[TV] She-Hulk: Attorney at Law (*SPOILERS*)

[rhorle]

No matter how much 4 people jerk themselves off in this echo chamber attempting to gaslight others, show was bad, worst from all the MCU tv shows by far, with the lowest audience score and they don't know what the fuck they are talking about.

You didn't even offer a reasonable explanation for a plot hole in She-Hulk after you said you would. It is strange how you pretend that you are not doing the same things you accuse other of doing. The writing on the show wasn't bad it just wasn't great.

[Svifnymr]

Hmmm, guess I might have to give a rewatch. I was focused entirely on her having to learn that what she was doing was wrong and for whatever reason came away with the idea that she had learned that lesson by the end of wandavision through her fight with Agatha. Which is why her actions in MoM felt like somewhat of a heel turn on that growth to me.

It was very clear that she knew what she was doing, but from a mental illness angle, I just got the impression that she had at least somewhat resolved it by the end. Where you say "Don't see her turn to villainy throughout", to me, it was more noticing her "turning" to villainy rather than having already done it, despite what she's done so far. I might have just cut her way more slack.

I am not quite as skilled at articulating what I want to say at times, so I hope I'm coming across clearly.

If you (like me) missed it, the heel turn was in a post credit scene of the final episode of Wandavision, showing her there studying the bad book.

I didn't really care for either the series or the movie, so don't really have much more on it. I would say that Wanda can be evil, and yet Agatha also can be evil too, I mean villains can fight each other. Not like there's a maximum evil level.

[Darththeo]

So Endus like to twist a lot of shit up, but she left not because they were unable to make her pay for her crimes, they didn't even attempt shit, Monica let her be, she maybe though since she help stop Agatha she could get out. But not even Strange or the Sorcerer supreme step in, as an incident they obviously should.(It gets even DUMBER, when all the products they advertised between the episodes were supposed to be Strange reaching her, trying to help, and they scrapped).

Second, you are right about the movie not making sense, they re-wrote the movie that was supposed to have the Nightmare as villain, as you see, in the end of wandavision, she is looking for her kids with the Darkhold, and you hear then crying for help, Wanda would be somehow deceived by the villain, in the end, they both unite to fight Nightmare and Wanda actually would get her children.

This is all scrapped, and the movie is about Wanda just RLY wanting kids, when she could have adopted, get laid, or swept into an multiverse where the kids lost their wanda

Do you read Endus' posts at all? Because that isn't what Endus said.

He didn't say that they were unable to arrest Wanda. He said she left before they were able to do anything ... this is a completely different sentence. Seriously, essentially he said Wanda left before they could even attempt arresting her to punish her. All you did was rephrase what Endus' said and said Endus is the one twisting things.

Also, the Nightmare was scrapped way early into writing the script. While it was floated around, once Multiverse of Madness came after No Way Home, it was considered too difficult to do Nightmare. And the commercials being Strange were scrapped because as Phase 4 developed they created other plans, but for some reason decided to keep the commercial breaks.

- - - Updated - - -

If you (like me) missed it, the heel turn was in a post credit scene of the final episode of Wandavision, showing her there studying the bad book.

I didn't really care for either the series or the movie, so don't really have much more on it. I would say that Wanda can be evil, and yet Agatha also can be evil too, I mean villains can fight each other. Not like there's a maximum evil level.

There are tons of villains that fight each other. We don't see that much in the MCU, the closest is in What If?

There are stories where Dr. Doom fights other villains. I think Magneto does a few times too. The funniest thing is with the DC and Marvel crossovers where you have Joker team up with Red Skull and then Joker finds out Red Skull is a nazi and decides that is time to fight him. Villains fighting villains work can work well in movies or shows.

Honestly, part of me is hoping when Dr Doom makes his MCU debut he is able to show how powerful he is by defeating villains the heroes struggle with.

[paxen]

Can't believe that just 9 episodes of 30s minute launched a thread with 3400 posts.

It's actual zombies who watched some youtube videos and got their entire worldview from it.

Oh and people who like to argue with zombies for some reason.

[Endus]

So Endus like to twist a lot of shit up, but she left not because they were unable to make her pay for her crimes, they didn't even attempt shit, Monica let her be, she maybe though since she help stop Agatha she could get out. But not even Strange or the Sorcerer supreme step in, as an incident they obviously should.(It gets even DUMBER, when all the products they advertised between the episodes were supposed to be Strange reaching her, trying to help, and they scrapped).

She walked away because SWORD had literally no means by which to arrest her. No technology that would give them any degree of control and limit her powers, which can reshape reality itself on the molecular or atomic level.

Also, Agatha's entire purpose was stopping Wanda. Wanda's the threat. Wanda's the only person Agatha hurts in any way whatsoever. Agatha's the one trying to stop an out-of-control monster who's terrorizing a town. She's a hero. She only gets framed as a villain because the in-town stuff is largely framed from Wanda's point of view, because she's in control.

Second, you are right about the movie not making sense, they re-wrote the movie that was supposed to have the Nightmare as villain, as you see, in the end of wandavision, she is looking for her kids with the Darkhold, and you hear then crying for help, Wanda would be somehow deceived by the villain, in the end, they both unite to fight Nightmare and Wanda actually would get her children.

There's no missing Nightmare presence in the show. Even if writers considered it early on, nothing in the show hints or teases anything about the Dream Dimension or Nightmare in particular. She does hear her kids in the finale. That's not a dream. And we know this to be true because in Multiverse of Madness she invades other realities looking for them. And finds them.

Even if something is luring her down a dark path, you already have the Darkhold right there which canonically does exactly that, and you don't need another villain. to explain anything.

This is all scrapped, and the movie is about Wanda just RLY wanting kids, when she could have adopted, get laid, or swept into an multiverse where the kids lost their wanda

She doesn't want any kids. She wants her kids. Again, you're making up shit that's directly contradicted by the text of the show itself.

[paxen]

If you (like me) missed it, the heel turn was in a post credit scene of the final episode of Wandavision, showing her there studying the bad book.

Yeah, I think the fact that the heel turn happened in the post credit scene is a clear indication that Wandavision was not all that connected to DSITMOM. The story they tell in Wandavision, which I happen to think they missed on, is about a hero driven into deep denial, and is using her powers to reshape the universe around her unwittingly. Wanda of Wandavision is not a villain, she's a victim of trauma and her own powers.

But she is still the antagonist of the story they tell, even if she's supposedly the protagonist of the show. Frozen handled this type of story much better, tbh. Wandavision shies away from examining exactly how far Wanda went and the suffering she inflicted.

Now, DSITMOM wanted a "classic" baby-crazy evil mom, which is what they inserted into the post-credit scene. I think that scene is a part of DSITMOM and was probably made by that crew, and not the Wandavision series proper.

[Endus]

Do you read Endus' posts at all? Because that isn't what Endus said.

He didn't say that they were unable to arrest Wanda. He said she left before they were able to do anything ... this is a completely different sentence. Seriously, essentially he said Wanda left before they could even attempt arresting her to punish her. All you did was rephrase what Endus' said and said Endus is the one twisting things.

Well, it's also that they literally don't have any means by which to arrest her. They spent the entire show trying to stop her, and literally nothing they did had any effect beyond marginally annoying Wanda. They pose as much of a threat to her as, say, a bumblebee.

There are tons of villains that fight each other. We don't see that much in the MCU, the closest is in What If?

Agatha could be evil. But I'll still argue that, based on what we see in Wandavision, there's absolutely no evidence she actually is evil. Her motives seem explicitly heroic. Her methods might be more manipulative, but her goal was to try and get Wanda to stop hurting innocents voluntarily rather than trying to force her, which she had to figure was riskier.

I think it's more likely she walks a line between, serving a role akin to the Sorceror Supreme in keeping magic nonsense from hurting innocents, but perhaps in a more overtly self-serving manner. But "evil" seems way too far.

[paxen]

Agatha could be evil. But I'll still argue that, based on what we see in Wandavision, there's absolutely no evidence she actually is evil. Her motives seem explicitly heroic. Her methods might be more manipulative, but her goal was to try and get Wanda to stop hurting innocents voluntarily rather than trying to force her, which she had to figure was riskier.

I think it's more likely she walks a line between, serving a role akin to the Sorceror Supreme in keeping magic nonsense from hurting innocents, but perhaps in a more overtly self-serving manner. But "evil" seems way too far.

Yeah, I agree that Agatha was one of the good guys in Wandavision, and it's also part of what annoys me with that show. To use some perhaps misplaced lingo, the show never breaks kayfabe about Wanda being the hero. The actual events of the show is Wanda terrorizing a small town and Agatha trying to stop her and they only succeed once it breaks through to Wanda what's she's doing.

But the feel, the emotions evoked never, ever waver from the idea that Wanda is the tragic victim of the tale and Agatha is an evil witch attacking her.

And emotions are paramount in TV and cinema. The format excels at manipulating our emotions, but you gotta line it up with the story you're telling, and I'd argue that Wandavision fails miserably here.

[Endus]

Yeah, I agree that Agatha was one of the good guys in Wandavision, and it's also part of what annoys me with that show. To use some perhaps misplaced lingo, the show never breaks kayfabe about Wanda being the hero. The actual events of the show is Wanda terrorizing a small town and Agatha trying to stop her and they only succeed once it breaks through to Wanda what's she's doing.

But the feel, the emotions evoked never, ever waver from the idea that Wanda is the tragic victim of the tale and Agatha is an evil witch attacking her.

And emotions are paramount in TV and cinema. The format excels at manipulating our emotions, but you gotta line it up with the story you're telling, and I'd argue that Wandavision fails miserably here.

It's one of the things the show did almost right. The problem is most of the show is within Wanda's purview, even after she drops the sitcom trappings of earlier episodes, so everything is framed by Wanda's perspective. It's probably too subtly done to be effective, but a lot of things (like Agatha's overt characterization) don't actually hold up to scrutiny. It's the same way everyone around Wanda is happy and friendly, until Agatha snaps them out of the spell and they plead with Wanda to end their suffering. Even the audience doesn't really see that, outside of the one time Vision goes to the outer fringes and sees everyone stuck in a cycle. But even there, the only "suffering" he sees is Agatha, who, obviously, is just lying to try and get him to see the deeper truth, since Wanda's control is too tight for him to get that info from any of the actual victims.

I'll agree the show didn't pull this off, but I don't really think there's another legitimate interpretation once you start analysing it properly. It's like realizing a story is being told by an unreliable narrator.

[rhorle]

Also, Agatha's entire purpose was stopping Wanda. Wanda's the threat. Wanda's the only person Agatha hurts in any way whatsoever. Agatha's the one trying to stop an out-of-control monster who's terrorizing a town. She's a hero. She only gets framed as a villain because the in-town stuff is largely framed from Wanda's point of view, because she's in control.

Did we watch the same show? Agatha wanted to take her power/spells. She didn't care about stopping her as she even offered to correct the spell so Wanda could live out her life with her husband and kids in the "fictional" town. The final battle was her absorbing the power of Wanda. She did kill the dog Sparky even if it might have been conjured from magic.

She is hardly a hero just a more neutral villain at that time. They did toy with making her a mentor figure but decided to have her as an antagonist instead.

[Surfd]

It doesn't matter the point of the "meta narrative". The show was bad writing, and its not on purpose just to break the 4th wall, but because the writers did a bad job.

I'm just curious, but when you go to the Circus, do you bitterly complain about the fact that the clowns kept tripping over things, falling down, and running into each other?

- - - Updated - - -

Did we watch the same show? Agatha wanted to take her power/spells. She didn't care about stopping her as she even offered to correct the spell so Wanda could live out her life with her husband and kids in the "fictional" town. The final battle was her absorbing the power of Wanda. She did kill the dog Sparky even if it might have been conjured from magic.

Yes, she is shown as wanting to take Wanda's powers, but you have to ask yourself: How much of that was framed as "her just straight wanting power", and how much of that was framed as "this is an adult trying to get a kid throwing a tantrum to hand them the loaded revolver before the kid blasts someone with it".

[rhorle]

Yes, she is shown as wanting to take Wanda's powers, but you have to ask yourself: How much of that was framed as "her just straight wanting power", and how much of that was framed as "this is an adult trying to get a kid throwing a tantrum to hand them the loaded revolver before the kid blasts someone with it".

None of it? We even see her absorb, and kill, her coven. Granted they were trying to punish, and kill, her at the time. She isn't a super hero that is for sure. She want there because of the powerful magic she sensed and wanted to steal it for herself. Her goal wasn't to "stop anyone from being shot" but to learn the spells and steal the power. Like I said she offered to keep everyone enslaved and correct the spell. She just wanted the gun but would gladly blast someone for "the kid" in exchange.

[Endus]

Did we watch the same show? Agatha wanted to take her power/spells. She didn't care about stopping her as she even offered to correct the spell so Wanda could live out her life with her husband and kids in the "fictional" town. The final battle was her absorbing the power of Wanda. She did kill the dog Sparky even if it might have been conjured from magic.

Hard to take Sparky's death as valid when it's only presented in a campy sitcom intro.

She wanted to take Wanda's power because Wanda could not control it and would present too much of an ongoing danger. Agatha's been holding on to the Darkhold for literally centuries without any real observable corruption. We don't even know how legitimate her offer was to Wanda; she could have been lying to take her power away and leave her with nothing.

Seriously, other than the "I killed Sparky" line, which as I noted above shouldn't be taken seriously, name one evil thing Agatha does. Note that scaring the figments of Wanda's delusion (her kids) won't qualify, either. Yes, she tries to take Wanda's power. Wanda's currently using that power to enslave and torture an entire small town.

- - - Updated - - -

None of it? We even see her absorb, and kill, her coven. Granted they were trying to punish, and kill, her at the time.

She literally waits until her coven tries to kill her and then turns that killing spell back on them. It's clear self defense, especially given her "crimes" were just "not doing what the coven ordered her to".

She isn't a super hero that is for sure. She want there because of the powerful magic she sensed and wanted to steal it for herself.

Which Wanda was in the middle of using to torture and enslave a small town of people. You keep ignoring that.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

This is all scrapped, and the movie is about Wanda just RLY wanting kids, when she could have adopted, get laid, or swept into an multiverse where the kids lost their wanda

The movie literally covers the fact that she wants her specific kids and that she won’t just let American drop her off in a different verse where she could have them as she wants the reassurance that if they ever got sick or hurt she could go to another verse and get them again and/or heal them.

Like really do you even watch the stuff you complain about?

[rhorle]

Seriously, other than the "I killed Sparky" line, which as I noted above shouldn't be taken seriously, name one evil thing Agatha does. Note that scaring the figments of Wanda's delusion (her kids) won't qualify, either. Yes, she tries to take Wanda's power. Wanda's currently using that power to enslave and torture an entire small town.

Offers to keep the people enslaved. Has the power to release them at any time but only does so when fighting Wanda. Even her own words to Wanda about Heroes not torturing people indicates that she doesn't see herself as a Hero. As she was fine with the residents being tortured and fine with torturing Wanda. All so she can absorb life essence and/or power.

It is hilarious you claim I'm ignoring something as you ignore the actions of Agatha who chooses not to free the town and offers to do keep them enslaved forever. It is amusing though how Agatha trying to manipulate Wanda into voluntarily giving her power away has also manipulated you into thinking she is a hero that wanted to save Westbrook.

[Syegfryed]

Like really do you even watch the stuff you complain about?

do you even watch the movie saying there is a unlimited amount of multiveses and she could just, you know, go into a multiverse where there is those specific kids that lost their Wanda? Giving bullshit explanations like "if they get sick" doesn't stop being a bullshit explanation, they handled the movie poorly.

You just want to be a contrarian.

- - - Updated - - -

Now people are discussing if Agatha was a a villain or if she was trying to help Wanda, just like some people here live in another reality. Wahts enxt? she-hulk was a good written show? lol

I'm just curious, but when you go to the Circus, do you bitterly complain about the fact that the clowns kept tripping over things, falling down, and running into each other?

I would complain if a fireman set houses on fire just so they could stop the fire

Pretending the writers did a shit job because they intended to do a shit job is like next level absurd.

[rhorle]

do you even watch the movie saying there is a unlimited amount of multiveses and she could just, you know, go into a multiverse where there is those specific kids that lost their Wanda? Giving bullshit explanations like "if they get sick" doesn't stop being a bullshit explanation, they handled the movie poorly.

Could she have kept searching? Sure. She choose not to. She was already going to 838 because that is where America was. When she took over Wanda 838 she likely got some of her emotions. Twisted by grief and the Darkhold she focused on the 838 kids instead of others. They were something she experienced and something with in reach. If she had the power of America she might not have picked them as a first choice.

It isn't handled poorly just something you don 't like.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

do you even watch the movie saying there is a unlimited amount of multiveses and she could just, you know, go into a multiverse where there is those specific kids that lost their Wanda? Giving bullshit explanations like "if they get sick" doesn't stop being a bullshit explanation, they handled the movie poorly.

You just want to be a contrarian.

You ignore what actually happens in movies/shows to make up bullshit complaints you argue about for pages through out multiples pages and I’m the contrarian?

[Syegfryed]

You ignore what actually happens in movies/shows to make up bullshit complaints you argue about for pages through out multiples pages and I’m the contrarian?

You are the one that came up your way, you took your time to quote me and be contrarian to my posts. If it was rly "bullshit" you would not be here trying to validate yourself, but you, like the others, have to.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

You are the one that came up your way, you took your time to quote me and be contrarian to my posts. If it was rly "bullshit" you would not be here trying to validate yourself, but you, like the others, have to.

Has it ever occurred to you that Mabye your just wrong about stuff and people quote and correct you both to have a discussion about it and so other people reading the forum won’t be misinformed by your incorrect statements?

Your not a victim mate all the mean contrarians aren’t targeting you just to pick a fight when they know your actually right. Your just wrong about a ton of stuff and incredibly confident in being wrong.