The Cat Guide - 4.3

[Minotaure]

Hello, I would like to start by saying this is a excellent guide to help people understand and ease the process from wotlk to cata. My main reason for posting is to get a better grasp on the hit capping and exp. capping, either from gemming/chanting and or reforging. I have read your guild and it says that hit and exp. are a very minor stat now compared to agi and mastery, so does that mean we can partially ignore it now?

Was whacking the lvl 83 dummy last night while hit capped[ 10 agi + 10 hit in about 4 red sockets, and about 3 20+ hit gems] and was peaking about 12.5k dps and sustaining about 11k. After doing that, went and regemmed pretty much all the 10+ agi/hit to 20 agi gems and replaced 2 of the 20 hit gems[one being in distant land to a nightmare tear, also removed the badge cloak which had a 20 hit gem and equipped Shadowvault Slayers cloak (277). After regemming to maximize agi+mastery, i was missing a fair bit and seemed to mess up my rotation, but was do-able. I didnt really see much of a Dps increase, possibly a slight 500-700 dps increase.

So pretty much I'm a bit confused as to if i should be gemming for hit/exp. cap. I have some options of gear i could swap in such as,
Sack of Awesome (277)
Seal of many mouths (277)
Oathbinder, Charge of the Ranger-general (271)
Hurkuml war token (264)

Also, I would like do know if its still viable To gem agi/haste or would be agi+crit? Currently I have all agi+haste gems and reforged my mastery to haste. I'm Not crit capping unbuffed atm, but with Death choice + Dwb (agi proc) I come very close. Havent checked in raid yet. will update asap.

Thanks for taking the time to read, hopefully I can get this sorted tonight.

Unable to post a armory Link atm
Server: Frostmourne - US
Character: Animalities
Faction : Horde

A 500-700 DPS increase isn't bad. It will probably improve more when you start getting used the misses in your rotation. It looks like you have a number of 277 pieces - you logged out in PvP gear, so I can't see all your PvE gear - so you may be at the gear level where Hit/Exp are worth more than Haste (and Crit, if you're over cap).

I would definitely suggest checking out Mew, the link is in the guide, to see the Relative Stat Values at your gear level. Basically, when you gem or reforge, you want to take away points from the stat with the lowest Relative Stat Value. Make sure to run the simulator several times while working on your gear, because the Relative Stat Values will change as your stats change.

You won't want to use Herkuml War Totem. Find a Crit trinket instead (or Death's Choice) and reforge it to Mastery.

EDIT: Just saw your glyphs. Armory won't show Prime Glyphs, but of your Major Glyphs, make sure to change Glyph of Ferocious Bite. One big Ferocious Bite is more efficient than a small one and a Shred.

[Xiation]

A 500-700 DPS increase isn't bad. It will probably improve more when you start getting used the misses in your rotation. It looks like you have a number of 277 pieces - you logged out in PvP gear, so I can't see all your PvE gear - so you may be at the gear level where Hit/Exp are worth more than Haste (and Crit, if you're over cap).

I would definitely suggest checking out Mew, the link is in the guide, to see the Relative Stat Values at your gear level. Basically, when you gem or reforge, you want to take away points from the stat with the lowest Relative Stat Value. Make sure to run the simulator several times while working on your gear, because the Relative Stat Values will change as your stats change.

You won't want to use Herkuml War Totem. Find a Crit trinket instead (or Death's Choice) and reforge it to Mastery.

Take a look my gear,
Asfyxiation - US-Thaurissan

I'm currently borderlining the crit cap when i'm raid buffed. But way below hit cap for that matter, and i just cant decide whether that 500-700 dps is worthwhile if you have to constantly be on your toes for possible misses in your skills.
That aside, i pulled lesser dps than an almost equally geared feral (cept he has wfs normal and heroic dbw) who is gemmed and equipped for hit/exp cap.

[Minotaure]

Take a look my gear,
Asfyxiation - US-Thaurissan

I'm currently borderlining the crit cap when i'm raid buffed. But way below hit cap for that matter, and i just cant decide whether that 500-700 dps is worthwhile if you have to constantly be on your toes for possible misses in your skills.
That aside, i pulled lesser dps than an almost equally geared feral (cept he has wfs normal and heroic dbw) who is gemmed and equipped for hit/exp cap.

Again, I would recommend checking out Mew. On which boss/raid did you pull lesser DPS than that other cat? How much less? Bleed uptimes really make the difference for us now, so compare yours and his in a parse, if you can. Misses shouldn't really affect our bleed uptimes, now that we can safely clip Bleeds, giving us a GCD or two of breathing room.

Also, try to replace Herkuml War Token. Haste is worth less than Crit, even at Crit Cap, and Hit/Exp are worth more than either at that point.

Someone mentioned this before (I think in this thread), but we should start getting used to playing with misses in our rotation. Come Cata, reaching Hit Cap won't be a goal of any class, since it will be either impossible or not worth the loss of other stats. The best raiders will learn to work around the misses and will be on their toes when it happens. Thankfully, our bleeds do most of our damage - and will do even more when we have gear with passive Mastery - and can't miss once applied. I believe the cats who do the greatest DPS will be the ones who can keep Rip up the most, even if they go a whole fight without using FB.

[Xiation]

Again, I would recommend checking out Mew. On which boss/raid did you pull lesser DPS than that other cat? How much less? Bleed uptimes really make the difference for us now, so compare yours and his in a parse, if you can. Misses shouldn't really affect our bleed uptimes, now that we can safely clip Bleeds, giving us a GCD or two of breathing room.

Also, try to replace Herkuml War Token. Haste is worth less than Crit, even at Crit Cap, and Hit/Exp are worth more than either at that point.

Someone mentioned this before (I think in this thread), but we should start getting used to playing with misses in our rotation. Come Cata, reaching Hit Cap won't be a goal of any class, since it will be either impossible or not worth the loss of other stats. The best raiders will learn to work around the misses and will be on their toes when it happens. Thankfully, our bleeds do most of our damage - and will do even more when we have gear with passive Mastery - and can't miss once applied. I believe the cats who do the greatest DPS will be the ones who can keep Rip up the most, even if they go a whole fight without using FB.

I enjoy the misses, it adds even more spice to the already difficult rotation we have, and i enjoy that difficulty, because with that comes huge numbers. It was on DBS, his was a longer fight and he pulled approx 500-700 more. However, he had a feral bear tanking, he could've saved a couple of GCD's as he didnt have to apply mangle nor FFF.

Unfortunately though, i do not have any other trinkets to replace HWT atm, unless i use spyglass for the crit :P

To add, i dont clip my bleeds even now, i usually still wait for them to drop off before immediately putting them up, what do you suggest would be a good time to clip them? And should you clip rip & rake regardless of what duration they have got remaining when you have the TF buff on?

[Deleted]

Anywhere during the last tick is a good time really. So in the last 3 seconds for rake, or the last 2 for rip.

[Minotaure]

I enjoy the misses, it adds even more spice to the already difficult rotation we have

True that.

and i enjoy that difficulty, because with that comes huge numbers.

Double true.

It was on DBS, his was a longer fight and he pulled approx 500-700 more. However, he had a feral bear tanking, he could've saved a couple of GCD's as he didnt have to apply mangle nor FFF.

Depending on the lengths, he may have had time to use Berserk twice. And his DBW may have procced again (it usually does for me, right after my second Berserk), which adds considerable DPS. And yes, the Bear tank would certainly help.

EDIT: Also, aligning bleed reapplications (especially Rake) with TF makes a difference.

Unfortunately though, i do not have any other trinkets to replace HWT atm, unless i use spyglass for the crit :P

To add, i dont clip my bleeds even now, i usually still wait for them to drop off before immediately putting them up, what do you suggest would be a good time to clip them? And should you clip rip & rake regardless of what duration they have got remaining when you have the TF buff on?

Check out Mihir's section on Trinkets. Even the Needle Encrusted Scorpion is a little bit better than Herkuml War Token, up until Crit Cap. But compare the difference in Mew before taking my word for it

Not clipping bleeds can be a hard habit to break, but Mihir is right about the times. Last 2 seconds for Rip, last 3 seconds for Rake. You'll need to get a bleed timer addon to help with this, if you don't already have one (go go Droodfocus!). Here's how it looks (without TimeToDie addition, which is also nice to have). I can't post links yet, so YouTube 'TehMinotaure feral dps'.

[Xiation]

I'm using Droodfocus too! Still don't know where's the config for the TimeToDie part of it however.
Yeh atm i do not have access to any other trinkets, and i do use Mew to compare as well, hopefully i'd get a better trinket coming my way so i can replace HWT!

[Deleted]

Updated the AoE section.

[Deleted]

Okey, got a question about the 4/5 t10 set bonus.

Maybe someone did mention about it in the previous 8 pages, but...



Is the 4/5 Set Bonus, after the change, still worth it?
'Cause I was thinking about going only 2/5, with chest of Gunship ICC25, shoulders from Lady and gloves from Rotface. So you're exp capped, with hit it wouldn't be much problem cause you can get the ring from Lord Marrowgar + you can use one, or two blue gems with 20 hit for the set bonuses (like in the chest, +8 agi? awesome imo.)

I believe 10% dmg increase of Rake is not worth it..



-edit-
You can also think about the helm from Prince Valanar which provides a lot of hit (98 is the heroic one).
But I am avoiding it since I have already a 277ilvl head of the set piece.




And how about u guyz?

[Deleted]

Its a 2-2.5% dmg increase. So if you feel you get more than 2% from swapping a T10 piece then go for it :P

[medloh]

WTB: AOE'ing for Dummies without Swipe.

If you're not worried about squeezing every last bit of DPS out of AOE situations, whats a good simple rule of thumb? New AOE section looks great but very complicated.

What about a special situation like pulling both groups of whelps in front of Sindragosa? I assume swipe spam would still win out at some point when the number targets gets very high, right?

[Minotaure]

WTB: AOE'ing for Dummies without Swipe.

If you're not worried about squeezing every last bit of DPS out of AOE situations, whats a good simple rule of thumb? New AOE section looks great but very complicated.

What about a special situation like pulling both groups of whelps in front of Sindragosa? I assume swipe spam would still win out at some point when the number targets gets very high, right?

I typically just Swipe in Heroics, unless the mobs are bigger (think HoL Golems) and have enough HP for Rake to tick. For the Sindy whelps, Swipe would certainly be ideal (and more fun). The same probably holds true for the pre-Lootship Alliance mobs, pre-LDW mobs, mobs at the very beginning of Plague Quarter, etc.

I think that the general rule is to apply Mangle/Rake to as many as possible if there's less than 6 or 7 mobs - or if the mobs [EDIT: aren't] going to die within 5 seconds. The trash in Blood Quarter would merit tab target bleeding, since there are only 4 or 5 a pull and they survive a bit longer (and tend to spread out, making Swipe less effective). But trash is trash in WotLK; and in Cata, CC and single-target burning is supposed to be the go-to method.

[Coat]

I changed my reforging a little bit so now im 70% crit raid buffed in icc* my hit rating is 71 (2.31%) i really don`t see many misses and even if i do miss it's not a big deal i got my rake and rip upstill!<3 so if you're wondering if you should gem hit i say fack it if you have 4 piece t10 and good off pieces just gem agility and agility + 10 crit. i still pull a good amount 15.4k on heroic professor put 19kish+ on saurfang rotface /fester. also im 6.2k gearscore.

[yzzami]

Mastery is really nice for us Bleeds are hitting like a diesel truck loaded with slabs of concrete

Still can't dps as a leper gnome yet though =(

[Williee]

Hey guys

Im just wondering if you guys force for tiger fury 15% dmg inc to use rake and rip during ur openers even if it means shredding once or twice extra during ur opening rotation. I find myself getting a lot of excessive energy regen (ie- bloodlust at the beginning of a fight or lucky omen procs) where it causes my energy to not hit 30-50 energy range to use tiger's fury to its full extent. I kno in ur opener rotation guide, it states u might pop it early and waste energy. Does this account having 80-100 energy during the moment you should use tiger fury?
Also, during berserk, should i use fbite every 5 combo point with decent time left on rip, rake and roar or continue shredding as much as i can during the berserk period back during arp days?

Sorry if anything i said seems unclear.
Thanks
Williee

[Coat]

Hey guys

Im just wondering if you guys force for tiger fury 15% dmg inc to use rake and rip during ur openers even if it means shredding once or twice extra during ur opening rotation. I find myself getting a lot of excessive energy regen (ie- bloodlust at the beginning of a fight or lucky omen procs) where it causes my energy to not hit 30-50 energy range to use tiger's fury to its full extent. I kno in ur opener rotation guide, it states u might pop it early and waste energy. Does this account having 80-100 energy during the moment you should use tiger fury?
Also, during berserk, should i use fbite every 5 combo point with decent time left on rip, rake and roar or continue shredding as much as i can during the berserk period back during arp days?

Sorry if anything i said seems unclear.
Thanks
Williee

It's pretty much the same rotation. if you have to mangle, then open with mangle rake tiger fury shred shred rip then repeat pretty much. Sr is really useless and use FB when you have decent amount of RIP up yes. but make sure never to let them bleeds drop. heres some logs with that rotation worldoflogs.com/reports/fxtdn20ur9l0njgt/sum/damageDone/?s=2291&e=2510 hopefully next week we'll have all fights recorded had trouble with loggs the last couple weeks

[The Cat]

It's pretty much the same rotation. if you have to mangle, then open with mangle rake tiger fury shred shred rip then repeat pretty much. Sr is really useless and use FB when you have decent amount of RIP up yes.

People should stop helping people with information that directly conflicts with the guide.

[Deleted]

so... we're still using 4/5, aye?



Another question... ehh..
The same target, the same lvl..
When I use on it Revenge from Stampede - I do around 8-10k with Crit
When I use Revenge with the normal mode, a.k.a Stealth+Behind it, I am doing around 14-16k?
ugh?

[Minotaure]

It's pretty much the same rotation. if you have to mangle, then open with mangle rake tiger fury shred shred rip then repeat pretty much. Sr is really useless and use FB when you have decent amount of RIP up yes. but make sure never to let them bleeds drop. heres some logs with that rotation worldoflogs.com/reports/fxtdn20ur9l0njgt/sum/damageDone/?s=2291&e=2510 hopefully next week we'll have all fights recorded had trouble with loggs the last couple weeks

Savage Roar is only up 26.7% of the time

[Aequita]

Savage Roar is only up 26.7% of the time

Thougth teh same!