Sylvanas’ Culpability *spoilers*

[Berndorf]

Tyrande going to trial for killing Nathanos and being sentenced to death after Sylvanas is absolved of all guilt due to 'issues which made it hard for her to see she was doing wrong' is the only way this can end now. I hope I didn't just spoil it for everyone.

[Jastall]

Just remember, what ever guilt we assign to Sylvanas whilst under the sway of the Jailer, we will have to assign to Anduin whilst under the sway of the Jailer.

Can't be having double standards now can we.

That's nonsense. Sylvanas very clearly has free will and emotions of her own, as evidenced by many things this expansion alone but her turning on the Jailer is only the latest one. Anduin was turned from the absolute saint he is into an automaton that does whatever the Jailer wants. The cinematic where he wounds the Archon very clearly shows that he's not "influenced" or "has an imperfect soul" or whatever other excuse, he's being dominated and his body taken over.

[deenman]

Well then. Where do you live, approximately, so I can avoid that area?

You appear to be projecting pretty hard here. Just because you'd be willing to be a psycho doesn't mean others are. Also, this tangent is WILDLY off topic.

it was a hypothetical,i forgot to add the adequate preface,just imagine the worst scenario posible,your kids starving,the place you are is bombed or whatever,no other way to get food but by stealing,you actualy gonna tell me you wouldnt steal?

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Bruh, are you stuck living in the Stone Age or something?

you didnt bother to read the prior stuff i asume,anyways it was a hypothetical and i forgot to add the adequate preface to that scenario

[Varodoc]

it was a hypothetical,i forgot to add the adequate preface,just imagine the worst scenario posible,your kids starving,the place you are is bombed or whatever,no other way to get food but by stealing,you actualy gonna tell me you wouldnt steal?

And this correlates to Sylvanas' situation because...?

[deenman]

And this correlates to Sylvanas' situation because...?

i honestly have forgoten by this point (.-.)

[Varodoc]

i honestly have forgoten by this point

You're the one who brought up this example, are you saying that Sylvanas can be compared to a poor family man who has to steal just to feed his own children?

Because if anything that's not Sylvanas, that's literally any Night elf refugee in Stormwind. Thanks to Sylvanas.

[deenman]

You're the one who brought up this example, are you saying that Sylvanas can be compared to a poor family man who has to steal just to feed his own children?

Because if anything that's not Sylvanas, that's literally any Night elf refugee in Stormwind. Thanks to Sylvanas.

just click reply's until you get to idk,it was something about prison

[Varodoc]

just click reply's until you get to idk,it was something about prison

I take that as a No, that's all I wanted to hear, because comparing Sylvanas to a poor family man who has to steal to feed their children is, naturally, stupid

[Ivarr]

people who do crimes do them regardless of the possible consequences

Then why give them right to a public defendant? If the consequences don't matter to them we might as well save some taxpayer money on this.

[deenman]

Then why give them right to a public defendant? If the consequences don't matter to them we might as well save some taxpayer money on this.

innocent until proven guilty?

[Ivarr]

innocent until proven guilty?

When the verdict is in they're no longer innocent. In that same logic we can also apply capital punishment to every crime and save ourselves the cost of prison. It's not going to change the crimes people are committing but it can allow drastic budget cuts.

[deenman]

When the verdict is in they're no longer innocent. In that same logic we can also apply capital punishment to every crime and save ourselves the cost of prison. It's not going to change the crimes people are committing but it can allow drastic budget cuts.

capital punishment unless im mistaken is usualy way more expensive than life in prison,also...i said this before,the innocence program has proven thausands of death row inmates to be innocent,places like usa has murdered thausands of innocent people,who knows how many more died in other countries where this foundation doesnt exist

[Varodoc]

Started about “should Sylvanas be punished” and got into “why do we punish?”… at which point @deenman asserted that punishments aren’t designed to be a deterrent. That’s where the tangent took off.

And we needed 18 pages to determine if someone who committed genocide should be punished or not? Okay.

[Ivarr]

capital punishment unless im mistaken is usualy way more expensive than life in prison,also...i said this before,the innocence program has proven thausands of death row inmates to be innocent,places like usa has murdered thausands of innocent people,who knows how many more died in other countries where this foundation doesnt exist

It's the appeals that make capital punishment more expensive. And after someone is convicted, they're guilty until proven innocent.

[deenman]

And we needed 18 pages to determine if someone who committed genocide should be punished or not? Okay.

it wasnt about sylvanas,it was about irl stuff

[AcidicSyn]

If that same someone caused the deaths of tens of thousands of innocents - mental health issues or not - I would want them to be given the death sentence.

Being mentally ill does not pardon you from committing crimes on that kind of scale.

pretty much this, and I say this as a sylv fan.

We could understand why she did what she did, sure. That does not exonerate her though.

Like OP said, she still had her free will. It's very similar to Arthas really, which is sort of poetic I guess? Still, didn't stop us from killing him.

[Feanoro]

it wasnt about sylvanas,it was about irl stuff

Politics forum is that way.

[Ersula]

The fact that he hadn't done anything yet, for one.

If he then started acting not unlike Sylvanas, ex.: poisoning innocents to test a genocide plague, starting and maintaining a war that has no hope of victory just to cause as many losses as possible...

Then yes, he shouldn't be let loose after that. The fact remains that the potential for them to act in that way exists, even if they've been """redeemed""" by the plot. Nobody can confirm that, nor know for sure that the return of her soul really changed anything - Thus, she cannot be "let loose." The possibility of her still wanting to cause all the problems she had previously caused still exists, and cannot be ignored.

From the sylvanas novel press release:

But as her moment of victory draws near, Sylvanas Windrunner will make a choice that may ultimately come to define her. A choice that’s hers alone to make.

This makes me think, well she didn't have her soul, so how she responsible for anything she did? If she's incapable of making altruistic decisions how is she responsible for not making those choices? Her choices stop being choices. And if not, what's the significance of having or not having all of her soul? If you have no conscience anyone would behave just as badly.

But as always, Blizzard will try to have it both ways. She is both perpetually guilty & innocent because that's how you appease everyone. Everyone except people who like good writing.

The point of the story is for other characters to forgive her. As a Sylvanas stan I'll have to be happy with that, even though this story means i've effectively never known the real sylvanas because she gets killed by frostmorne in her first appearance in the franchise. But at least it's still better writing than what happened to Cersei & Daenerys in game of thrones

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Then yes, he shouldn't be let loose after that. The fact remains that the potential for them to act in that way exists, even if they've been """redeemed""" by the plot. Nobody can confirm that, nor know for sure that the return of her soul really changed anything - Thus, she cannot be "let loose." The possibility of her still wanting to cause all the problems she had previously caused still exists, and cannot be ignored.

(Other than reminding you that Sylvanas was basically winning the entirety of BFA until Saurfang decided to defect) That huge explosion during the Saurfang fight, and Anduin being able to fight Jaina, Thrall & Bolvar solo, clearly illustrates they are getting boosts of anima power from the Jailer, like the Primus does to the player in the scenario where we free him. This extra power Sylvanas had is likely gone now that the Jailer has abandoned her.

[Arrashi]

Sylvanas is just like Griffith - she did nothing wrong. Also archives burned in teldrassil - you have nothing on her.

[sighy]

Yeah dude Sylvanas was mind-controlled by the Jailer this whole time, that's why in her INTERNAL MONOLOGUE she THOUGHT how she despised that Vol'jin made her Warchief, even though it was all part of the Jailer's plan. And in her INTERNAL MONOLOGUE she also THOUGHT she would create peace by separating the two factions in two different continents, which you know is contradictory of the entire Jailer's plan.

Such brilliant mind manipulation from the Jailer, much wow.

Almost as if she was originally written with genuine motivations and reasoning, which later got retconned into dumb shlock and is getting retconned the other way now, because they went too far the last time. (To top that off, in order to get her into her starting position in SL she had to act multiple times hard out of character, which the author(s) tried to explain away with a series of retcons straight out of their ass)


Seriously thiss stuff makes The Last of Us 2 look competently written.