Why is Theramore seen as unjustified?

[Protean]

Yeah, the Blood Elves weren't dealing in fel magic, attacking the Draenei, and their prince definitely wasn't making deals with Kil'jaeden. How dare anyone try to find out what they were doing? All I have to say on this, because we beat it to death in another thread.

Another fine example of twisting things trying desperately to make the Horde look good.

So you're saying using civilians as shields is a bad thing? Something the alliance did at Theramore?

[Raisei]

So you're saying using civilians as shields is a bad thing? Something the alliance did at Theramore?

Wow, that's really desperate. The civilians at Theramore weren't used as shield. IT WAS THEIR HOME. We are not talking about a small military camp but a CITY.

The fact that such an obvious thing has to be explained...

[Minikin]

Wow, that's really desperate. The civilians at Theramore weren't used as shield. IT WAS THEIR HOME. We are not talking about a small military camp but a CITY.

The fact that such an obvious thing has to be explained...

its ok, those same civilians were then taken by Garrosh and gainfully employed at Org. The alliance then attacked Org and robbed them off their new home and jobs. according the @Protean, the writers and everyone else is "IN" on "IT". The horde was only trying to help.

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Indiscriminate mass murder for no reason. Capturing the city could have been accomplished through conventional means and far fewer lives lost and wiping out the people of Theramore doesn't further the Horde's strategic situation. Nuking the soldiers at Theramore only marginally diminishes the Alliance's military strength (hey, the Horde and the Alliance somehow have enough men to cover four continents, launch an expedition to another world, and constantly be engaged in warfare for decades. The soldiers at Theramore were a drop in the bucket). It's indiscriminate mass murder for the sake of doing so. It's literally for the evulz. Don't forget that Garrosh took the handful of survivors back to Orgrimmar and tortured them and used them for target practice.

The Horde was billed as a family of honorable outcasts. After Thrall left it became "the evil faction" that I was ashamed to play, what with Sylvanas' and Garrosh's atrocities. And now it seems like we will never get a return to the good old Horde now that we have a "council" instead of Warchief Baine.

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Really puts into perspective how aggressive the Horde became after Thrall left.

makes you wonder more about how people on these boards can still do the whole:
"alliance is evil" [more towns destroyed by the horde]
"they push the horde down" [thrall put the horde in durotar]
"we didnt start it, they did!" [blizzard calls the BfA war the 4th war with a title]

and when all that fails
"the writers suck, they all play alliance"

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Maybe they shouldn't have kept civilians at a military target.

Its a city. People live there.
You wanna tell the blood elves "Hey xLegolasx, you need to stop crying. Its not Arthas's fault you live in Silvermoon City. Its a military target. Get the heck out and make a home elsewhere. Somewhere outside your city. Its not your city. Its a military target". Profound logic indeed.

I blame the army using human shields, something the horde has never done.

The horde also paved an entire road with the bones of draenei on their way to a portal made so they can go conquer and wreck another world.

No one else has ever done that either.

[Accendor]

https://www.polygon.com/2019/1/9/181...-sylvanas-lore

Thank you for that link! As of always with story telling they prefer to stay with the "maybe she did, maybe she did not, who knows?"

However what I like to point out: You stated that saying "it was Sylvanas" while ignoring a source that says otherwise is alliance cherry picking - however, it is clearly not. Like srsly, Polygon is a third party site. Compare this to an official interview at Blizzcon.

It's not the players who are to blame if they don't know what the actual lore is supposed to be atm.

[Aleksej89]

It is similar to the USA bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
Lots of civilians dead and needless destruction, which is what the devs were trying to imitate/portray with the theramore bombing.

War3 is medieval so there really arent any "humanoid" rights or whatever.
But still indiscriminately mass murdering every man, woman, child and elder inside theramore is an extreme level of depravity and barbarism.

[Varodoc]

The horde also paved an entire road with the bones of draenei on their way to a portal made so they can go conquer and wreck another world.

No one else has ever done that either.

And? It was the draenei's fault. They are responsible for the orcs' corruption. Not only is Kil'jaeden basically a draenei, but the draenei refugees brought the Legion to Draenor. The Genocide of the Draenei was justified.

I feel like I should put /s at the end, because there are some Horde fanboys in here who unironically use these arguments.

[mickybrighteyes]

The horde also paved an entire road with the bones of draenei on their way to a portal made so they can go conquer and wreck another world.

No one else has ever done that either.

This point has a couple of issues.

Firstly is that this is a different horde,
secondly it's part of teh major retcon that turned "draenei" of "draenor" into a foreign alien species entirely unrelated to draenor...

When people put this one out here it holds about as much weight to me as realizing Draenor is now the shattered realm out outland because of the alliance's invasion to counter attack the orcs following their second war or that the original invasion only started because of the Guardian summoning it.

But yeah, again, lets talk about lore rewritten to explicitly serve only to make orcs look terrible.

[Mace]

Darnassian saboteurs were killing blood elves on sight while tampering with the sanctums, and in the Ghostlands, they killed blood elves on sight while doing precisely fuck-all against the overwhelming Scourge presence in the area, when the night elves know damn well the threat the Scourge possess from their short time journeying with Kael'thas's men (Tyrande herself almost died holding back waves of Scourge until Illidan and Malfurion bailed her out of trouble).

Actually they were not hostile, but neutral, you had to attack them to get the missive.

In the scrying zones in the Ghostlands, they are hostile, could that be because you killed the spy snooping around the sanctum (who you find out didn't actually sabotage it, it malfunctioned).

But I normally don't over read anything like you have stated into the NPCs being flagged hostile. b/c usually it's game mechanics, you start Sunstrider isle flagged horde, even before the race has joined the horde, any alliance toon that goes there, would be flagged hostile, whether he has peaceful intentions or not, the guards will attack him, the NPCs will attack him, no questions asked. That's just game flag mechanics. I would put much weight into and say the blood elves were hostile to my toon and I hadn't done anything to them.



What I do know is this.
1. There are supposed to be two sides usually to a story, and most of the time each side is suppose to feel they have good cause to take the action they took. You must understand each sides perspective based on their character. In this case, the alliance you know aren't actually invading

2. We know from 3rd person viewpoint, the politics of the moment. We know that before you start your quest in Sunstrider isle, Kael'thas has already ordered the blood elves to join the horde, not the alliance. Most may be unaware of that, but Rommath is sent to carry out that instruction. So we know they've already picked their side anyway, even if the player doesn't realise it yet. we have no idea which NPCs do or not.
We know the alliance is concerned about the blood elves, at this point they are officially trying to open talks with an ally we presume relations with are somewhat in the air after the disastrous events, - what's the state, is their a government, what's the condition? The night elves who've now joined, witnessed Kael'thas run off with Illidan who joins the legion (we know he is pretending too, they don't know that), this casts great suspicion on the high elves and blood elves, and on joining the alliance the night elves warn the alliance about the high elves - so they need to find out what the actual situation is, because this development is not usual for the race that was a stalwart against such evil. Humans know this, high elves were involved in the covert offensive against the legion they're not friends. But there is a history and the action sin TFT are foreboding - have they returned to that former state of their ancestors who came from the Palace Highborne group?


We must use that information to interpret what is going on. It's okay to take sides and agree with one group over another, but we know what happens, I can still side with the blood elves and condemn them for slaughtering rather than apprehending the spies, spying is not a friendly act, by a long shot, and creates trust issues, but as a person, I wouldn't execute another for spying without finding out why this is happening, especially if he was a friend.

Perhaps the actions show the blood elves never considered anyone else but themselves as friends, alliance were means to an end, and horde centric actions are exactly for that purpose, a means to an end. I don't know. Realistically I doubt everyone would view things the same way. But I have a broader scope of the situation from a 3rd person point knowing what's going on on both sides. The blood elves are mostly unaware of their leaders wishes, and what he's been doing and won't understand why the alliance is spying on them. The alliance have no idea whether they can trust the blood elves, and rather than jump to conclusions, seek to figure out for themselves. Aware of how deceptive the Legion can be, you can't just go straight up and ask, compromised people will never admit it - the night elves and draenei know first hand how deceptive the Legion are - the course of action seems the only way.

[Thage]

@Mace He wasn't a friend, though. The blood elves had left the Alliance after Garithos ordered the execution of their crown prince and his men for 'treason,' for working with the naga to survive multiple suicide missions Garithos sent them on after pulling all support. The Alliance was on equal footing with the Horde by the point the blood elves were getting ready to come back to global politics. While the Horde treated them fair, the Alliance sent spies and saboteurs.

And again, this is happening while the blood elves are on the brink of extinction. They're just barely avoiding societal collapse. Tell me, were the night elves apprehending Horde troops in Darkshore? Or were they slaughtering them on sight because the Horde were presenting an active threat to their continued existence? Why are you taking umbrage with the blood elves doing the same when it comes to light that the Alliance has sent spies and saboteurs to find weakpoints in their defenses and to disable the last line of defense they have against the Scourge presence to the south? When, while occupying territory in the Ghostlands, they make no efforts to assist in pushing back the Scourge, but instead attack the blood elves on sight, directly contributing to the Scourge forces and strengthening the Scourge's presence there?

Again, at this point in the story, survival is everything. Prospector Anvilward was killed because compelling evidence was found that he was working directly against the interests and needs of Silvermoon City, using his status as a diplomat as cover. The Darnassian spy was killed because they were found lurking near the malfunctioning Sanctum (and assuming he was sent to disable it is not an unreasonable assumption, especially after the fact when you find documents on him showing the Alliance 'diplomat' is a spy)--and it's interesting how you bring up NPC flags here but then turn around and argue against noting NPC flags in the Ghostlands. Make up your mind.

You claim that you would hold to higher ideals, but have you ever been in a situation where one thing going wrong could cause literally everything to collapse in your country? I haven't. I sure as fuck haven't. But the blood elves were. The night elves are. And in both situations, survival took precedence over loftier ideals, including treating spies and saboteurs kindly. When the alternative is extinction, two spies are nothing. That is the mindset the blood elves were in. It's not about #savage or being the pre-Sundering Highborne or whatever other argument you're making here. It's survival.

[Raisei]

This point has a couple of issues.

Firstly is that this is a different horde,

Yeah, sorry, not seeing it. If our Horde wanted to distance itself from this genocide, maybe a different name would have been a good idea. It might also have been a good idea to not commit more genocides or follow mass-murdering psychopaths.
Even Saurfang admitted that the Horde did not change during all these years, Thrall tried and failed to curb these tendencies out of it, he only surpressed them and as soon as someone offered it the chance for blood, it jumped.

The best part was when Tyrande showed the genocide of the Draenei during Garrosh's trial and Thrall had the nerve to be outraged, because it reflected badly on the Orcs. Because it is okay to murder children and laugh about it, but don't you dare use that against us!

secondly it's part of teh major retcon that turned "draenei" of "draenor" into a foreign alien species entirely unrelated to draenor...

When people put this one out here it holds about as much weight to me as realizing Draenor is now the shattered realm out outland because of the alliance's invasion to counter attack the orcs following their second war or that the original invasion only started because of the Guardian summoning it.

But yeah, again, lets talk about lore rewritten to explicitly serve only to make orcs look terrible.

Pretty sure the Orcs looked terrible ever since WCI. You know with the whole invading our planet and murdering everything in their path?

I know people love to defend these poor innocent creatures, and condemn the Alliance for *gasp* imprisoning them after their murder spree. But if we are open to the facts then all the lore has always made orcs look terrible, strictly because they ARE terrible creatures doing terrible things unapologetically, because honor and blood.
Thrall was an exception that proves the rule. No other Orc has come to his way of thinking in the entire history of the Horde and with how fast they ditched his ways of doing things when he left, one has to assume that they do not WANT to change.

Time will tell if the changes of BFA last. I doubt it very much. Too much backlash is already coming with people wanting their evil Horde back, so I give the council 2 expansions at most.

[mickybrighteyes]

Actually they were not hostile, but neutral, you had to attack them to get the missive.

Pretty sure the first spy that is found is the dwarf and then you run into hostile Darnassian elves around the first shrine you wind up at in Darnassian Intrusions


But regardless, these darnassians are in locations that aren't looking to be posturing for peace and might be related to maintaining the defenses of the region. But like most the rest of TBC most the lore makes little sense with respect to other events.

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Yeah, sorry, not seeing it. If our Horde wanted to distance itself from this genocide, maybe a different name would have been a good idea. It might also have been a good idea to not commit more genocides or follow mass-murdering psychopaths.
Even Saurfang admitted that the Horde did not change during all these years, Thrall tried and failed to curb these tendencies out of it, he only surpressed them and as soon as someone offered it the chance for blood, it jumped.

The best part was when Tyrande showed the genocide of the Draenei during Garrosh's trial and Thrall had the nerve to be outraged, because it reflected badly on the Orcs. Because it is okay to murder children and laugh about it, but don't you dare use that against us!

Not seeing it? Well, it's like how it would be if we say blamed the alliance for the destruction of a planet.

legion finding draenor cause dumb as hell magically inept orcs DON'T get legion attention normally and the magics that ruptured the planet only happen because the boys in blue with the golden lions had to vent their rage ....

Or maybe hold grudged against forces not even related to an event... lets keep going after stormwind for what Lordaeron did?

Pretty sure the Orcs looked terrible ever since WCI. You know with the whole invading our planet and murdering everything in their path?

I know people love to defend these poor innocent creatures, and condemn the Alliance for *gasp* imprisoning them after their murder spree. But if we are open to the facts then all the lore has always made orcs look terrible, strictly because they ARE terrible creatures doing terrible things unapologetically, because honor and blood.
Thrall was an exception that proves the rule. No other Orc has come to his way of thinking in the entire history of the Horde and with how fast they ditched his ways of doing things when he left, one has to assume that they do not WANT to change.

Time will tell if the changes of BFA last. I doubt it very much. Too much backlash is already coming with people wanting their evil Horde back, so I give the council 2 expansions at most.

Thing is that at the end of WC3 they had corrupted beings not in control of their actions and then with TBC they came out with this whole "slaughtered enoguh of this never before revealed group to pave a road with their skulls...." storyline to re-taint the group as a whole. This would be like introducing a new race from argus that the saintly draenei wiped out before we meet their current incarnation...

[Mace]

@Thage, the horde had just wiped out their race a few months ago, MONTHS, I think even benevolent type night elves would slaughter any they found in darkshore, it's not even close to the same thing.

But I am not saying the blood elf action is not understandable or isn't excusable, I'm saying it's more on the savage aggressive side fitting the horde. It could have been written more humanely but wasnt because blizzard wanted them more horde like

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Pretty sure the first spy that is found is the dwarf and then you run into hostile Darnassian elves around the first shrine you wind up at in ...

Go do the quest, it shouldnt take you long to get there, the spies dont attack you, they are yellow, you attack them.

Later in Ghostlands, after colluding with forsaken and having killed both the Ambassador (to send a message that you ain't friendly) and one of the spies, game mechanics aside, it figures you, the same individual, will now be hostile to the spying party. Doesnt mean the spies are invading your Quel'thalas

But horde aggression and savagery shouldnt surprise you, blizzard did say they were going to toughen the blood elve and make them fit the horde better. I think this behaviour is one such.. our opinion of these high elves puritan noble benevolent alliance types is supposed to change with a harder more cruel and savage evolution

[bowlink]

If i had artistic skill i would make comic of an orc proudly laying all the bad things the alliance did on a oversized oldfasioned scales. And the scale pointing to alliance and orc going: Hah see you guys are the evil faction.

Meanwhile the nelf puts on a hard hat and one of those fluorenced yellow vest guiding a crane to put everything the horde had done on the other side. Maxing it out pointing at the horde.

At which point the orc climbs on the alliance side of the scale to make it go down to no evail

[Feanoro]

And? It was the draenei's fault. They are responsible for the orcs' corruption. Not only is Kil'jaeden basically a draenei, but the draenei refugees brought the Legion to Draenor. The Genocide of the Draenei was justified.

I feel like I should put /s at the end, because there are some Horde fanboys in here who unironically use these arguments.

Next post blames the Alliance for blowing up Draenor, and five posts after uses this argument seriously. I wish I was surprised.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

This point has a couple of issues.

Firstly is that this is a different horde,

It’s litteraly the same horde orcs who took part in the genocide of the goats have been in thrall’s horde since day one with the only Difference being leadership.

[Raisei]

Not seeing it? Well, it's like how it would be if we say blamed the alliance for the destruction of a planet.

legion finding draenor cause dumb as hell magically inept orcs DON'T get legion attention normally and the magics that ruptured the planet only happen because the boys in blue with the golden lions had to vent their rage ....

Or maybe hold grudged against forces not even related to an event... lets keep going after stormwind for what Lordaeron did?

1) It is really really getting exhausting how the Draenei get blamed for the actions of the Legion. They are VICTIMS, they are NOT responsible for the actions of Sargeras. How can people still not get this? It is unbelievable...

2) It was Ner'zhul that destroyed the planet. Pretty sure he had not joined the Alliance. But ye, let us blame the Alliance for that too, because if the facts do not support our defense for the innocent green warmongers we just make new facts.

3) Or how about we blame the Lordaeronians for what Lordearon did. You might know them as "Forsaken" and find them among the Horde. And I am not even sure what Lordaeron did that you would blame them for?
If you mean Arthas then that was again Ner'zhul.
If you mean the camps then pray tell what else you would do with an invading army of blood-crazed demon worshippers that slaughtered your loved ones? Let them go free so they can murder some more? If anything Lordaeron was too lenient.

Thing is that at the end of WC3 they had corrupted beings not in control of their actions and then with TBC they came out with this whole "slaughtered enoguh of this never before revealed group to pave a road with their skulls...." storyline to re-taint the group as a whole. This would be like introducing a new race from argus that the saintly draenei wiped out before we meet their current incarnation...

WC3 actually showed beings that freely re-tainted themselves to murder forest gods and nightelves. Let's face it, Orcs are not the heroes of the story, they are not innocent beings that got corrupted. Every time they got corrupted they chose it because of a promise of more power, more conquest, more blood.

They have not contributed a single positive thing to Azeroth's culture because they do not have a culture outside of war. The best evidence is that Orgrimmar is still sitting in a wasteland, even though they have the combined resources of halve a dozen races with magical, druidic and elemental powers. If they would focus on improving their situation by means other then stealing land from other races then that place would be a paradise by now.

[Mehrunes]

Thank you for that link! As of always with story telling they prefer to stay with the "maybe she did, maybe she did not, who knows?"

However what I like to point out: You stated that saying "it was Sylvanas" while ignoring a source that says otherwise is alliance cherry picking - however, it is clearly not. Like srsly, Polygon is a third party site. Compare this to an official interview at Blizzcon.

It's not the players who are to blame if they don't know what the actual lore is supposed to be atm.

You mean the third party article that opens with "Polygon recently had the opportunity to sit down with Steve Danuser, senior narrative designer on World of Warcraft, and Steve Burke, senior designer and assistant quest lead."? There's... kinda a reason why the relevant bit about Wrathgate is written in quotation marks there.

[Tyze]

Meh. Garrosh was putting the 'War' back in Warcraft

[bowlink]

Meh. Garrosh was putting the 'War' back in Warcraft

Puhlease people who use that statement should stop playing wow and start playing r/outside if they want war for warsake. It even has better performance and graffics. Also the latest patch has been brutal

[Tyze]

Puhlease people who use that statement should stop playing wow and start playing r/outside if they want war for warsake. It even has better performance and graffics. Also the latest patch has been brutal

No flight masters are available atm and I'm in Scandinavia