music or chill while roleplaying. I also did invent a funny way to get in group faster. There is a note where you can write something and I always write that I am a progenitor of the cosmos and I demand an invitation or when it’s Mists of Tirna Scithe I just say that I like forest and sounds of nature. I can’t believe some people fall for it and give an instant invitation. Haha

[bloodwulf]

15 + seems pretty fine in a pug, but if you wanna go higher than 20 + then it’s probably better to have your own team or friends you usually play with. With a wait time it can be sometimes frustrating, especially when you don’t play meta spec. I just usually do some random stuff during the wait time, listen to music or chill while roleplaying. I also did invent a funny way to get in group faster. There is a note where you can write something and I always write that I am a progenitor of the cosmos and I demand an invitation or when it’s Mists of Tirna Scithe I just say that I like forest and sounds of nature. I can’t believe some people fall for it and give an instant invitation. Haha

I will say, there is a noticable difference between 15s and above and dungeons around 10s. If anything, 8-10s were the most likely to be problematic or not complete. I frequently ran into more issues where the dps was just not able to keep up with the tank in a 8 or 9 PF, than i ever did in a 15 PF. Honestly, i think i would be hard pressed to find a single 15+ that i did not complete on time with pugging, while i can find several when i was in the 8-10 range.

[Ealyssa]

-the toxicity you have to endure, even if not directed at you, is some of the worst I have seen outside of a MOBA.

I don't know in what world your playing...

I played with 800 different people according to rio seasonal recap (I pug a lot). And I encountered really few "toxicity". Sure I was insulted a few time as a tank player (It's obviously tanks fault when someone gets oneshot by a charge he didn't avoid or whatever), but I can't think of more than 20-30 times it happened in the 430+ (and counting) dungeons I ran this season.

Either you are pushing waaaaay above your level (happens a lot at this season's end with people on 2000 score trying 20+ without any real knowledge of what they are expected to do, no interupt, no disenrage, no dispel, bad bloodlust timing, etc.) or you are oversensitive about what is happening in a key.
Failing a key isn't toxicity, it happens when you are pushing higher than what your used to. Discussing shortcomings of the people in the group in a civil manner isn't toxicity, it's legit feedback on what can be improved.

15 + seems pretty fine in a pug, but if you wanna go higher than 20 + then it’s probably better to have your own team

I would totally disagree with this statement. Obviously run the level of key you're confident running. But the higher you go in PUG, the chillest the players are (in average, exception are obviously everywhere)
I don't even do keys under 21-22 for this exact reason (at least on my main). The level of play is just better, most people know what to do and when to do it.
On the other side people still struggling on lower keys are either lacking in confidence or just plain bad and will blame anything on anyone but them. The longer a season goes and the higher you must climb too to avoid the "sweaty nerd rage" of the mediocre players who want to climb without really improving their gameplay but by sheer bruteforce.

[talmir]

I pug most of my m+'s.. While I dont go much above 15+ (The occasiona 16, I usually play 15's) I havent had too much issue with "bad pugs". Sometimes a group implodes for some reason, but most of the time we finish the key and move on. If people want to pug their keys, why stop them? WoW has enough elitism-enabling bullcrap in it without adding more :P

[Th3Scourge]

It's true it's not for pugging, but that doesn't mean you can't

There are positive experiences too from pugging. I've made plenty of friends from pugging that I wouldn't have otherwise met.

A tip, if you want to have a better experience you need to tank it yourself