SPOILERS: Shadowlands Lore Thread

[UndedoKoleda]

In Afterlives: Bastion it's shown that Kyrians can too. And very likely the Dreadlords. And also Sylvanas. And val'kyrs. And maybe even Helya? And perhaps the drust? And Bwonsamdi, no?

[Feanoro]

@Varodoc
And with Danuser's well known stance that existing lore is constraining, do you REALLY think he'll respect his own rules? We've already seen him lie through his teeth.

As soon as he thinks "dude, I'm going to write Character X BETTER than Metzen" (since that's the true theme of SL), bang, Character X will be a Necrolord able to hang out with us all he likes. If he can find a way to avoid being sued, Character X will have a Scourge themed TARDIS and lightsabers if Danuser feels like it.

[mrsohta]

In Afterlives: Bastion it's shown that Kyrians can too. And very likely the Dreadlords. And also Sylvanas. And val'kyrs. And maybe even Helya? And perhaps the drust? And Bwonsamdi, no?

Probably Arbiter was the only thing holding things together before it broke, it feels like anything can just leave

[rainhard]

Only the Necrolords are allowed to leave the Shadowlands.

And what about the kyrians? do they also not get out of the Shadowlands and potentially even the maw? And the characters and their value is very subjective.

[Varodoc]

And what about the kyrians? do they also not get out of the Shadowlands and potentially even the maw? And the characters and their value is very subjective.

1) Kyrians are not allowed to leave the Shadowlands. What Devos did was illegal. The job of the kyrians is to WAIT until the soul of the deceased enters the Shadowlands and joins the anima flow, and then guide it to Oribos, where it can be judged by the Arbiter. If you look at the Spirit Healers (who are kyrians), they don't appear in the living world, they appear in the ghostly limbo after you are slain. From there, they guide you to the Shadowlands straight to the Arbiter. It is not their duty to act in the material world of the living.

2) The Mawsworn can leave the Shadowlands because the veil between life and death has been broken. Otherwise, they are confined to the Maw.

[tommyhil622]

1) Kyrians are not allowed to leave the Shadowlands. What Devos did was illegal. The job of the kyrians is to WAIT until the soul of the deceased enters the Shadowlands and joins the anima flow, and then guide it to Oribos, where it can be judged by the Arbiter. If you look at the Spirit Healers (who are kyrians), they don't appear in the living world, they appear in the ghostly limbo after you are slain. From there, they guide you to the Shadowlands straight to the Arbiter. It is not their duty to act in the material world of the living.

2) The Mawsworn can leave the Shadowlands because the veil between life and death has been broken. Otherwise, they are confined to the Maw.

This is not accurate. The kyrians constantly leave the shadowlands to ferry souls from the realm of the living to the shadowlands. They constantly do this, because people are constantly dying in countless worlds/realms. Spirit Healers are Kyrians as well, and they are not in the shadowlands. They resurrect whose time is not yet for them to enter the shadowlands.

And what about the kyrians? do they also not get out of the Shadowlands and potentially even the maw? And the characters and their value is very subjective.

Correct.

[Varodoc]

This is not accurate. The kyrians constantly leave the shadowlands to ferry souls from the realm of the living to the shadowlands. They constantly do this, because people are constantly dying in countless worlds/realms. Spirit Healers are Kyrians as well, and they are not in the shadowlands. They resurrect whose time is not yet for them to enter the shadowlands.



Correct.

Did... did you not read my post? I literally addressed this in these lines:

If you look at the Spirit Healers (who are kyrians), they don't appear in the living world, they appear in the ghostly limbo after you are slain. From there, they guide you to the Shadowlands straight to the Arbiter. It is not their duty to act in the material world of the living.

That is why Danuser did NOT mention kyrians, but only necrolords. Kyrians cannot intervene in the world of the living, OUR world, meanwhile necrolords can. That's why the necrolords can fight the Legion soldiers in the material plane, while the kyrians can't.

[tommyhil622]

Did... did you not read my post? I literally addressed this in these lines:


That is why Danuser did NOT mention kyrians, but only necrolords. Kyrians cannot intervene in the world of the living, OUR world, meanwhile necrolords can. That's why the necrolords can fight the Legion soldiers in the material plane, while the kyrians can't.

You clarified but it was contradictory in your own post. Unnecessarily confusing. Spirit healers (in w/e dimension) are not in the shadowlands. So this is contradictory based on your previous posts.

Kyrians are not allowed to leave the Shadowlands.

^ This is completely false. Their main function is to leave the shadowlands in order to ferry souls. That's what I'm addressing.

In hindsight maybe you meant to say it differently?

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Random Note:

There's strong parallels between Slyvannas and Garrosh.

They both inherit the mantle of Warchief (without actually being the best choice) but somewhere along the line they lose their minds and become more villainous as the story progresses. They both cease to be Warchief and go off to start trouble and set the stage for the following expansion in another realm ...

Curious what her trajectory will be at this point? Will she die like Garrosh did or will she redirect to a better path?

[Varodoc]

You clarified but it was contradictory in your own post. Unnecessarily confusing. Spirit healers (in w/e dimension) are not in the shadowlands. So this is contradictory based on your previous posts.



^ This is completely false. Their main function is to leave the shadowlands in order to ferry souls. That's what I'm addressing.

In hindsight maybe you meant to say it differently?

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Random Note:

There's strong parallels between Slyvannas and Garrosh.

They both inherit the mantle of Warchief (without actually being the best choice) but somewhere along the line they lose their minds and become more villainous as the story progresses. They both cease to be Warchief and go off to start trouble and set the stage for the following expansion in another realm ...

Curious what her trajectory will be at this point? Will she die like Garrosh did or will she redirect to a better path?

Except for the fact that the ghostly version of Azeroth IS in the Shadowlands. For example, in the DK intro scenario you travel to the Shadowlands to get your horse, and the Shadowlands are shown as a ghostly version of Azeroth. Notice how the sky in this ghostly Azeroth resembles the endless stream of souls travelling to Oribos. This is still part of the Shadowlands:



And it is in THIS ghostly version of Azeroth that the kyrians (spirit healers) are waiting for you. They then disappear once you return to your corpse, and spawn back into the material world of the living.

They both inherit the mantle of Warchief (without actually being the best choice) but somewhere along the line they lose their minds and become more villainous as the story progresses. They both cease to be Warchief and go off to start trouble and set the stage for the following expansion in another realm ...

Curious what her trajectory will be at this point? Will she die like Garrosh did or will she redirect to a better path?

Not exactly in the case of Sylvanas. The plan that she had in BfA, and that she has in Shadowlands now, is the same plan she had back in Cataclysm. She always planned to become Warchief in order to start the Fourth War. She saved Varian at the Broken Shore because she wanted to garner support for her ascension as Warchief (confirmed by Blizzard). She ascended to the throne with a clear goal from the start, and it was to cause as much bloodshed as possible to empower both herself and Jailer. She did not become progressively crazier like Garrosh, this was all planned by her and Jailer from the start.

I think she will die and will not redeem herself, for a simple reason. Has she ever shown remorse AT ANY POINT for what she has done?

No, she has not. If you feel no remorse, you are not redeemable. If you genuinely believe you are right, then you also believe there is nothing to atone for, and thus you cannot be redeemed by anyone. She is never shown conflicted in her beliefs, she embraces her ideals and never falters.

And before you mention Grommash, I think Blizzard learned from that massive fiasco.

[Darknessvamp]

Except for the fact that the ghostly version of Azeroth IS in the Shadowlands. For example, in the DK intro scenario you travel to the Shadowlands to get your horse, and the Shadowlands are shown as a ghostly version of Azeroth. Notice how the sky in this ghostly Azeroth resembles the endless stream of souls travelling to Oribos. This is still part of the Shadowlands:
-img snip-

And it is in THIS ghostly version of Azeroth that the kyrians (spirit healers) are waiting for you. They then disappear once you return to your corpse, and spawn back into the material world of the living.

It's not a ghostly version of Azeroth anymore though, it is just Azeroth. The Shadowlands is now considered a completely separate realm and Kyrians (also known as Watchers) are constantly leaving it to become Spirit Healers in the living world which @tommyhil622 is right in stating, we just can't see them, but Kyrians (also known as Bearers) also leave the Shadowlands when summoned by a Spirit Healer when a soul needs to be brought to the Shadowlands.

https://sagamer.co.za/2020/05/28/a-d...eater-purpose/

We have met Watchers before, but might not have given them much notice. The Spirit Healers back home when you die? Those are kyrian Watchers.

Cash explains: “We have explored little slices of this before, but ultimately the Spirit Healers are kyrian. One of the kyrian roles is called Watchers and we know them as Spirit Healers on Azeroth and their role is to eternally evaluate souls. When you die and you are called to them, they peer into your inner self and evaluate whether you are ready to be dead. If you are, they call one of the other kyrian, called Bearers, to come and get you and bring your soul to the Shadowlands. If you aren’t ready, they return you to life, exactly how you see Spirit Healers work in the game. Players have something different about them: they are never quite ready for the Shadowlands, despite ending up there and that is an interesting thing specifically about some of the races of Azeroth.”

world-of-warcraft-whats-next-panel-recap

It’s the spirit healers who decide when it’s time for a soul to cross into the Shadowlands. Souls who arrive here are brought before the Arbiter, a mysterious and ancient being whose existence predates all memory...

This is what retcons do, the Shadowlands never existed as a part of Azeroth or in relation to Azeroth at all. It's just a separate realm, all we've seen is Azeroth in ghost vision.

[tommyhil622]

It's not a ghostly version of Azeroth anymore though, it is just Azeroth. The Shadowlands is now considered a completely separate realm and Kyrians (also known as Watchers) are constantly leaving it to become Spirit Healers in the living world which @tommyhil622 is right in stating, we just can't see them, but Kyrians (also known as Bearers) also leave the Shadowlands when summoned by a Spirit Healer when a soul needs to be brought to the Shadowlands.

https://sagamer.co.za/2020/05/28/a-d...eater-purpose/



world-of-warcraft-whats-next-panel-recap



This is what retcons do, the Shadowlands never existed as a part of Azeroth or in relation to Azeroth at all. It's just a separate realm, all we've seen is Azeroth in ghost vision.

Agreed, I couldn't have said it any better.

Yea the retcons can get fuzzy for sure. But tbh I like the current version of it, has some more depth to it now.

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Not exactly in the case of Sylvanas. The plan that she had in BfA, and that she has in Shadowlands now, is the same plan she had back in Cataclysm. She always planned to become Warchief in order to start the Fourth War. She saved Varian at the Broken Shore because she wanted to garner support for her ascension as Warchief (confirmed by Blizzard). She ascended to the throne with a clear goal from the start, and it was to cause as much bloodshed as possible to empower both herself and Jailer. She did not become progressively crazier like Garrosh, this was all planned by her and Jailer from the start.

I think she will die and will not redeem herself, for a simple reason. Has she ever shown remorse AT ANY POINT for what she has done?

No, she has not. If you feel no remorse, you are not redeemable. If you genuinely believe you are right, then you also believe there is nothing to atone for, and thus you cannot be redeemed by anyone. She is never shown conflicted in her beliefs, she embraces her ideals and never falters.

And before you mention Grommash, I think Blizzard learned from that massive fiasco.

The point still stands, they weren't the best choice for warchief, they did get crazier (externally) as time went on. She became unhinged more and more just like Garrosh did. This background stuff we were prevy to after the fact. They both lead to a new expac. And again all this background stuff we learned after it happened, not before. So the average viewer saw her taking the same path that Garrosh did.

As for her remorse, redemption by principle is given to those who don't deserve it. Her being remorseful can be completely irrelevant. All she has to be is useful in disposing/stopping the Jailer and that opens the door to many possibilities.

[LemonDemonGirl]

Except for the fact that the ghostly version of Azeroth IS in the Shadowlands. For example, in the DK intro scenario you travel to the Shadowlands to get your horse, and the Shadowlands are shown as a ghostly version of Azeroth. Notice how the sky in this ghostly Azeroth resembles the endless stream of souls travelling to Oribos. This is still part of the Shadowlands:



And it is in THIS ghostly version of Azeroth that the kyrians (spirit healers) are waiting for you. They then disappear once you return to your corpse, and spawn back into the material world of the living.

I like to think that the ghostly world our character end up in when they die is kind of a 'waiting room' in the Shadowlands. It IS part of it, but it's so close to the realm of the living that we can essentially see the living world (and still-living creatures), but as a ghostly reflection


(Oh and kinda off topic, but why does Bwonsamdi appear in that realm when we die in Zandalar? Is he just there for a non-serious reason, ex. to laugh at us?)

[Varodoc]

The point still stands, they weren't the best choice for warchief, they did get crazier (externally) as time went on. She became unhinged more and more just like Garrosh did. This background stuff we were prevy to after the fact. They both lead to a new expac. And again all this background stuff we learned after it happened, not before. So the average viewer saw her taking the same path that Garrosh did.

As for her remorse, redemption by principle is given to those who don't deserve it. Her being remorseful can be completely irrelevant. All she has to be is useful in disposing/stopping the Jailer and that opens the door to many possibilities.

The "background stuff" we learned in Shadowlands is still relevant, sorry. It literally explains why Sylvanas was acting in a certain way throughout Legion and BfA.

Garrosh did not want to become Warchief because he genuinely wanted to do good for the Horde, and thought he wasn't up to the task. Sylvanas did not care about any of that, in fact she actually WANTED to become Warchief. She conspired with Jailer and Mueh'zala to trick Vol'jin into giving her the throne. She did not become Warchief with the mindset "I'm going to do what's best for the Horde", she did not give a shit about the Horde. All she wanted to do was plunge the Horde into open warfare to send millions of souls to the Maw.

The only real time when she became "unhinged" is when she revealed her true nature at Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0. And even then, she regained her composure shortly after. She lamented how she messed up because she ended the war prematurely, but nonetheless she moved on, knowing she already gathered a huge amount of souls. Even the Burning of Teldrassil was not done because she got mad at a dying elf, it was done because she wanted a quick boost in power for herself and Jailer.

As for her remorse, redemption by principle is given to those who don't deserve it. Her being remorseful can be completely irrelevant. All she has to be is useful in disposing/stopping the Jailer and that opens the door to many possibilities.

What? Redemption, by principle, is given to those who WANT it. Darth Vader wanted redemption, that's why he listened to the words of his son and turned on his own master. He already felt remorse for what he did, since he killed countless people for nothing. Darth Sidious did not give a shit about redemption, that's why he never once listened to what Luke or anyone else had to say. Grommash redeemed himself because he genuinely felt remorse for plunging his people into corruption once again. Gul'dan did not redeem himself because he felt nothing for the countless innocents he butchered, he did not give a shit, so why would he think he had anything to atone for? In his mind he did nothing of note.

Likewise, Sylvanas doesn't give a shit about redemption. She has never felt any remorse ever. Tell me when she ever showed remorse or disbelief for the things she did after meeting the Jailer -- you can't. She is genuinely deluded that she's the good guy. It's not even complex storytelling, Sylvanas is a textbook example of a well-intentioned, but completely delusional, extremist. The Story teaser proves it. She is not someone like Gul'dan who kills people for fun. She rationalizes genocide because she believes she is genuinely working for the interests of all mortals by serving the Jailer, who can help her literally shatter the cosmos and usher in a new age for everyone. And not once does she ever falter in her beliefs in the plan. Did she ever say in BfA "You know champion, maybe I should reconsider my plan..."? NO.

And tell me, what has Blizzard consistently said since the BfA pre-patch? "Sylvanas does not kill people for fun, she has a plan, and you will discover what that plan is."

I like to think that the ghostly world our character end up in when they die is kind of a 'waiting room' in the Shadowlands. It IS part of it, but it's so close to the realm of the living that we can essentially see the living world (and still-living creatures), but as a ghostly reflection


(Oh and kinda off topic, but why does Bwonsamdi appear in that realm when we die in Zandalar? Is he just there for a non-serious reason, ex. to laugh at us?)

Yes. That's why I described it as a limbo between the Shadowlands proper and the living world.

I'm not going to consider it as part of living Azeroth because, quite clearly, it isn't, since it has a ghostly filter and only ghosts appear in it. It's the same concept as Argus and the Nether. Argus was not in the Nether proper, but it was still saturated by it and very close to it, which made it virtually a part of the Nether. Same thing here. I mean, you literally see the Shadowlands when you look up at the ghostly sky.

I'll go as far as to say that Blizzard already had a general idea of Oribos back in CLASSIC, since the sky of ghostly Azeroth clearly resembles a stream of souls converging in one exact point -- Oribos.

[Houle]

The "background stuff" we learned in Shadowlands is still relevant, sorry. It literally explains why Sylvanas was acting in a certain way throughout Legion and BfA.

Garrosh did not want to become Warchief because he genuinely wanted to do good for the Horde, and thought he wasn't up to the task. Sylvanas did not care about any of that, in fact she actually WANTED to become Warchief. She conspired with Jailer and Mueh'zala to trick Vol'jin into giving her the throne. She did not become Warchief with the mindset "I'm going to do what's best for the Horde", she did not give a shit about the Horde. All she wanted to do was plunge the Horde into open warfare to send millions of souls to the Maw.

The only real time when she became "unhinged" is when she revealed her true nature at Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0. And even then, she regained her composure shortly after. She lamented how she messed up because she ended the war prematurely, but nonetheless she moved on, knowing she already gathered a huge amount of souls. Even the Burning of Teldrassil was not done because she got mad at a dying elf, it was done because she wanted a quick boost in power for herself and Jailer.


What? Redemption, by principle, is given to those who WANT it. Darth Vader wanted redemption, that's why he listened to the words of his son and turned on his own master. He already felt remorse for what he did, since he killed countless people for nothing. Darth Sidious did not give a shit about redemption, that's why he never once listened to what Luke or anyone else had to say. Grommash redeemed himself because he genuinely felt remorse for plunging his people into corruption once again. Gul'dan did not redeem himself because he felt nothing for the countless innocents he butchered, he did not give a shit, so why would he think he had anything to atone for? In his mind he did nothing of note.

Likewise, Sylvanas doesn't give a shit about redemption. She has never felt any remorse ever. Tell me when she ever showed remorse or disbelief for the things she did after meeting the Jailer -- you can't. She is genuinely deluded that she's the good guy. It's not even complex storytelling, Sylvanas is a textbook example of a well-intentioned, but completely delusional, extremist. The Story teaser proves it. She is not someone like Gul'dan who kills people for fun. She rationalizes genocide because she believes she is genuinely working for the interests of all mortals by serving the Jailer, who can help her literally shatter the cosmos and usher in a new age for everyone. And not once does she ever falter in her beliefs in the plan. Did she ever say in BfA "You know champion, maybe I should reconsider my plan..."? NO.

And tell me, what has Blizzard consistently said since the BfA pre-patch? "Sylvanas does not kill people for fun, she has a plan, and you will discover what that plan is."



Yes. That's why I described it as a limbo between the Shadowlands proper and the living world.

I'm not going to consider it as part of living Azeroth because, quite clearly, it isn't, since it has a ghostly filter and only ghosts appear in it. It's the same concept as Argus and the Nether. Argus was not in the Nether proper, but it was still saturated by it and very close to it, which made it virtually a part of the Nether. Same thing here. I mean, you literally see the Shadowlands when you look up at the ghostly sky.

I'll go as far as to say that Blizzard already had a general idea of Oribos back in CLASSIC, since the sky of ghostly Azeroth clearly resembles a stream of souls converging in one exact point -- Oribos.

yeah thats just delusional. nothing about shadowlands existed back in classic. blizz doesnt think that far ahead, as they themselves admitted.
you WANT blizz to have a real plan behind this, which is why you try to make one up for them. but they dont, and SL is full of retcons and bs.

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So far. This is the worst writing you've seen so far. The lore of Shadowlands is still young and Danuser is a man with a mission.

danuser is a man of focus (on sylvanas). commitment (to is sylwaifu). sheer fucking will (to make sylvanas the wow god).

[Varodoc]

yeah thats just delusional. nothing about shadowlands existed back in classic. blizz doesnt think that far ahead, as they themselves admitted.
you WANT blizz to have a real plan behind this, which is why you try to make one up for them. but they dont, and SL is full of retcons and bs.

1) It's not "delusional" since I explained thoroughly why I think they already had a concept of Oribos back in Classic. No, I don't believe in coincidences when there's even the slightest possibility that it was intentional. Then again, the moment I read the word "delusional" I knew you're not arguing in good faith.
2) Having a general outline of a location in the WoW verse =/= Already having the storyline of an expansion figured out. Arthas and Uther mentioned Hell in WC3, that doesn't mean Blizzard already had Shadowlands planned back then, but it does mean that they already had a rough outline of the Shadowlands.

[Ersula]

Really? Then that's very disappointing. I think Kael'thas would admire the tenacity and courage of Umbric. Discovering new sources of magic and bending said magic to protect Quel'thalas was definitely part of Kael'thas' philosophy.

Is this what I sound like when I defend the Forsaken? Void magic can't defend Quel'thalas, because of the sunwell, void magic would literally destroy it. There's sympathy for the rin'dorei but this is just investing in their delusion.

[Varodoc]

Is this what I sound like when I defend the Forsaken? Void magic can't defend Quel'thalas, because of the sunwell, void magic would literally destroy it. There's sympathy for the rin'dorei but this is just investing in their delusion.

You... You do realize Kael'thas wouldn't know that the Sunwell was purified by the Light, right?

[Alanar]

What took the Cake for me during the Kyrian Covenant questline, take a Kyrian with you into the maw to fight a fallen Kyrian (Lysonia) who has now become a Mawsworn then you bring back the Kyrian (Kleia) and save Uther and bring him out of the maw as well. I'm like wth is going on here lol.

Hence the reason why I saw so many people laugh in their.reaction videos. First thing they said when the video was over: hu? The first thing you do when you get into the maw is to out lol.

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You... You do realize Kael'thas wouldn't know that the Sunwell was purified by the Light, right?

Kael wouldnt know about void elves either. He still talks about how he always wanted to save hes hes people in the beta. If he find out about void powers desttoying the sunwell a second time I dont think he will admire umbric so much.

[Ersula]

You... You do realize Kael'thas wouldn't know that the Sunwell was purified by the Light, right?

Just like how he didn't think the Legion would destroy the planet. He may not have known demons wanted to destroy the planet but he knows void lords do.

[Varodoc]

Just like how he didn't think the Legion would destroy the planet. He may not have known demons wanted to destroy the planet but he knows void lords do.

What are you saying? His last words were literally "The Legion will burn this entire world!!!!". And he was not mind-controlled, it was not Kil'jaeden speaking through him, that was the actual Kael'thas, wishing doom upon Quel'Thalas and all of Azeroth. So you can't even use the "He was corrupted by the Legion" excuse, because he was not mind-controlled. There was always a great darkness within him, and Kil'jaeden exploited it.

He even attacked Silvermoon itself to achieve his crazy goals. He was an unstable psychopath, so someone using the Void for inherently good intentions wouldn't freak him out or worry him. If anything, it would intrigue him. He'd probably say "What? You are telling me that there was another power that could've potentially offered the salvation of my homeland? Interesting."

Also, he probably doesn't even know who the Void Lords are. Void Lords are not in any way public knowledge. There are only a few select mortals who know about the Void Lords. Alleria, Umbric, maybe Velen and High Astromancer Solarian, but certainly not Kael'thas. He never even mentions the Void once in his life. How would he even know about them? It's not exactly a subject you would read on a history book in Dalaran.