[Spoilers] Shadowlands: Afterlives Cinematic Discussion

[Frontenac]

The thing is, if Uther's soul was split in two after being slain by Frostmourne, it is strongly implied that the same could have happened with this other victims - namely Sylvanas.

On the contrary, I think that it is strongly implied that Uther is the only one. He was not the first nor the last person (or even paladin) to get killed by Frostmourne. If such split had occured before, they would have noticed it in Bastion on other aspirants. Or other covenants would have noticed it. Yet, the idea of souls being lost to Frostmourne, a weapon from the Maw, on the mortal world is something totally new (and unthinkable, it seems) to all Kyrians except Devos.

[Mehrunes]

I wasn't talking about Bastion nor is it relevant. The Light saved part of his soul, he went before the Arbiter and ends up in Bastion. It's not really speculation when we see that happen minus the Arbiter.

Given how the Light is not exactly friendly towards Shadowlands and that they most likely can take souls (vide Bridenbrad), why on earth would they not take Uther's soul and let it go to the Bastion instead?

On the contrary, I think that it is strongly implied that Uther is the only one. He was not the first nor the last person (or even paladin) to get killed by Frostmourne. If such split had occured before, they would have noticed it in Bastion on other aspirants. Or other covenants would have noticed it. Yet, the idea of souls being lost to Frostmourne, a weapon from the Maw, on the mortal world is something totally new (and unthinkable, it seems) to all Kyrians except Devos.

Given the infinite number of Shadowland pocket realms, there's nothing guaranteeing that other Frotmourne victims went to one with a Covenant. Maybe they went to realms that religiously practice social distancing or ones where you get transformed into a statue immediately after arriving. Besides, we don't know if natives of other Shadowland realms (well, except Revendreth, but we know no Forstmourne victim that went there) can even read a soul's memories as easily as Devos did. Or if they'd even be interested to try.

[Varodoc]

Maldraxxus is the realm that was attacked by Void forces in the past, right? If so I am looking forward to the Maldraxxus cinematic, hopefully it delves into the relationship between Shadowlands and the cosmic forces of Void and Light.

[Maljinwo]

So... With Shadowlands messing with death..

Whats with all the ghosts we've seen in Azeroth?
Are they also split souls?
The Arbiter left them for reasons?
What happened with every soul that was freed from Frostmourne?
When Warlocks use souls, they dont fuck up the Shadowlands?
What about them using their soul stones? Cant the Arbiter or whoever stop them?
Bwonsamdi has taken trolls and even Mogu on his realm. Do they go through the Arbiter or is he more independent?


Fuck. My head

[Aucald]

Maldraxxus is the realm that was attacked by Void forces in the past, right? If so I am looking forward to the Maldraxxus cinematic, hopefully it delves into the relationship between Shadowlands and the cosmic forces of Void and Light.

Both Maldraxxus and Bastion have been attacked by the Void. Maldraxxus only mentions these attacks during the leveling quests, whereas in Bastion there is a max-level questline that actually lets you experience the attack as a memory of sorts:




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So... With Shadowlands messing with death..

Whats with all the ghosts we've seen in Azeroth?
Are they also split souls?
The Arbiter left them for reasons?
What happened with every soul that was freed from Frostmourne?
When Warlocks use souls, they dont fuck up the Shadowlands?
What about them using their soul stones? Cant the Arbiter or whoever stop them?
Bwonsamdi has taken trolls and even Mogu on his realm. Do they go through the Arbiter or is he more independent?


Fuck. My head

Ghosts and spirits can apparently be pulled or summoned out of the Shadowlands on special occasions - they don't seem to remember their time in the Shadowlands, either; except for hazy and partial recollection. The Arbiter doesn't really control the minutiae of spirits beyond their judgment, once they're judged they're sent onward to their ultimate destination. Presumably the souls captured by Frostmourne eventually journey to the Shadowlands, but we know some of them were so tortured by their time in the Lich King's thrall that remain unable to move on (souls such as Halakh and Magroth were more or less "stuck" in Icecrown Citadel. Warlocks utterly consume souls to power their Fel magic, so those souls are simply lost and never move on to the Shadowlands' ecosystem - this is beyond the Arbiter's mandate and ability to interfere with (if it even occurs to the Arbiter to interfere). Bwonsamdi is an appointed psychopomp not unlike the Kyrians, and may opt to bring souls direct to the Other Side bypassing judgment, or else keeps them for a time before bringing them to their ultimate judgment.

[Maljinwo]

Holy shit @Aucald it was meant to be an exageration

[Aucald]

Holy shit @Aucald it was meant to be an exageration

Uh, sorry? My general MO to seeing questions is to answer them insofar as I'm able.

[Dhomeli]

Both Maldraxxus and Bastion have been attacked by the Void. Maldraxxus only mentions these attacks during the leveling quests, whereas in Bastion there is a max-level questline that actually lets you experience the attack as a memory of sorts:

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Ghosts and spirits can apparently be pulled or summoned out of the Shadowlands on special occasions - they don't seem to remember their time in the Shadowlands, either; except for hazy and partial recollection. The Arbiter doesn't really control the minutiae of spirits beyond their judgment, once they're judged they're sent onward to their ultimate destination. Presumably the souls captured by Frostmourne eventually journey to the Shadowlands, but we know some of them were so tortured by their time in the Lich King's thrall that remain unable to move on (souls such as Halakh and Magroth were more or less "stuck" in Icecrown Citadel. Warlocks utterly consume souls to power their Fel magic, so those souls are simply lost and never move on to the Shadowlands' ecosystem - this is beyond the Arbiter's mandate and ability to interfere with (if it even occurs to the Arbiter to interfere). Bwonsamdi is an appointed psychopomp not unlike the Kyrians, and may opt to bring souls direct to the Other Side bypassing judgment, or else keeps them for a time before bringing them to their ultimate judgment.

I've been wondering how this relates to undead. Take Thoras Trollbane. He died sometime after the Second War. Then, in Legion, the Knights of the Ebon Blade raise him as one of the four horsemen. Does this mean the Death Knights pulled his spirit out of the Shadowlands, years after he had likely "settled into" a Covenant? Then he forgets all about his time in the Shadowlands (or at least mostly forgets)... and if he dies again the Arbiter would judge his soul again?

[Aucald]

I've been wondering how this relates to undead. Take Thoras Trollbane. He died sometime after the Second War. Then, in Legion, the Knights of the Ebon Blade raise him as one of the four horsemen. Does this mean the Death Knights pulled his spirit out of the Shadowlands, years after he had likely "settled into" a Covenant? Then he forgets all about his time in the Shadowlands (or at least mostly forgets)... and if he dies again the Arbiter would judge his soul again?

Presumably so, yes. Not every soul that ventures to the Shadowlands actually joins a Covenant, though; the Covenant-realms are like the capitols of the Shadowlands or its most important nation-states - but the Shadowlands are infinite and the number of possible afterlife outcomes equally so. Thoras Trollbane could've been in some sort of heavenly analogue realm (the one that Sylvanas and Wyll Benton seemed to glimpse on the occasion of their deaths) for all we know - existing in a kind of timeless paradise before the Deathlord yanked his soul back into the physical universe and resurrected him as a Horseman.

I would imagine a soul returning to the Shadowlands would be judged by the Arbiter once more for deeds it had done in the continuance of its existence, undead or no. What kinds of mitigating circumstances would be at play are entirely unknown, though.

[Edward Wu]

The only thing this cinematic doesn't address is Uther's presence at his tomb pre-Wrath. That one is likely just going to have to be entirely retconned out of existence unfortunately.

[Aucald]

The only thing this cinematic doesn't address is Uther's presence at his tomb pre-Wrath. That one is likely just going to have to be entirely retconned out of existence unfortunately.

If Uther's soul was split on the occasion of his death, with a portion being claimed by Frostmourne and a portion going on to exist in Bastion, then this reconciles both his appearance in the Halls of Reflection (broadcast from within Frostmourne), as well as his appearance at his tomb in Legion as that portion would've been freed when Frostmourne was broken and eventually came to haunt his tomb as a shade.

[Edward Wu]

If Uther's soul was split on the occasion of his death, with a portion being claimed by Frostmourne and a portion going on to exist in Bastion, then this reconciles both his appearance in the Halls of Reflection (broadcast from within Frostmourne), as well as his appearance at his tomb in Legion as that portion would've been freed when Frostmourne was broken and eventually came to haunt his tomb as a shade.

It does indeed, but I remember around BC we had an NPC called Mehlor Dawnblade who launched a quest to defile Uther's tomb, which culminated in Uther's spirit materializing to express sorrow at how his former student had changed.

[bagina]

Both Maldraxxus and Bastion have been attacked by the Void. Maldraxxus only mentions these attacks during the leveling quests, whereas in Bastion there is a max-level questline that actually lets you experience the attack as a memory of sorts:




- - - Updated - - -



Ghosts and spirits can apparently be pulled or summoned out of the Shadowlands on special occasions - they don't seem to remember their time in the Shadowlands, either; except for hazy and partial recollection. The Arbiter doesn't really control the minutiae of spirits beyond their judgment, once they're judged they're sent onward to their ultimate destination. Presumably the souls captured by Frostmourne eventually journey to the Shadowlands, but we know some of them were so tortured by their time in the Lich King's thrall that remain unable to move on (souls such as Halakh and Magroth were more or less "stuck" in Icecrown Citadel. Warlocks utterly consume souls to power their Fel magic, so those souls are simply lost and never move on to the Shadowlands' ecosystem - this is beyond the Arbiter's mandate and ability to interfere with (if it even occurs to the Arbiter to interfere). Bwonsamdi is an appointed psychopomp not unlike the Kyrians, and may opt to bring souls direct to the Other Side bypassing judgment, or else keeps them for a time before bringing them to their ultimate judgment.

Void's forces as well as Light's and some unspecified ones too. SL are in constant battle with other cosmic forces. Which is interesting. Really interesting... It might be important later.

[Aucald]

It does indeed, but I remember around BC we had an NPC called Mehlor Dawnblade who launched a quest to defile Uther's tomb, which culminated in Uther's spirit materializing to express sorrow at how his former student had changed.

That one would indeed be difficult to explain, but then it always was as we also knew that Uther had been consumed by Frostmourne by the point as well (back in WC3). It's possible that the shade of Uther within Frostmourne was somehow able to briefly manifest - perhaps due to the Lich King's internal struggle between Ner'zhul and Arthas before Arthas claimed complete control of their co-mingled psyche prior to WotLK. Or it's just subject to a retcon and no longer canon itself.

[Feanoro]

So... With Shadowlands messing with death..

Whats with all the ghosts we've seen in Azeroth?
Are they also split souls?
The Arbiter left them for reasons?
What happened with every soul that was freed from Frostmourne?
When Warlocks use souls, they dont fuck up the Shadowlands?
What about them using their soul stones? Cant the Arbiter or whoever stop them?
Bwonsamdi has taken trolls and even Mogu on his realm. Do they go through the Arbiter or is he more independent?


Fuck. My head

Isn't it fun knowing you've put more thought into it than the overpaid hacks at Blizz?

[LemonDemonGirl]

m
Bwonsamdi has taken trolls and even Mogu on his realm. Do they go through the Arbiter or is he more independent?

I think Bwonsamdi can just pull souls into his realm whenever he wants to? He seems/seemed to be a Psychopomp for Mueh'Zala but I think he can do his own thing now

[formerShandalay]

As far as I can see with the info that is out up to this point, souls don't usually just go to the Shadowlands, or at least not all souls. They get carried there by the Kyrian, who take them to the Arbiter. But! they don't have to. If they abandon their 'path' like Devos did, they can also simply throw souls into the Maw right after snatching them from their deathbed.
I bet the Loas of Death can do that too. Bwonsamdi and Mueh'zala both and I also bet that Muehzala has been doing this for a very long time. Sneakily at first, because no one was supposed to notice, until the Jailer got strong enough to openly intervene on Azeroth.
Bwonsamdi has been doing what he was supposed to, getting the souls he was due for himself and when Mueh'zala's plan got too bad for him, he started opposing Mueh'zala and is now keeping the Troll souls from going anywhere but De Other Side. In Shadows Rising he says he has been helping Mueh'zala in the past, because that's kind of what his job was, but now it's all a bit too bad and he doesn't want to help Mueh'zala anymore. Which leads right into the story of De Other Side ingame. Also, from the quests in BfA we know that Bwonsamdi seems to have a 'nice' and a 'punishing' afterlife personally, without sending souls to Revendreth. Maybe Mueh'zala was the one responsible for the punishing part in the past and at some point simply threw those souls into the Maw, when he joined the Jailer.

We also know that Elune can snatch souls and take them to the Shadowlands, also bypassing the Arbiter, at least before the 'drought' began, because Ysera went straight to Ardenweald, without going to the Arbiter first as one of the last souls to get there.

[Maljinwo]

Uh, sorry? My general MO to seeing questions is to answer them insofar as I'm able.

It's all good! I just meant to make a joke about the storm of question messing with the afterlife caused

[Sarethion]

Given how the Light is not exactly friendly towards Shadowlands and that they most likely can take souls (vide Bridenbrad), why on earth would they not take Uther's soul and let it go to the Bastion instead?

I'm honestly confused by this - I went through the quests on the wiki and I didn't really see anything that said Bridenbrad was taken "to the Light", only that the Light "takes care of its own" and "he shall taste only paradise". First can be explained by not allowing Bridenbrad to be cursed with undeath, second by A'dal knowing how the Shadowlands work and being convinced that he'd go to a paradise-like afterlife.

I'm specifically talking about this quest:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/The_Boon_of_A%27dal

What am I missing?

[Kathranis]

That one would indeed be difficult to explain, but then it always was as we also knew that Uther had been consumed by Frostmourne by the point as well (back in WC3). It's possible that the shade of Uther within Frostmourne was somehow able to briefly manifest - perhaps due to the Lich King's internal struggle between Ner'zhul and Arthas before Arthas claimed complete control of their co-mingled psyche prior to WotLK. Or it's just subject to a retcon and no longer canon itself.

Could be that his soul lingered on Azeroth for a time before the Kyrians came to claim it. Maybe the Light was trying to keep him and Dawnblade defiling his tomb broke its hold over his soul, allowing Devos to find him.

Or it's just noncanon now, as much of BC is, though I feel this would be adequate explanation for the plot hole.