What is the key to defeating Raszageth HC with a pug?

[Spoonman]

Hey all

Ive been doing a lot of pugs this raid and this boss seem to be insanely overtuned compared to everything else or there must be something im missing

Im at 7/8 HC and have managed to pug 2/8 in Mythic. All of this have been done with a raid with highest ilvl of 405

However with a 405 ilvl raid I still dont have a chance on Raszageth HC

There are 2 major problems,

1. The setup

The encounter have tough dps checks and because of this it seem difficult to go as a healer heavy setup but if u dont go healer heavy then healers doesnt have a chance to heal this at all.

I still have no idea what exactly is the perfect setup for this as everything ive tried feels awful

2. The talent trees

Because of the new talent tree system seperating aoe spells/abilities and single target ones creating huge difference in builds then some players tend to go with ST build on this boss and some player tend to use AoE builds.

The problem is that if not everyone is AoE speced u dont make Phase 2 dps check and if everyone isnt ST speced u dont make phase 1 and phase 4 DPS Checks.

With that said, every encounter ive pugged have been completed by 1 thing. Gear
With a high enough ilvl bosses eventualy falls over by themselves but I just cant belive that it would require a 410 ilvl raid to defeat this?

[Throwme]

Gear

And the other thing that can be hard to get with a pug: Skill.

That's what you need. Simple as that. No need for further discussion back and forth, because those two things are what it boils down to. The gear required for the kill to even be possible and the skills required to actually get it done.

[Spoonman]

And the other thing that can be hard to get with a pug: Skill.

That's what you need. Simple as that. No need for further discussion back and forth, because those two things are what it boils down to. The gear required for the kill to even be possible and the skills required to actually get it done.

But there is nothing diffuclt mechanic wise? The fight is basicly just about failing dps checks in different phases?

There must be some setup that feels better than others and a ratio of how many of the DPS specs are ST specced and how many are AoE speced etc?

Phase 1 not making it to 65% before 2nd spark + pushback combo = wipe (you wipe on this when there are too many people aoe speced)
Phase 2, not clearing platforms before stormsurge = wipe (you wipe on this when there are too many people ST speced)
Phase 3, not DPSing thru stormsurge = wipe (you wipe on this when there are too many people aoe speced)
Phase 4, not enough DPS to kill it before room ends = wipe (you wipe on this when there are too many people aoe speced)

If it was possible to change talents mid fight or if we had the old talent system this would be extremely easy

[Subrias]

Considering a lot of guilds can do 2 or 3 mythic bosses before killing heroic razafeth. It just means wither the boss is over tuned, or bliz likes it to be hard so you can't just pug it. Pugs are cool and all, but I feel like they do lfr and normal for pug friendliness. Heroic is for the guilds who have good players but not 20, and mythic is for the hardcore people.

[AleksaMaster]

I killed it in pug 2 weeks ago. First of all, take only people who are 7/8 HC because that means they already had some tries on heroic raz before. Then check logs, and take only people with good logs, no exceptions. And have everyone on voice, its much easier. Dont take many hunters, its hard for them to survive phase 2. Have healing cds assigned for p2, and personals, and rallying cry, darkness. Gate and roar for push backs. And you need about hour or two of trying, which means patient group. And first time when everyone manages to survive p2 you know you will kill boss in next few pulls.

[potis]

But there is nothing diffuclt mechanic wise? The fight is basicly just about failing dps checks in different phases?

Dont forget this is end content for many people like my guild which we only go AOTC/Glory and take 2-3 month breaks from raiding each tier.

The last boss and usually previous is always harder than it should be, either more compicated for this reason, it aint supposed to be a totally freebie unless you are a true top guild, or unless you have decent coordination/class management.

As example you mention DPS checks, when its also healing checks, we just reached her and have a few tries on here, but you can see a few painful healing overlaps for lesser geared raids.

Also because i was bored yesterday i checked the World Frist and then an average kill Youtube brought up, its night and day between the skill and movement of players, that average guild has the same problem we have, its like everyone has CoViD or they havent showered in weeks and grouping up is a hard thing to do, while Liquid move like a fluid well made song.

Everything counts in a bit more tuned tightly for the gear fights and mostly players skill.

Being able to calmly play and dont forget basic shit because you arent always on edge, is a skill.

Pugging is gonna be the shame, you need time to get each person to learn to respond to the big aoes basically (Knock into sparks into explosion in P1 as example), obviously overDPSing will skip a few things which is why they are there, you aint supposed to get the second Sparks+Hurricane, well you are, but its an indication that its difficult and can be skipped by DPS.

[rogoth]

the key is to make sure everyone does what they are supposed to do while also maintaining their rotations and outputting enough performance to satisfy the mathematics of the encounter, simple as that really.

[Spoonman]

the key is to make sure everyone does what they are supposed to do while also maintaining their rotations and outputting enough performance to satisfy the mathematics of the encounter, simple as that really.

Exactly and based on this equation where do we land in terms of average ilevel of the raid?

[rogoth]

Exactly and based on this equation where do we land in terms of average ilevel of the raid?

from doing some basic research the latest kills show an avg raid ilvl for this encounter is closer to 410 so i would say that's a good benchmark to aim for.

[DazManianDevil]

Yes this fight is way harder than anything else in Heroic.
That being said, a few things my group found successful were to use a WA to assign P1 soak puddles, 1 right behind the boss maybe 8yards and the other 2 to africa, this allowed melee more uptime. Our group is average 405ilvl and we push Raz 5-10 seconds after spark dispels, with 27 players.
Most of our dps are ST with a few that can cleave, you really don't need much AoE on this fight, no reason to stress that imo. We also run double prot warrior which doesn't hurt.
After first add platform dies, with our timings we have dps save CDs for whichever of the 3 shields they can, using 2nd potion on 2nd or 3rd shield depending on their CDs.
For us the biggest issue that leads to success or wipe is how fast and smoothly players with negative/positive debuff move to their spot, don't spread covid and then pump. When this movement is smooth, the shields die and my health bar barely moves, and I play squishy Hunter.
After that the fight is practically free. 2 big adds that die pretty fast and when the little adds spawn just RoP and AoE slow.

Last phase dps and healers stack on a marker around the 6oclock mark, debuff goes to mark around 3oclock. The suction pulls you out of breath, lightning debuff runs out etc, kill boss.
Sadly you probably won't meet these dps checks and breakpoints unless the group is very overgeared, @rogoth mentioned 410 which is probably when you can start to brute force timers with sloppy play which is common in PuGs.

Good luck on killing the dargon!

[Woobels]

You can't really rawdog pug this boss, too much coordination required and mistakes lead to instantly not making throughput checks. As you said 2/8 mythic is considerably easier than 8/8HC to get in a pug context (or a coordinated raid) I'm like 90% sure they will tone Raszageth down though, until then I wouldn't go with a party below like 408ilvl on average. Get a bunch of evoker healers that know what they're doing too.

[Gaidax]

There are various one-shot mechanics, where no amount of gear will fix stupid. If people get blown off the platform or oneshot by the flyby mechanic - even ilvl 430 won't help there.

But other than that, I think full raid of ilvl 410+ would make a short work of it.

[Nymrohd]

There are various one-shot mechanics, where no amount of gear will fix stupid. If people get blown off the platform or oneshot by the flyby mechanic - even ilvl 430 won't help there.

But other than that, I think full raid of ilvl 410+ would make a short work of it.

I mean people will die to these on normal and LFR too.
The thing is, if people are blown off the platform a lot, instead of just blaming them, maybe look at how static cling is dropped; it will probably be dropped very poorly. If people are dying to the breath on the side platforms, maybe the tank should be moving the mob out of the breath path ahead of time.

[Gaidax]

I mean people will die to these on normal and LFR too.
The thing is, if people are blown off the platform a lot, instead of just blaming them, maybe look at how static cling is dropped; it will probably be dropped very poorly. If people are dying to the breath on the side platforms, maybe the tank should be moving the mob out of the breath path ahead of time.

Ehh... it's not some rocket science to take a moment to look where static is actually is - unless it's some complete idiocy usually problem is the people that get blown off simply did not bother to look.

And bruh, ppl who die to breath - that's 100% on them.

I don't understand this instant rush to blame others for personal fuckups. Man I got blown off/up because static had a gap or tank did not move fast enough. Just open your damn eyes when the alert comes.

It's like these cringelords who go "it was lag" every time they fuckup.

[Nymrohd]

Ehh... it's not some rocket science to take a moment to look where static is actually is - unless it's some complete idiocy usually problem is the people that get blown off simply did not bother to look.

And bruh, ppl who die to breath - that's 100% on them.

I don't understand this instant rush to blame others for personal fuckups. Man I got blown off/up because static had a gap or tank did not move fast enough. Just open your damn eyes when the alert comes.

It's like these cringelords who go "it was lag" every time they fuckup.

Well as a raid leader I try to find a way to mitigate fuck ups and make it easier for the group to succeed. It is a better use of my time.

[Gaidax]

Well as a raid leader I try to find a way to mitigate fuck ups and make it easier for the group to succeed. It is a better use of my time.

That's wonderful, but if people die to breath on side platforms - it's REALLY on them. Tank being a bit too slow does not mean you can't be quicker.

Same goes for static and P3 breaths - it's personal responsibility time. Sometimes shit is just inconvenient, but you know it's coming so looking around IS warranted, instead of assuming whoever has the marker or some such is perfection.

[Nymrohd]

That's wonderful, but if people die to breath on side platforms - it's REALLY on them. Tank being a bit too slow does not mean you can't be quicker.

Same goes for static and P3 breaths - it's personal responsibility time. Sometimes shit is just inconvenient, but you know it's coming so looking around IS warranted, instead of assuming whoever has the marker or some such is perfection.

Look I agree with p3 breaths because we cannot control the damn add anyway. But moving the adds out of the breath spot is already something the tank should be doing. And if the cling is very poorly placed, it can definitely make everyone's life much harder with hurricane. If you are progressing in these, the easier you make the mechanics for everyone, the less dps lost.

[Gaidax]

Look I agree with p3 breaths because we cannot control the damn add anyway. But moving the adds out of the breath spot is already something the tank should be doing. And if the cling is very poorly placed, it can definitely make everyone's life much harder with hurricane. If you are progressing in these, the easier you make the mechanics for everyone, the less dps lost.

And tanks are usually doing it just fine, when half your raid dies to breath - there is a place for optimization, but if it's 1-2 people - then bruh it's on them.

And that's where vast majority of wipes happen on Raz, you simply run out of people and resses and then you can't pass the DPS checks. Because every pull someone just gets flattened by breath or falls off. Royal raid-wide fuckups usually end very fast and then it's personal responsibility.

Because bruh, if you are clocking 50+ pulls on Raz and someone dies to breath/fall off - it's really personal mistake there. Heck I seen ppl die to Raz frontal lazer 50+ pulls in - add that to the pile.

No ilvl helps there.

[brynhildrprot]

I am not gonna lie I giga lucked out on both Broodkeeper and Rasz kills.

One shot both of them on heroic because I had high M+ io and people assumed I knew what I was doing, I did not.

Have since been just running 7/8HC 2/8M runs for the loot since rasz doesnt offer any upgrades for me.

So, idk what advice to offer to you? Get 415ilvl and 3k rio, get Lucky and get invited into a guild grp one shot?

[aimercj]

The only difference is you need to take people who are actually decent, whereas the rest of heroic people just take green parsing players so long as they are a certain ilevel. Bring a bunch of purple/orange parsing dps and it's not hard.