Volcanic ruined raider.io and m+

[Leriot]

Thanks to a fairly under-tuned m+ affix with volcanic and raging (or any combination of volcanic) it is no longer safe to "assume/guesstimate" skill-level based on someones raider.io score. Do you think raider.io should implement a feature where you can possibly see a players score with one of the two affixes of that particular week? This is currently possible on their website to filter out only specific combinations, but for me I would think showing players scores from a similar week.

E.G.
It's a sanguine necrotic week and I am trying to organize a group. Currently a tank can apply and I have to manually check if he has any experience with necrotic OR sanguine on his account or main, as someone who can have 1.3k score from those volcanic weeks does not necessarily have to be able to manage this weeks affixes. I would much rather prefer if the add on itself showed me their best score from a week of sanguine and a best score of a necrotic week if they haven't done those two together.

Do you think this would once again upset the entire player-base who think .io is a plague? I believe it could give the initiative to get better at specific affixes and also improve your score week by week basis feeling like even a +10 on a week where you haven't done one is an upgrade.

[Deleted]

You could actually copy the players link and see when they did their good scores.

But yes, you are absolutely right. Those affix combination was far too easy and now there are a lot of scrubs with higher rating that think they are great.

[Jester Joe]

We lasted through Legion, I'm not sure why you think now it would be needed.

As pointed out, you could just go look them up yourself if you care that much and you can just put "Checking .io" in the description so people know they'll be waiting.

io is already a double sided sword, there are people who use it incorrectly already and it ends up causing a mess of problems anyway.

[Leriot]

We lasted through Legion, I'm not sure why you think now it would be needed.

Ah, that would be my bad I've just recently decided to immerse myself into M+ pushing and wasn't so active during legion and from the little I did I remember a lot lower number of mobs that tend to stand still and are very tricky to get out of sanguine, or mobs that teleport behind the tank and refresh the stacks on necrotic. But I could very well be wrong. I am only looking at it from BFA point of view.

io is already a double sided sword, there are people who use it incorrectly already and it ends up causing a mess of problems anyway.

I don't disagree but there have been numerous discussions about how to replace this system. Players just want to see progress of someone and how well he's done so far I believe. Every one of these comparing systems has flaws that can always be circumvented by playing in a premade group and not caring. Without .io we'd possibly have to use Item-level but blizzard has been adamant on making sure everyone is sitting around the same item-level with little to no effort. If actually reaching 375+ took a lot more effort than it currently does. The difficulty spikes in content are not relative to the iLVL the content rewards which I feel is the biggest shame.

[Twdft]

The developers of raider.io listened to the mmo-c community while developing a lot, I'm sure they still are open to suggestions of how to weigh different affix combos. Shouldn't even be that difficult to retroactively change the scores, times and affixes are recorded just calculate everything new.

[Jester Joe]

Ah, that would be my bad I've just recently decided to immerse myself into M+ pushing and wasn't so active during legion and from the little I did I remember a lot lower number of mobs that tend to stand still and are very tricky to get out of sanguine, or mobs that teleport behind the tank and refresh the stacks on necrotic. But I could very well be wrong. I am only looking at it from BFA point of view.

The rock pelters in Nelth's Lair come to mind, along with the worms that only moved when they felt like it.
Although I would categorize that type of stuff as problematic in the first place, because it just leaves tanks that can easily displace mobs as the "go to" for things like this.
Almost like why Blood DKs are the most popular when they have two mob yanks and a pretty strong aoe slow.

I don't disagree but there have been numerous discussions about how to replace this system. Players just want to see progress of someone and how well he's done so far I believe. Every one of these comparing systems has flaws that can always be circumvented by playing in a premade group and not caring. Without .io we'd possibly have to use Item-level but blizzard has been adamant on making sure everyone is sitting around the same item-level with little to no effort. If actually reaching 375+ took a lot more effort than it currently does. The difficulty spikes in content are not relative to the iLVL the content rewards which I feel is the biggest shame.

The issue is then you end up with a disconnect here in my opinion.

For example, if you're doing a +4 Freehold lets say.
A pretty easy key to ensure you do it in time. You could take almost anyone with a decent ilvl.
But why would you pick a 360 trying to get their io score up so they can push a +5-6 next time, when you can grab the 370+ who already has a +11 done for Freehold?

It is what it is though.

[Trend]

This is nothing new. Since the keystone system was introduced it's been unbalanced. Some weeks are sooooooo much easier than other weeks for equivalent keys. For any season, the top runs are always a limited number of affixes.

And "has undesirable bias" != "ruined" by the way.

[Faesroll]

Don't worry, next week is going to be piss easy as well.

[Leriot]

For example, if you're doing a +4 Freehold lets say.
A pretty easy key to ensure you do it in time. You could take almost anyone with a decent ilvl.
But why would you pick a 360 trying to get their io score up so they can push a +5-6 next time, when you can grab the 370+ who already has a +11 done for Freehold?

While it is true that I have no reason to take a 370 who has done an 11, I do believe in an organic system you do not have a great amount of 370+ with a great score joining low keys, and if they are they are mostly trying to help people finish keys on time / are queuing with someone else. They themselves do not benefit from doing that key unless they are spamming it for warforges/titanforges, which I don't think too many people do for it to be an issue. I do believe for lower keys there's a semblance of some sort of balance between ilvl and .io score.

For example a 370 queuing to a +5 will probably be accepted, as higher ilvl means he should do more damage/healing, while a 360 with 400 - 450 score queing for a +5 also has a similar chance to get accepted.

In the end most of these problems again boil down to itemlevel being way too easy to increase just by sort of passively playing the game.

This is nothing new. Since the keystone system was introduced it's been unbalanced. Some weeks are sooooooo much easier than other weeks for equivalent keys. For any season, the top runs are always a limited number of affixes.

And "has undesirable bias" != "ruined" by the way.

That's exactly why I tried not to bring the balance of volcanic compared to other affixes. It may be true that it is under-tuned I don't necessarily suggest it should be buffed to be a challenge. I am all up for easier weeks so people can relax a bit in dungeons and get their high keys done easily. What I "complained" about was mostly the way players doing m+ are ranked and that indeed using those measurements volcanic created inflation of score which made the numbers arbitrary.

M+ will never be balanced, and I don't seek balance at least until a +10 which seems to be the benchmark for the community. Anything above should vary greatly between affixes but should STILL feel satisfying to push. Right now I feel apathetic when it comes to trying to push on a hard week. I have healer friends who barely log in during grievous weeks and just do their +10 because some of those people only care about score and you're not getting score on a week like that (that's their argument not mine).

I find myself enjoying the challenge so I try to do a high key on a hard week even if it doesn't give me score. I just feel like it should be easier to sieve through people and feel a bit more rewarded doing "harder' weeks.

[shyguybman]

Man you guys want any excuse to not invite someone

[Deja Thoris]

You sound like a douche on the eu forums who can't make a post without mentioning radier.io score. I swear to God he probably faps to it.

[Ange]

You can allready filter out HIGH-RATED-VULCANIC-ONLY players by just looking at keys done. It worked for legion too, since many PUSH-Players only did vulcanic keys higher than weekly.

[Tziva]

The system is already imperfect just because of how Blizzard's API relies on server ranking currently. There are good people who do their runs on the weekend that don't record, for example, or people who are competent and experienced but have that experienced scattered across several characters that will all rank mediocre rather than focusing one that looks good, and there are people who care a lot about maximising their number by running only on certain weeks and always at the start of the week, but that doesn't necessarily reflect them accurately.

And yeah, there are some weeks that are really easy while some are really awful.... but it's always been that way. You can look at the affixes right on the website if you really care that much. I feel like anyone who puts in effort enough to try to game their score by running only on easy weeks probably is crafty enough and cares enough to do okay even on harder weeks, but what do I know.

As with any of the many ranking or quality-checking systems that have been popular in WoW over the years, it helps if people put in a little more effort than just quickly eyeballing whatever achievement/ilvl/score. Achievements can be bought (or faked), ilvl can be achieved through irrelevant content, ranking can be manipulated. If you're really trying to build quality, competent groups, then just take the ten extra seconds it takes to look at their armory or the affixes for each keystone or whatever relevant data is out there.

[Azerate]

A little bit of elitism doesn't hurt anyone, but be careful not to go too far with it. And trying to assign raider io score just for some specific combos affixes IS going too far.

I think we've had sanguine like 2 or 3 times tops since BfA release. Are you saying I should basically wait 3 months, feel like doing some M+ that specific week, and doing high keys, just to get accepted into a dungeon once this specific affix appears the next time?


This would be a great comedy thread, but it unfortunately seems you are being serious, which just makes it sad.

[Cyanu]

it's ok to be selective with who you play but this post boarders on ridiculous...

[ID811717]

A little bit of elitism doesn't hurt anyone, but be careful not to go too far with it. And trying to assign raider io score just for some specific combos affixes IS going too far.

I think we've had sanguine like 2 or 3 times tops since BfA release. Are you saying I should basically wait 3 months, feel like doing some M+ that specific week, and doing high keys, just to get accepted into a dungeon once this specific affix appears the next time?


This would be a great comedy thread, but it unfortunately seems you are being serious, which just makes it sad.

+1 to this, I wanted to write the same.

The players who happened to get all of their score from the easy push week have no malicious intent. If anything, they are usually the biggest victims of this easy week phenomenon. I had many of them on my friend list throughout past M+ seasons.

There are a lot of mid-tier players aspiring to push high keys. Some of them manage to take an entire week off and push 24/7 on easy affixes. They get a huge increase in score (e.g. lots of friends went from 3.2-3.6k score to 4.5-5k score in December 2017 pushing week). That significantly raises their expectations of what keys they should be capable of doing. And then over the next 2-3 months they basically fail to improve their score. They come online occasionally, fail to get a group for any high key that could improve their score, so they try to push up some lower keys and fail to time them spectacularly. Many of them end up quitting M+ or WoW because they are depressed that they hit a wall and cannot progress anymore.

[Nize]

I guess yeah. To put it as Volcanic itself being the culprit - I'm not sure about that. But the lack of balance in affixes (with Blizzard's excuse being "it makes it fun") is a problem they really need to work on.

[Deleted]

You're spot on. There appeared several "high end" 1300 io-score guys in the guild after the volcanic week. I look at their IO pages and it's volcanic top to bottom. If the leaders don't check this and invite them, well, good luck.

[rbigrq]

Make your own group

[araine]

Thanks to a fairly under-tuned m+ affix with volcanic and raging (or any combination of volcanic) it is no longer safe to "assume/guesstimate" skill-level based on someones raider.io score. Do you think raider.io should implement a feature where you can possibly see a players score with one of the two affixes of that particular week? This is currently possible on their website to filter out only specific combinations, but for me I would think showing players scores from a similar week.

E.G.
It's a sanguine necrotic week and I am trying to organize a group. Currently a tank can apply and I have to manually check if he has any experience with necrotic OR sanguine on his account or main, as someone who can have 1.3k score from those volcanic weeks does not necessarily have to be able to manage this weeks affixes. I would much rather prefer if the add on itself showed me their best score from a week of sanguine and a best score of a necrotic week if they haven't done those two together.

Do you think this would once again upset the entire player-base who think .io is a plague? I believe it could give the initiative to get better at specific affixes and also improve your score week by week basis feeling like even a +10 on a week where you haven't done one is an upgrade.

If you use IO scan players with you deserve the poor outcome really you do