SO MANY DUNGEONS in Dragonflight

[NineSpine]

Because people couldn't manage to progress beyond them, not because anybody wanted to.

I knew plenty of people that started mid-BC and were more than happy to run Karazhan to gear up. It was just as fun then as it was the first day it was available.

As soon as that was no longer the case, this folded faster than a card house in a hurricane. Besides, the same was not the case in Vanilla. TBC is an aberation, not the norm.

Vanilla was very much the same. Onyxia and MC were active all the way up to TBC.

- - - Updated - - -

I think thats where fated raids comes into play. The cycle might be too fast for it and there is no progression from the oldest raid to newest but they might be on to something.

It's better, but it still plays into the really broken notion that everything needs to be about progression.

[Nynax]

When the fuck did "any new character" have to progress through every tier?

The only reason you had to do that was for specific trinkets, but if I had capped 70, and I joined a guild that was doing Sunwell/BT, they would just take me through there lmao

The key point is "if I joined a guild" then you got carried. But there used to always be new young guilds forming with people late to the expansion or friends new to raiding that decided to do it themselves and run through the tiers while using the limited catchup gear to help move faster.

With M+ though, no guild, no matter how fresh, bothers with that expansions tier 1 once tier 2 is out. There is zero point when the new M+ season gives whole gear sets that are above the old raid mythic.

[Alkizon]

Nynax
With M+ though, no guild, no matter how fresh, bothers with that expansions tier 1 once tier 2 is out. There is zero point when the new M+ season gives whole gear sets that are above the old raid mythic.

And this is one of many reasons (however, in terms of progress, this is key one) why I mentioned my "criticism" regarding them in my message

Well, at least people have finally figured out difference between PvP seasons and addition of new content. Do you want me to tell you how it was done before in the easiest way? Badges! New pieces of equipment were added every "season". They helped people, who're passing through same old instances, "keep new floor bar", but old instances remained actual at the same time and with same requirements. Yes, it wasn't fast, but everything worked as expected. So, those people who just started play got opportunity to simultaneously still receive initial gear and save up for stuff closer to last "soft floor", with proper activity and/or luck (and maybe even help) in 1/2 months, they will be almost completely ready to get acquainted with "new season", just when excitement of pioneers subsides - no scaling and resets, I'm happy

However, everything that I mentioned below third point of second part of my message is also applicable and appropriate.

[Warcraftarian]

Reading some of the replies on "SEASONS or TIERS", people are either confused, messed up, or just haven' t played wow 18 years plus.

SEASONS haven' t been in wow forever as people state, literally in Mists of Pandaria that was the change of dungeons being more than the same old thing for the whole expansion until they added challenge modes, this opened the world of Mythic Plus that we now see. But Blizzard knows we can' t run these over and over 2 years straight so they call it SEASONS so you have to grind out the same gear (better itlv or KSM) over and over, plus add a reward like a mount (bait to keep running old stuff) over and over.

TIERS that' s been around since the beginning. But tier is set to raids and each raid the gear gets better. With raids if there is 3-4 raids added per expansion and you finish off the last, your gear grinding is over. But Blizzard knows this means death to subs so they added FATED (Shadowlands) so you get to re-grind all that raid gear again.

This game vs being drug addicted is the same thing, as long as your pusher can regurgitate what you are on now and you can' t see there isn't no difference, your hooked. In being relevant to groups in Mythics or raids, this grind is impossible to avoid, Blizzard knows this like your dealer does ;-)

[shise]

WoW has always had season though.

Hmm no, not at all. M+ with the whole affixes system is a true season. Changing every week...

WoW traditional seasons can´t even be called that.

[Makorus]

Hmm no, not at all. M+ with the whole affixes system is a true season. Changing every week...

WoW traditional seasons can´t even be called that.

A change every week is not a season LMAO

- - - Updated - - -

The key point is "if I joined a guild" then you got carried. But there used to always be new young guilds forming with people late to the expansion or friends new to raiding that decided to do it themselves and run through the tiers while using the limited catchup gear to help move faster.

With M+ though, no guild, no matter how fresh, bothers with that expansions tier 1 once tier 2 is out. There is zero point when the new M+ season gives whole gear sets that are above the old raid mythic.

I am glad you have that very very very specific example of a whole guild of 25 completely new people who've never played starting a new guild that actually never happened in game.

[Nynax]

A change every week is not a season LMAO

- - - Updated - - -



I am glad you have that very very very specific example of a whole guild of 25 completely new people who've never played starting a new guild that actually never happened in game.

Not my fault if you've never had that experience, but I saw it plenty of times. Especially among the more casual playerbase (which is bigger than serious raiders, don't forget). Another thing that happened, and still happens with guilds already raiding the new content, "you must have X minimum ilvl (or gearscore) to raid with us." Reaching that point was entirely up to the new player to figure out. The idea of a whole guild funneling old gear into the newbie was a luxury and new players often just ended up finding groups raiding at their level.

Of course, this was all during the height of WoW, when the game eventually reached 11 million players. New people and new guilds where a constant.

[Koollan]

It's better, but it still plays into the really broken notion that everything needs to be about progression.

I was under the impression that people enjoy progression, and that's why people are disliking the idea of seasons, because it 'invalidates' progression.

[NineSpine]

I was under the impression that people enjoy progression, and that's why people are disliking the idea of seasons, because it 'invalidates' progression.

I don't think that's the only reason people dislike seasons. I dislike seasons because I don't like deprecating old content.

My complaint you were quoting is about everything needing to be part of the endgame gearing progression loop, which I could have been clearer about. WoW needs more isolated, evergreen systems. For example, rather than trying to figure out how to make old raids a part of the endgame gearing progression loop, create an evergreen fixed-gear-level version of old raids and have them reward cosmetics. There are a lot of directions to go in, but instead they try to make everything part of endgame gearing progression which necessarily means you deprecate it eventually.

[Koollan]

I don't think that's the only reason people dislike seasons. I dislike seasons because I don't like deprecating old content.

My complaint you were quoting is about everything needing to be part of the endgame gearing progression loop, which I could have been clearer about. WoW needs more isolated, evergreen systems. For example, rather than trying to figure out how to make old raids a part of the endgame gearing progression loop, create an evergreen fixed-gear-level version of old raids and have them reward cosmetics. There are a lot of directions to go in, but instead they try to make everything part of endgame gearing progression which necessarily means you deprecate it eventually.

Okay, sure, I can see that, but I personally disagree with that for one simple reason.
That's quite literally what it's like currently. (Prior to Fated.)
Cosmetics are stuff like Transmogs, Titles, Mounts. All of which are things that you can actively get by doing old raids already. Granted, I do wish that there was more cosmetic reward. That I can absolutely agree with. However, I do not want to be doing that content all of the time if it isn't challenging, in my personal opinion. Doing old transmog runs and mount runs can be fun and all, but it gets mind numbing to do easy and mindless content nonstop. Imagine doing difficult content for consistent cosmetic reward. Best of both worlds?

Tl;dr - I want old raids to be brought up to the current standard. Or, perhaps a tier behind current standard - like they're doing with WotLK classic. They're making massive strides towards that. More content to do, to choose to do, only increases replay value.

[Neuroticaine]

people like you should be shot. this is the worst argument ever. Blizz could do 2 dungeons every content patch if they wanted to. Its not a problem resource-wise. The problem is, they dont want to/care. And "people" like yourself give them ammunition even. Fucking jesus!

You desperately need therapy if your idea of contribution to a thread is "people who disagree with me should be shot."

- - - Updated - - -

in the case of raids is represented by the absolute deprecation of the old raid by level-setting the rest of the rewards in the game to exceed that raid. This was not always the case.

They had released catchup mechanics to bypass older content with new content as early as TBC. A fresh 70 could easily progress into BT and then Sunwell without ever stepping foot in Tier 4 or 5 raids by the end of the expansion. They may do it in a different way now, but the end result is largely the same.

[Koollan]

You desperately need therapy if your idea of contribution to a thread is "people who disagree with me should be shot."

Trenbolone is known to be incredibly deranged. I'm surprised he's not suspended, to be honest with you. What entitlement does to a mf.

[NineSpine]

You desperately need therapy if your idea of contribution to a thread is "people who disagree with me should be shot."

- - - Updated - - -

They had released catchup mechanics to bypass older content with new content as early as TBC. A fresh 70 could easily progress into BT and then Sunwell without ever stepping foot in Tier 4 or 5 raids by the end of the expansion. They may do it in a different way now, but the end result is largely the same.

The catchup mechanics in TBC took incredibly huge time investments. It was WAY faster to just run the old raids. You could get the gear in a couple of clears that would literally take you months of grinding if you relied on the catch up systems alone.

- - - Updated - - -

Okay, sure, I can see that, but I personally disagree with that for one simple reason.
That's quite literally what it's like currently. (Prior to Fated.)
Cosmetics are stuff like Transmogs, Titles, Mounts. All of which are things that you can actively get by doing old raids already. Granted, I do wish that there was more cosmetic reward. That I can absolutely agree with. However, I do not want to be doing that content all of the time if it isn't challenging, in my personal opinion. Doing old transmog runs and mount runs can be fun and all, but it gets mind numbing to do easy and mindless content nonstop. Imagine doing difficult content for consistent cosmetic reward. Best of both worlds?

Tl;dr - I want old raids to be brought up to the current standard. Or, perhaps a tier behind current standard - like they're doing with WotLK classic. They're making massive strides towards that. More content to do, to choose to do, only increases replay value.

Going into old raids and sneezing on enemies to kill them isn't exactly the most thrilling way to experience the mechanics. You literally just said you disagree with me and then two sentences later started describing the problem with the content becoming "mind numbing" when it is deprecated.

I don't care if content is challenging. I care if content is fun. Challenge is one lever to make content fun, but the idea that it is the only lever that exists is exactly the cancer at the heart of wow's development and its community.

[shanthi]

The catchup mechanics in TBC took incredibly huge time investments. It was WAY faster to just run the old raids. You could get the gear in a couple of clears that would literally take you months of grinding if you relied on the catch up systems alone.

Okay, so BC was the last time you enjoyed WoW? Because starting with Wrath, catch-up mechanics were the norm and they were easier than progressing old raid tiers with a group. New dungeons gave gear to get you ready to start the new tier, new emblems gave gear to get you ready to start the new tier. Since then, the catch-up mechanics haven't always been the same, but they've always been there.

So when people say that this is always how things were, we can at least amend that to "Since Wrath." Which launched like 13 years ago. Seems a bit weird to be complaining about this now. The idea that a new player should have to find a group to progress every tier of the expansion to get to the current content is massively outdated.

[NineSpine]

Okay, so BC was the last time you enjoyed WoW? Because starting with Wrath, catch-up mechanics were the norm and they were easier than progressing old raid tiers with a group. New dungeons gave gear to get you ready to start the new tier, new emblems gave gear to get you ready to start the new tier. Since then, the catch-up mechanics haven't always been the same, but they've always been there.

So when people say that this is always how things were, we can at least amend that to "Since Wrath." Which launched like 13 years ago. Seems a bit weird to be complaining about this now. The idea that a new player should have to find a group to progress every tier of the expansion to get to the current content is massively outdated.

I only took issue with the idea that wow has "always" been this way and that "seasons" just mean "patches".

I didn't say to get rid of seasons.

[shanthi]

I only took issue with the idea that wow has "always" been this way and that "seasons" just mean "patches".

I didn't say to get rid of seasons.

Sorry, I must have conflated you with someone else in the course of reading through the thread.

I'd say that at least since Wrath, tiers have roughly been what seasons are now. I think they simply rebranded them for two reasons: 1. to line them up with the concept of PvP seasons and 2. to give them more of an esports vibe.

[NineSpine]

Sorry, I must have conflated you with someone else in the course of reading through the thread.

I'd say that at least since Wrath, tiers have roughly been what seasons are now. I think they simply rebranded them for two reasons: 1. to line them up with the concept of PvP seasons and 2. to give them more of an esports vibe.

It's been a gradual shift. Vanilla had nothing like seasons, and then things became more and more "seasonal" every expansion until Legion really solidified it.

[FelPlague]

I don't think that's the only reason people dislike seasons. I dislike seasons because I don't like deprecating old content.

My complaint you were quoting is about everything needing to be part of the endgame gearing progression loop, which I could have been clearer about. WoW needs more isolated, evergreen systems. For example, rather than trying to figure out how to make old raids a part of the endgame gearing progression loop, create an evergreen fixed-gear-level version of old raids and have them reward cosmetics. There are a lot of directions to go in, but instead they try to make everything part of endgame gearing progression which necessarily means you deprecate it eventually.

So now players are spread out over 100 raids, imagine trying to find a group for them.
now imagine about 90% of the players dont even need to do the old raids cause they already have all the transmog and stuff from them.

so now you have only 10% of the playerbase spread out 100 raids, with the 90% only doing the current newer raids.
imagine how fucking impossible it would be to get a group.

- - - Updated - - -

It's been a gradual shift. Vanilla had nothing like seasons, and then things became more and more "seasonal" every expansion until Legion really solidified it.

nah, they 100% had seasons, by the time nax came out there was no reason to do molten core or even BWL really, the newer raids were just as easy, and open world content and dungeons gave better gear, so you just skipped them, same with TBC, you didnt need to do kara anymore, or even ZA, you could just do dungeons and get gear to do black temple.
same with wotlk, once a new raid comes out the old one is irrelevent.

[shanthi]

It's been a gradual shift. Vanilla had nothing like seasons, and then things became more and more "seasonal" every expansion until Legion really solidified it.

We're going to have to agree to disagree. If you're defining "seasons" as "invalidating the instances that came before it and allowing people to start fresh," that was 100% the case and solidified by Wrath. Vanilla and BC are more arguable, I suppose...that's where I'd say any "gradual shift" occurred.

[NineSpine]

We're going to have to agree to disagree. If you're defining "seasons" as "invalidating the instances that came before it and allowing people to start fresh," that was 100% the case and solidified by Wrath. Vanilla and BC are more arguable, I suppose...that's where I'd say any "gradual shift" occurred.

If you think the model of WoTLK was identical to the model of Legion, I don't really know what to tell you. Legion included systems where world drops changed to a new baseline every patch, and the M+ systems was introduced with a strict seasonal model. The idea that this is no more seasonal than WoTLK is just ridiculous to me.

- - - Updated - - -

So now players are spread out over 100 raids, imagine trying to find a group for them.
now imagine about 90% of the players dont even need to do the old raids cause they already have all the transmog and stuff from them.

so now you have only 10% of the playerbase spread out 100 raids, with the 90% only doing the current newer raids.
imagine how fucking impossible it would be to get a group.

Weirdly, this problem never arises with games that use more evergreen models. It's almost like the "WoW doesnt do it this way, therefore it cant work" crowd needs to spend 5 minutes playing a video game besides wow.

nah, they 100% had seasons, by the time nax came out there was no reason to do molten core or even BWL really, the newer raids were just as easy, and open world content and dungeons gave better gear, so you just skipped them, same with TBC, you didnt need to do kara anymore, or even ZA, you could just do dungeons and get gear to do black temple.
same with wotlk, once a new raid comes out the old one is irrelevent.

If you think dungeon gear was better than BWL or AQ gear, you are living in such a deranged fantasy world that any discussion isn't worth having.