Trials of Ascension, Shady Practices and the Big Crowdfunding Debate

[Yunru]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect

I recomend puting every poster who defend the game on ignore (every poster with like 1-20 posts). 1.st to prevent tread getting locked due to emotion and second due to false information spreading. Its kinda logical they are trying to take it down.

Hopefully the people who wasted the money on this scam will get their money back.

I could probaly make a better game with that money . I know some people that work in this company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZootFly .

[glo]

Which is...?

They could've aimed smaller before jumping at MMOs. Kingdoms of Amalur, despite the underhandedness of the business/management, was intended to move into MMO territory after Reckoning.

I don't think there was anything real shady going on with Amalur, just unfortunate timing and complications. It really boiled down to a guy who came from playing baseball dropping every dollar he had to produce his own game, regardless of his lack of business or industry experience. The easily predicted obviously happened.

[Christan]

Hi, I'm not a Dev of the game, but we are selling a solid idea. It doesn't matter if we have nothing to show for it after 10 years, granted 4 of those years we weren't working on it. Whereas before that it was simply a concept (but we still took donations even when it was pure concept, and stopped development even after receiving said donations)
but it's the idea we're selling, not the game, people WANT to pay for npc's named after them, weapons you can craft with your own name on it.
People don't want to play a real game, they just want to buy into the 'idea' rather... donate to the idea. (because we would be obligated legally if we actually 'sold' anything, we have to sell it as donations, also helps with taxes YEAH!)

who needs a real game when we can string people on for years and years, getting more money from them?

eventually a "cash cow" leaves in disgust when they realize nothing is happening, but just like last time when to many left after 6 years. After we lose to many 'cash cows' we will start up another media spree/kickstarter, but this time we will have some simple stuff we've done with the unity engine to show for it, it may never be playable, but that part doesn't matter, we will attract new people to pay us

(satire, don't take this seriously lol) Trials of Ascension will be amazing!!!

[Juvencus]

[...]They are making things up as they go and trying to cobble together whatever they can to cobble together whatever they can for their demo. counter evidence about their scam. [...]

Fixed for you.

As for the rest of the sentence, that's exactly what they are doing. Making things up!

[dextersmith]

Even back in the old days, what they had was concept art, terrain, a few tree models, a few character models and a UI mockup.

Someone else's trees, art, etc.

What's happening now is actual development, (if only of a demo,) at a pace the project has never seen before,

And what a pace! lol

- - - Updated - - -

The ToA forums have always been a kind of sheltered oasis, but back in 2005 or 6 or so when updates were thin and it was becoming more clear that it was going to be a long time if the game was ever going to be finished, there were a lot of threads where people came into the forums and raised a ruckus about the game, criticizing the design and calling it out as vaporware. The threads ran on and on and went in circles, remaining mostly civil but getting heated sometimes. I think the reason why we don't see these topics nowadays might regrettably be heavy moderation and deletion of threads... But I invite you to come to the forums and test it out. Start a thread bringing up some concerns levelheadedly, avoid incendiary rhetoric and see what happens. I don't agree with suppression of criticism, and I'd be disappointed if the comment was deleted.

That's beyond damage control, it's propaganda and deception.

[Kyanion]

You don't need to edit posts, delete threads or anything if there are hardly any REAL people posting in those threads. Why is there no negativity? Because it is faked up. Like many people have pointed out, there is no way those forums are legit. This is just an elaborate scam where they keep putting just enough in to maybe sucker someone out of some money and I really don't think you are a person who donated to this 'idea' and have been following it for 12 years. I think you are just another stooge that is coming in this thread to try and spin things around to make it look like there is actually a 'game' being worked on so you can attempt to gain more cash that will be 'donated' for an idea...err game...err nothing.

[Kelimbror]

That really is what I've been for twelve years...

Just read that statement over and over and let it sink in. You've been 'following' a game for over a decade, a third of a middle aged person's life, for the amount of time people are in primary school. Think about that....someone coming out of Kindergarten will be a graduating high school senior in the time you've followed this 'game' and IT HASNT EVEN RELEASED A DEMO. That's about the most depressing thing I've ever heard.

[zito]

Damn I missed another alt

/popcorn

[Kotori125]

I think this part is the funniest

I'm a long time fan of Trials of Ascension, who has been following the game since 2002. I have also donated to the developers...
(Which is why we asked FC to put an option in their store to just give money, without the pretense of buying virtual goods which may never be deliverable.)

Yeah, it's the fans that want the game/concept so much, that the fans are the ones that forced the devs to take their money for nothing in return. Even when they know that there will be nothing to show for their contributions (or at least a significantly high chance it won't launch, or significantly low chance it will, take your pick)

Now, about this

they will have a hard time finding backers who want to donate the, what, 700k - probably more like 2 mil+ if what you guys say about making MMORPGs in Unity is true - that they will need to hire experienced people to finish the game.

Did you read what people actually posted about making MMO games in Unity. About the part that it isn't designed for MMO games or server-based games to work, and that it was even incredibly difficult for a handful of incredibly talented individuals to even get it to function. Or something along those lines.

In the off chance that you are a fan who has been following hardcore for 12 years, how did you not know about the Hero Engine thing? Wouldn't that mean that these devs are withholding information from their fans (or lying to, or rather severely misleading)?

[Post]

I don't know how you can call me a dev alt when I am upfront with my opinion that there will probably never be a game.

"Hmm, well they seem to not believe I'm not a dev when I 100000% support the game in every way and know all the details, this time I'll start admitting flaws! Surely they'll fall for it then!". As other people have pointed out, you guys keep trying to throw in different personalities and it really isn't fooling anyone.

If you really wanted this to start getting better for you guys you would admit to all the BS you've been doing, and start taking the legitimate advice these people are giving (there have been people way nicer than they should've been provided this shitty behavior from you guys). That won't happen though, you'll continue to ignore people who are actually trying to help you, assume everyone is a troll or a hater and then continue failing at everything. At least it's more entertaining that way!

[Kotori125]

ugh, double post. POS 2003 computer.

Anyways...now I want to tinker with Unity and see what I am able to do with it, when I have zero hands-on experience with game development. Bet it won't take me that long to learn the basics. But actually sitting down to start it...

[Tanamoril]

Hi, I'm not a Dev of the game, but we are selling a solid idea. It doesn't matter if we have nothing to show for it after 10 years, granted 4 of those years we weren't working on it. Whereas before that it was simply a concept (but we still took donations even when it was pure concept, and stopped development even after receiving said donations)

but it's the idea we're selling, not the game, people WANT to pay for npc's named after them, weapons you can craft with your own name on it.
People don't want to play a real game, they just want to buy into the 'idea' rather... donate to the idea. (because we would be obligated legally if we actually 'sold' anything, we have to sell it as donations, also helps with taxes YEAH!)

who needs a real game when we can string people on for years and years, getting more money from them?

eventually a "cash cow" leaves in disgust when they realize nothing is happening, but just like last time when to many left after 6 years. After we lose to many 'cash cows' we will start up another media spree/kickstarter, but this time we will have some simple stuff we've done with the unity engine to show for it, it may never be playable, but that part doesn't matter, we will attract new people to pay us

(satire, don't take this seriously lol) Trials of Ascension will be amazing!!!

No donations were taken before this year. This campaign, post-failed-kickstarter, is the first time they've asked for money directly from their fans.

Again, before January of this year, the developers _didn't take donations_ . For the eleven years before the kickstarter, ToA was just a website and forums.

That's beyond damage control, it's propaganda and deception.

I agree that it's pretty poor policy. Again, I don't know for a fact that this kind of heavy moderation is happening, but I suspect it is.

You don't need to edit posts, delete threads or anything if there are hardly any REAL people posting in those threads. Why is there no negativity? Because it is faked up. Like many people have pointed out, there is no way those forums are legit. This is just an elaborate scam where they keep putting just enough in to maybe sucker someone out of some money and I really don't think you are a person who donated to this 'idea' and have been following it for 12 years. I think you are just another stooge that is coming in this thread to try and spin things around to make it look like there is actually a 'game' being worked on so you can attempt to gain more cash that will be 'donated' for an idea...err game...err nothing.

When I heard about Trials of Ascension, I was a freshman at Swarthmore College in Pennsylvania. I followed the project through my time there, as I tried to decide on a major but grew more and more unhappy, eventually coming home to Seattle in 2004. I followed the project as I went to the University of Washington to get a music degree, and when I was hired by a small private school to teach math and compose music for school plays, Brax had posted the famous letter saying that the game was on indefinite hiatus. The same fall that Forged Chaos opened their new site, I decided to go back to school as a postbaccalaureate to get a BS in Mechanical Engineering. If you search my name (Tanamoril) on the ToA forums, you'll find that I haven't been able to post too much. This is because I've been studying ME for two years. I'm just about to enter my senior year of the program.

I have no experience with game design or coding, and I have never even tried to associate with the developers outside of the forums except for once. In 2007, I got an idea to make them a Christmas present. Since I live a couple hours' drive away from Sedro-Wooley, my idea was to actually bring a fruitcake to their front door, along with a card I made with nice words from some prominent forum members. I sent PMs to about twenty people, heard back from ten... made the fruitcake and the card, and drove to what I thought was their address. I got the address from doing a domain name lookup on their website.. but Don had moved since registering the site, and I knocked on some confused person's door and proceeded to have one of the most awkward conversations I have ever had. I was never able to deliver the card or the fruitcake, and I think I still have that card in my old room at my parents' house.

It flabbergasts me that you guys think that the forums are fake. I understand your other criticisms, and I don't have the knowledge to counter or support them. But the claims that there aren't real people posting in the ToA forums are based on... a feeling that the forums are too positive? I admit that one reason why they may be that way is heavy moderation. But ever since 2002 when a number of the fans migrated over to ToA from the Horizons boards, that's been the forums atmosphere: a supportive and civil place to discuss what we hope the game will be. Back then, again, critical threads weren't removed and we had some long arguments, but that positive and considered style was still the way we discussed things. We know it's not usual for web communities, and we are actually really proud of it.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to support the project. I'm not even trying to convince anyone that the project is viable. But there _are_ people who are ardent fans of the game that Forged Chaos is trying to make. If that makes those people idiots or suckers in your view, ok. But the community exists.

Just read that statement over and over and let it sink in. You've been 'following' a game for over a decade, a third of a middle aged person's life, for the amount of time people are in primary school. Think about that....someone coming out of Kindergarten will be a graduating high school senior in the time you've followed this 'game' and IT HASNT EVEN RELEASED A DEMO. That's about the most depressing thing I've ever heard.

It's just because I personally think ToA would be everything I want in an MMO. So, even when it comes to nothing, I enjoy thinking about it and discussing it with like-minded people. I stick around because I like talking with friends and putting together silly forum settlements and generally having fun. My donation to the developers was as much of a thank you for eleven years of enjoyable times with a good community as it was a contribution to their efforts to put out the game.

[-aiko-]

Hey guys, let's try to get away from the discussion of whether a poster is a developer for this game or not. If there is actual discussion happening let's try to keep it going rather than trying to re-direct it to questioning and identity.

Anyways...now I want to tinker with Unity and see what I am able to do with it, when I have zero hands-on experience with game development. Bet it won't take me that long to learn the basics. But actually sitting down to start it...

Learn programming first. It's the only way to effectively use Unity. The Unity interface itself is really easy to understand and user-friendly, but it still requires scripting.

[Kelimbror]

It's just because I personally think ToA would be everything I want in an MMO. So, even when it comes to nothing, I enjoy thinking about it and discussing it with like-minded people. I stick around because I like talking with friends and putting together silly forum settlements and generally having fun. My donation to the developers was as much of a thank you for eleven years of enjoyable times with a good community as it was a contribution to their efforts to put out the game.

This is sad and also a load of crap. The developers haven't developed anything and also aren't responsible for anything aside from duping gullible people. I guess that's what you mean by 'like minded'? This is utterly the most illogical and unwarranted thing I have ever seen in my life. Each approach has tried to be radically different but always boils down to praising absolute nothingness to the high heavens. Now it's gone so far as to try and make us believe the 'developers' that have done almost no work in 12 years should be paid money for 'enjoyable times with a good community'. I have now seen it all on these forums. Time to write my book.

[-aiko-]

You don't need to edit posts, delete threads or anything if there are hardly any REAL people posting in those threads. Why is there no negativity? Because it is faked up. Like many people have pointed out, there is no way those forums are legit. This is just an elaborate scam where they keep putting just enough in to maybe sucker someone out of some money and I really don't think you are a person who donated to this 'idea' and have been following it for 12 years. I think you are just another stooge that is coming in this thread to try and spin things around to make it look like there is actually a 'game' being worked on so you can attempt to gain more cash that will be 'donated' for an idea...err game...err nothing.

Honestly, I don't think it is a deliberate scam. It just reeks incompetence. These people wanted to make a game but obviously have no skills themselves to make it happen. So it's an accidental scam that arose from incompetence. I guess that sounds a little bit better...?

But you never know, maybe one day it will come to fruition.

[Kyanion]

Well not all scams are done very well. I mean in 12 years they were so lazy that they couldn't bother to learn how to code anything? There have been posts detailing the attempts they had on Hero Engine and how that got shot down and then the video they made with Unity which was broken down on what is included with Unity and what was actually 'work'.

It may not be a scam and just 100% incompetence but it sure reeks of scam to me. I think about 10 pages ago people were talking about what they would need to put out to show they actually were working on something, a pre-alpha build that many people wanting games funded have posted on Kickstarter and other places. These people haven't even gotten close to that level yet they are totally fine with taking donations on this 12 year project.

[Yunru]

Honestly, I don't think it is a deliberate scam. It just reeks incompetence. These people wanted to make a game but obviously have no skills themselves to make it happen. So it's an accidental scam that arose from incompetence. I guess that sounds a little bit better...?

But you never know, maybe one day it will come to fruition.

They dont needs skills. For this money they can hire someone to make a game.
This is what i would do.

[Post]

They dont needs skills. For this money they can hire someone to make a game.
This is what i would do.

That seems to be their plan from the start, and look how that has turned out.

[-aiko-]

They dont needs skills. For this money they can hire someone to make a game.
This is what i would do.

It looks like they have tried to hire people and have failed miserably. I'm not even sure what decent programmer would take up this project now with the stigma behind it.

I don't doubt that they mind holding on to the crowd-sourced money, though...

[unholytestament]

It's just because I personally think ToA would be everything I want in an MMO. So, even when it comes to nothing, I enjoy thinking about it and discussing it with like-minded people. I stick around because I like talking with friends and putting together silly forum settlements and generally having fun. My donation to the developers was as much of a thank you for eleven years of enjoyable times with a good community as it was a contribution to their efforts to put out the game.

I repeat: Can I get paid for dreaming?

I'm pretty sure I can keep my dreams entertaining enough to sucker people out of money for a decade if I really tried.