So is Shadowlands good?

[Kel_Sceptic]

so what if its 1-2 hours a week when its just not fun 2 hours.

thats the general problem with SL

nothing feels fun to do . everything feels like a drag just to gate us for sake of gating.

Then you either didn't played BFA at all, since in BFA if it were just 1-2 hours of stuff NEEDED TO DO, I would have not quit at all for ~1year.
Or maybe it feels fun farming 2 weeks, 5x14hours=70hours just Primal Fire in TBC, just to be able to make 3 blue items to be ready for Karazhan.

And if your time is not that important and you got loads to spare, that maybe it is simply a matter of taste, and taste is not discussable.

[grandgato]

Too early to tell.

I only do solo/lfr/lfd content, so i clear through the stuff i want to do pretty quickly in a week. We'll see what 9.1 brings.

I wish there were some gear progression systems built into the maw/torghast similar to how honor is working with pvp now. The PVE side feels kind of shallow without a currency system to combat bad rng.

[kamuimac]

Then you either didn't played BFA at all, since in BFA if it were just 1-2 hours of stuff NEEDED TO DO, I would have not quit at all for ~1year.
Or maybe it feels fun farming 2 weeks, 5x14hours=70hours just Primal Fire in TBC, just to be able to make 3 blue items to be ready for Karazhan.

And if your time is not that important and you got loads to spare, that maybe it is simply a matter of taste, and taste is not discussable.

i played through whole of BfA and i had fun playing it - never felt like i need to do anything - i wanted to do things because everything i didn could provide me with char developement.

i dont have fun playing SL - i dont want to do things that are not rewarding as rewards in SL are not existing.

yes it is that simple.

[WowIsDead64]

I've changed my mind. Everything looked good in theory, but is bad on practice. Only weekly content worth something and it's obviously weekly-gated. Calls are pointless. Only reward - is pointless rep and 1.5k gold. They don't even grant Renown after 10lvl. I don't know, why I still do them. And design of some WQs is completely broken. Leveling is boring. At least now I don't want to level more alts. So what? I can log in once a week to complete time-gated Covenant campaign? I don't think such content worth my sub fee.

[Kel_Sceptic]

I've changed my mind. Everything looked good in theory, but is bad on practice. Only weekly content worth something and it's obviously weekly-gated. Calls are pointless. Only reward - is pointless rep and 1.5k gold. They don't even grant Renown after 10lvl. I don't know, why I still do them. And design of some WQs is completely broken. Leveling is boring. At least now I don't want to level more alts. So what? I can log in once a week to complete time-gated Covenant campaign? I don't think such content worth my sub fee.

Well, that is exactly it, if you don't think it is worth it to you or it has more bad > good, then it is fine to unsub.

You don't have to do any that you don't want, why do calls if you don't enjoy them ? Why do PvE if you only enjoy doing PvP ? Why do PvP if you only enjoy doing PvE ?
If you don't want to do raid/m+/pvp, then this game is kind of shallow since it's core is the raid/m+/pvp and everything else should be treated like bonuses.

LE: btw, about the sub, I've payed so many times the sub at the gym and I went only for 1-2 days, that didn't meant that the gym was bad, it was purely a me thing. I've payed WoW so many months while playing like just 5-10 days of the whole month, again a me thing.
The only time I've stopped playing it for 1 year was during BFA. Then again that was a ME thing, since it didn't respect my free time and was forcing me in doing PvE while all I wanted was PvP.
You can't force it upon yourself to like it or not. Either you do or you don't.

If you feel it doesn't respect you time, your needs, etc. then thats it There's a understandable think to see a player that plays the game, to read about the game and stuff. The weird stuff is to hate it and still be part of it ... looks just like a bad marriage, you complain about it and still live in it.

i played through whole of BfA and i had fun playing it - never felt like i need to do anything - i wanted to do things because everything i didn could provide me with char developement.

i dont have fun playing SL - i dont want to do things that are not rewarding as rewards in SL are not existing.

yes it is that simple.

If you've played PvE, it might not felt so chooring as it did for a PvP only player. Can't argue that.
But as far as the gearing goes, BFA had gear showered on everyone and that was a sh1771 thing. To recieve 4 shoulders in the same day, 3 belts other day, 4 boots another day and so on. It made loot feel worhless or not remembarable.


As for people that say "too early to tell", respect your decision, just one question: When you are making love, do you need the whole process to end/finish to know if it is good or not ? I can't belive there are people playing this, forcing themselfs to do something with the ease of mind that "maybe 9.1 will bring something I will enjoy".

But yeah, probably the topic should be "So is shadowlands good so far ?".

[Cazze]

I've changed my mind. Everything looked good in theory, but is bad on practice. Only weekly content worth something and it's obviously weekly-gated. Calls are pointless. Only reward - is pointless rep and 1.5k gold. They don't even grant Renown after 10lvl. I don't know, why I still do them. And design of some WQs is completely broken. Leveling is boring. At least now I don't want to level more alts. So what? I can log in once a week to complete time-gated Covenant campaign? I don't think such content worth my sub fee.

If you don't want to engage in the myriad of other things, then yes, cancelling your sub and not worrying daily why the game is so shit will set you free(inb4 sylvans). If you don't enjoy the game at all just don't bother playing it, you will feel better.

Also, to all the people not finding fun things that existed in this game for literally decades, it is not the game's problem. It's fine to take a break.
Look at me, I play at most 4 months of an expansion but I usually enjoy myself immensely. To me, people saying they are deciding not to sub for A MONTH because they don't like the game is baffling. Just take a break, come back when/if you feel like playing again, even blizzard expects you to do so. There is no reason to force yourself to play if you don't enjoy the game or got bored. Really no reason at all.

[kamuimac]

Well, that is exactly it, if you don't think it is worth it to you or it has more bad > good, then it is fine to unsub.

You don't have to do any that you don't want, why do calls if you don't enjoy them ? Why do PvE if you only enjoy doing PvP ? Why do PvP if you only enjoy doing PvE ?
If you don't want to do raid/m+/pvp, then this game is kind of shallow since it's core is the raid/m+/pvp and everything else should be treated like bonuses.

LE: btw, about the sub, I've payed so many times the sub at the gym and I went only for 1-2 days, that didn't meant that the gym was bad, it was purely a me thing. I've payed WoW so many months while playing like just 5-10 days of the whole month, again a me thing.
The only time I've stopped playing it for 1 year was during BFA. Then again that was a ME thing, since it didn't respect my free time and was forcing me in doing PvE while all I wanted was PvP.
You can't force it upon yourself to like it or not. Either you do or you don't.

If you feel it doesn't respect you time, your needs, etc. then thats it There's a understandable think to see a player that plays the game, to read about the game and stuff. The weird stuff is to hate it and still be part of it ... looks just like a bad marriage, you complain about it and still live in it.



If you've played PvE, it might not felt so chooring as it did for a PvP only player. Can't argue that.
But as far as the gearing goes, BFA had gear showered on everyone and that was a sh1771 thing. To recieve 4 shoulders in the same day, 3 belts other day, 4 boots another day and so on. It made loot feel worhless or not remembarable.


As for people that say "too early to tell", respect your decision, just one question: When you are making love, do you need the whole process to end/finish to know if it is good or not ? I can't belive there are people playing this, forcing themselfs to do something with the ease of mind that "maybe 9.1 will bring something I will enjoy".

But yeah, probably the topic should be "So is shadowlands good so far ?".

the gym analogy is nice - lets expand on it.

imagine if you had gym you really enjoyed - tons of machines , tons of free weights , sauna, many gym classes to choose from going from 6-23 etc etc

one day you come in , 3/4 of machines is gone , those that are left are only extremly heavy weights and the temperature in sauna never is above 50 degrees and all gym classes are gone besides that 1 that you never enjoyed.

would you leave such place ?

ofc you would.

and its not you - the gym changed overnight to only suit those 3 guys that are there only for max weights .

thats SLs. completly decimated for casuals expansion

[Kel_Sceptic]

the gym analogy is nice - lets expand on it.

imagine if you had gym you really enjoyed - tons of machines , tons of free weights , sauna, many gym classes to choose from going from 6-23 etc etc

one day you come in , 3/4 of machines is gone , those that are left are only extremly heavy weights and the temperature in sauna never is above 50 degrees and all gym classes are gone besides that 1 that you never enjoyed.

would you leave such place ?

ofc you would.

and its not you - the gym changed overnight to only suit those 3 guys that are there only for max weights.

The gym analogy has its place since people that actually went to gym, know that even if you enjoy the gym and you went there 1-2-3 months or 1-2-3 years, there are periods of time when even if you know that the gym is good, that exercising is good, you still can get in the mood to work it out.

Again, the core of wow is RAID/M+/PVP, and just a little bit of solo WQ stuff like that. Those are not removed from the game, and are better then ever. The rest are bonuses, are things that don't make you stay in game longer no matter how good they are.
Sure, I don't have a point on the loot drop rates, maybe it is too low, maybe it is not, but that is a very simple issue that can be fixed overnight.
Other systems like azerite traits, corruption or no-pvp-vendors were issues that required an entire big patch or expansion for them to dissapear.


Visions took 20mins per run, and after doing them you are done.
Mage tower was a challange that took a few days until you get it done, then that was about it.
Thorgast Layer 8 same thing, I really don't understand why people were whining this is hard, when all they had to do is layer 4 and thats about it. People that enjoy stuff, don't whine that it is too hard.

thats SLs. completly decimated for casuals expansion

If it is for casuals, then it means TBC and WotLK were casual only aswel.
Because it lets you decide and use your brain on what you wanna do in game, doesn't mean it is for casuals.
Either some people don't got jobs and are enjoying this feeling of being put to work and they wanna make their "boss" proud by doing anything he asks without having time to ask themself if they enjoy it or not ... or dunno

[Yoshimiko]

I enjoy it more than BFA, but I rate BFA at the bottom with WOD.

My only gripe is you have to spam M+/Raid for PVP gear. 190 ilvl going against 210-215 ilvl people is silly.

[Kel_Sceptic]

I enjoy it more than BFA, but I rate BFA at the bottom with WOD.

My only gripe is you have to spam M+/Raid for PVP gear. 190 ilvl going against 210-215 ilvl people is silly.

I feel you bro, but I'm a stuborn sun of a bi7ch and this expansion I started with the ideea "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY".
That being said I've done JUST 4 Normal Dungeons, the quests that are giving at the end of each zone.
Never done 1 heroic dungeon, 1 mythic dungeon or lfr/normal/heroic raid.

I am ilvl 196 today and just hit 1600 cr yesterday after 2 weeks of struggling like hell between 1566 and 1250.
From a PvP player's PoV, yeah, I really wished that the ranges of ilvl were down a notch, and you had ilvl 213 at 1400, 220 at 1600 and 226 at 1800. BUT, that doesn't helps much since conquest gear is capped. Now I have weapon (bought it today after 3 weeks of conquest farm) and 3 other 213 items from weekly vault.
Being 1900cr in BFA didn't help much since it was hard as hell to hit the 1600 mark. I really hope to see some big changes in my gameplay, now with a weapon with 27ilvl more.

[oldgeezer]

I've changed my mind. Everything looked good in theory, but is bad on practice. Only weekly content worth something and it's obviously weekly-gated. Calls are pointless. Only reward - is pointless rep and 1.5k gold. They don't even grant Renown after 10lvl. I don't know, why I still do them. And design of some WQs is completely broken. Leveling is boring. At least now I don't want to level more alts. So what? I can log in once a week to complete time-gated Covenant campaign? I don't think such content worth my sub fee.

Yep, I agree with all of this. The developers seem to want to actively punish the players at this point. There's just no incentive to play. It's weird. For the first time in essentially forever, I have no interest in levelling alts up in current content. Zero. Maybe being able to fly again will help. Who knows.

[Kel_Sceptic]

And that sounds fun, interesting and "new" to you?. It sounds more like a job.

And no, i haven't play it. I have been watching streamers and other videos of it so far, and it doesn't look remotely interesting so far.

But still, i miss my characters, specially my dwarves, but with that "content", no thanks.

Yes, I've done Thorgast, 5 portals on Layer 8 and 1 portal Layer 7. I really enjoy it, and if it wears of, maximum 1h a week, IF NEEDED, I will do it. For me Thorgast is really fun as Visions were, just with less stress since there's no problem if you fail it. I got 4610 Soul Ash but I have no need to spend it for the moment.


If you miss your characters and stuff, at least 30 days of playing will worth your time. Leveling is nice, the story is more linear the it ever was (you go in zones in a known order, cannot choose what zone to do first), but for alts you got Threads of Fate (somewhat 1-2 hours slower leveling, but atleast you complete WQ, earn Renown as you level and so forth). For me, Threads of Fate was the best thing happening since I could not bare to repeat campaign stories once again, and it was about time some alternative was introduced for leveling ALTs.

If you like it or not, it is up to you to decide, but what is it with this "new and interesting ? What did WoW had in 16 years "new and interesting" ? Since this is the first time in WoW's life since we actual get a proper NEW, unpathed story, a mediocre one, like all WoW stories, but at least it is something fresh. We get a proper NEW PvP Gearing/Upgrading System. We get a proper Great Vault that rewards you with only 1 item, so that you will not be forced to do paths you don't want to.

As for the other "new and interesting" stuff, well, if you are looking for some other stuff other then raid/m+/pvp, then you must find it in another game or wait for patch 9.1, 9.2, 9.3 10.0 for something similar to previews Solo content in other xpacs. As I said before, keep in mind the "special" stuff that was added in WoW across time, it was limited time/patch content.
Chromie's Death, Mage Tower, Visions, Corruption System (BEAHH), Suramar scenario and so on. All those were needing little time per week (20-30mins max) and lasted 1 patch, or 1 week or so on.

And as for watching streamers, if you do the mistake to watch TOP mythic raiders or TOP WoW streamers only, you will probably make a false impression. Just as I did when I've watched Thorghast in beta for a couple of minutes.

If you count the reasons people are suggesting Shadowlands is a bad expansion, these are the ones:

1. loot drop is rare in M+ and raiding (if you consider TBC/WotLK the best expansions, you will not have any problems with how it works now. most complainers probably started playing WoW legion/bfa)
Sure, they could add a Badge vendor to ease people's pain. But even without that, it should not be a game ruining thing tbh, since it will ruin your game if you really play obsessively with you mind on LOOT LOOT LOOT GEAR.

2. there is too much TO DO in game (totally false, i've timed the weekly stuff you CAN DO + NEED TO DO in reset day, and it takes 4 hours/week. if you dont want to do thorgast then 2-3hours, depending on skill); (sure, there is couple of things you CAN DO if you WANT TO, but you are not forced to)

3. there is soo little to do in game (angain, if you need to be pushed in doing something, then yes, this xpac asks little from you, if you do the 3 renowns per week, you are kind of done with the content you HAVE TO DO; the rest is just content you CAN DO If you WANT TO)

4. the game is unrewarding (well, the optional stuff gives you mounts and cosmetics; the forced stuff gives you 3 renown (power and gearing ilvl); thorgast gives you your legendary; and the rest of the game is just as you know it from TBC/WotLK (raid/m+/pvp gives you gear).


If you like to be forced to do stuff, to grind infinitely all week, to cross paths just so you can do only 1 path (RAID/M+/PvP) then yeah, this game is not for you 100%.

If you like to choose what you want to do, and you like at least 1 of the following paths (RAID/M+/PvP) then this game is 100% for you.

[dacoolist]

I feel you bro, but I'm a stuborn sun of a bi7ch and this expansion I started with the ideea "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY".
That being said I've done JUST 4 Normal Dungeons, the quests that are giving at the end of each zone.
Never done 1 heroic dungeon, 1 mythic dungeon or lfr/normal/heroic raid.

I am ilvl 196 today and just hit 1600 cr yesterday after 2 weeks of struggling like hell between 1566 and 1250.
From a PvP player's PoV, yeah, I really wished that the ranges of ilvl were down a notch, and you had ilvl 213 at 1400, 220 at 1600 and 226 at 1800. BUT, that doesn't helps much since conquest gear is capped. Now I have weapon (bought it today after 3 weeks of conquest farm) and 3 other 213 items from weekly vault.
Being 1900cr in BFA didn't help much since it was hard as hell to hit the 1600 mark. I really hope to see some big changes in my gameplay, now with a weapon with 27ilvl more.

I fully agree the ilvl gap stuff is nuts! The two pvp trinks along with the extra vers DOES help a bit, but I did some games last night as an HPAL - the fast paced game play is NUTS. I've been gearing from M+ and vault so far, I can say this: the amount of burst in pvp is insane right now

[Tiradon]

Yeah it's great for me, I log in every day for the dailies and weekly for the 1-4 Mythics plus whatever weekly it is.

Besides that I have been doing raiding.

So far so good. I'm happy that I can focus on playing some other games and not becoming behind some other people.

[kamuimac]

Yeah it's great for me, I log in every day for the dailies and weekly for the 1-4 Mythics plus whatever weekly it is.

Besides that I have been doing raiding.

So far so good. I'm happy that I can focus on playing some other games and not becoming behind some other people.

ye ... because this is the goal of game devs - so that people would be happy that they can play other games not the game they developed

thanks for proving that SL is like WoD.

and who are the demographic whom SL is catered for - people who dont want to play WoW.

[Kel_Sceptic]

ye ... because this is the goal of game devs - so that people would be happy that they can play other games not the game they developed

thanks for proving that SL is like WoD.

and who are the demographic whom SL is catered for - people who dont want to play WoW.

Dude, find a game you enjoy playing, and play it. Stop being salty and frustrated when you see other people actually enjoy not being violated-forced to do content they don't want to do.

With /played 586 days, I take WoW as part of my life, not a game I want to finish, similar to any story driven game (Far Cry, Dragon Age, Mass Effect, Witcher 3 etc.).

If you want to go to the gym, or to the movies, you go 1-2 days per week, if you want to, or not at all, but you won't go forced, unless the leash is tight.

/played 11 days 2 hours since level 60 (thats 11 days played total since 27.11, from 35 days, 11 days are in GAME, I dunno if you can comprehend that) :/ yeah, sure, we don't want to play WoW )))))))))))) Jesus. It is the fact that when we will NOT HAVE the time we actually have now in hollydays, it will be ok, since we would not feel left behind like we did in BFA and Legion, that's all.

[Kel_Sceptic]

- Shadowlands: More of the same recipy of Legion + Thorgast. No class, no new race, divided small zones + Dungeons/raids. + super meh lore
Did i miss anything here?

Acutally this is it:
+ thorgast, love it or hate it, it is here to stay and will need 1-2h per week;
+ we don't have Artifact Power or Azerite Power therefor we don't have infinite grind, that is a BIG WIN for me;
+ we have PvP vendors, another equally BIG win;
+ we have a NEW PvP upgrading system that never existed, and it works wonderful. It might be ok if they increase the ilvl with 1 step, but still great system.
+ we got greater vault, a remake of the old pve+pvp chests, just made better; the fact that they are giving you ONLY 1 item, means no need to do M+ or Raiding if you are only into PvP;
+ a great, gated, renown system, fast, easy and never letting you feel that you are behind;
+ soulbinds and conduits, are actually fun and intersting, since you can choose if you wanna be more agressive or more defensive or whatever.
+ since you added "new models and shit", well we got redisigned caracter creation + changeable feral skins no matter the spec you are in (i wouldn't put this on the list if you would add so much " New models (awesome actually, i love it!) + nice transmog + Draenei/Orc lore + transmog + Mission table (meh)." just to make it look more important

- bad and long WQ, I'm doing them only for the Callings;
- ilvl difference between pve gear and pvp
- low rate drops out of M+ and raids (so people say, but I've seen enough players with ilvl 190 in the first 2 weeks of the game, that I dunno what to belive)
- gated covenant campaign
- soulbinds gated



Again I make comparations with games that are on-going from 1998 Counter-Strike and 2003 Dota, that are basicly the same gameplay since launch, and people still love them. I'm the same type of player that enjoys a new Diablo 3 season even after 5-6-7 years of D3's launch date, and enjoys doing Arenas.
Don't really care about lore, since lore doesn't exist in Arena. Hell, even Complexity's GL didn't knew who Bolvar was, calling him "the fire guy, is he an important piece in this expansion?".

But again, as I always said, if for YOU, there are more good things then bad, then it is an ok expansions; if there are more bad things then good ones, then it is a bad expansion. If the later is for you, then maybe there will be some improvements on 9.1 or 9.2 or 9.3 or 10 or even 11.

As for me, as a PVP ONLY player, PvP vendor + pvp gearing/upgrading system + no infinite grinding AP filled the positive bar to maybe 90%. At last Blizzard respects me as a human being and player, and lets me decide, with my own little head, what I want to play every day.

[caervek]

Yes it's good, just like every other expansion was, and like every other expansion it has positive points and negative points.

[Phasma]

It's good, but the game is old.

[Mojo03]

Let me resume the problem:
- BC: Blood elves & Draenei. Outlands + class sets + difficult dungeons/raids. Quests in the world. Awesome Lore
- WOTLK: Death Knights were awesome. The Lich King as an enemy to defeat. Awesome Lore. Super fun dungeons because of tabard rep, drops and awesome raids. Outside Battleground Wintergrasp + Interesting materials with lore to use, Example: Saronite, Titansteel, etc...
- CATA: PvP + Remake the old world (actually was good, since Vanilla quests were f ugly). + underwater zone (something new and actually boring)
- MOP: Pandaren + Monk class + Awesome and colorful world with interesting lore, mounts, raids, dungeons + Farm + Daily quests (they sucked but at least is something...) + Timeless Island (was fun actually) + Zandalari rares + Regular rares being a challenge + collectibles toys + transmog + awesome materials to farm like Ghost Iron, Kipari, Gems, etc....
- WOD: Garrison (was fun at first, then meh) + New models (awesome actually, i love it!) + nice transmog + Draenei/Orc lore + transmog + Mission table (meh).
- Legion: World Quests (fun at first, meh later) + Awesome lore + Demon Hunters + transmog + toys + toy collectible menu + new animations for classes + pvp areas + World bosses (since BC and WOD) + Awesome quests with tons of lore for both professions, classes and special items + legendaries + Class halls + Class mounts + New playable races like: Lightforge Draenei, Void elves, Shaldorei + Highmountain Tauren. + Class missions + secrets (quests that gives mounts, toys, etc.).

- BFA: The decay starts here and we got: New races (Dark Iron, Mag'har, Mechagnome, Zandalari, Kul tiras, Vulpera) + Most of the features of Legion but with a nerf bat like World Quests, raids and dungeons. + toys and mounts + 2 small zones Zandalar and Kul Tiras island (meh both of them). + Island Expedition (super meh from start to the end, only useful to level up alts). And thats all. + meh lore
- Shadowlands: More of the same recipy of Legion + Thorgast. No class, no new race, divided small zones + Dungeons/raids. + super meh lore

Did i miss anything here?

You lost me at “super fun dungeons” and “awesome raids” in wrath.

Not to mention listing the ores you get in wrath connected to lore as a perk of the expansion. Seriously?

You’re REALLY stretching the pros you want to looks like pros.