How should the Alliance story have been handled and advanced ?

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

How do you think that the Alliance story, both inside and in the overall plot, should have been written and handled since the beggining of WoW ? What role and evolution should the organisation have received through the expansions and books ? And what role and evolution for its member races, including the ones that have been often ignored or neglected such as the dwarves, the gnomes, worgens, draenei or Tushui pandarens ?

What issues and problems should the Alliance have really faced, and which ones should have been resolved already ?

[shoc]

Should have stopped telling 'big stories' about the Alliance as a whole and focused on smaller scale conflicts and resolutions that pertained to just one group and the complicated issues within them.

Suramar was a perfect example of this kind of storytelling, they set a great stage and acted a great play. WoW does such good worldbuilding when they aren't focusing on the cosmic ontologies of the Warcraft universe.

A story campaign involving Dwarven politics in light of a future boy-emperor of all Dwarves coming up, or a Gnome campaign grappling with posthuman philosophical implications of becoming mechanized. We could get different points of view from everyone from Mimiron to the citizens of Mechagon. Humans coming to terms with Turalyon laying a foundation for a theocratic dictatorship of the Light, based on real-world issues pertaining to fundamentalist conservative radicalization of a society - one that involves the Draenei and Lightborne too. Night Elves, grappling with an ideological divide between naturalistic xenophobia and those that wish the Night Elves to be active global participants in the empire game.

[Venziir]

Should have stopped telling 'big stories' about the Alliance as a whole and focused on smaller scale conflicts and resolutions that pertained to just one group and the complicated issues within them.

Suramar was a perfect example of this kind of storytelling, they set a great stage and acted a great play. WoW does such good worldbuilding when they aren't focusing on the cosmic ontologies of the Warcraft universe.

A story campaign involving Dwarven politics in light of a future boy-emperor of all Dwarves coming up, or a Gnome campaign grappling with posthuman philosophical implications of becoming mechanized. We could get different points of view from everyone from Mimiron to the citizens of Mechagon. Humans coming to terms with Turalyon laying a foundation for a theocratic dictatorship of the Light, based on real-world issues pertaining to fundamentalist conservative radicalization of a society - one that involves the Draenei and Lightborne too. Night Elves, grappling with an ideological divide between naturalistic xenophobia and those that wish the Night Elves to be active global participants in the empire game.

Well, the core of the Suramar plotline was the Legion which is quite the cosmic threat.

[DatToffer]

Wow where to start... Oh I know.

I think they shouldn't have shoved Varian down our throat like they did. And surely not have him become a High King, which was just a cheap Warchief equivalent.

Therefore, most of the character development he was given should have benefited others. Instead of having him teaching a lesson in patience to Tyrande, he should have been the one to learn for a multimillenial warrior. Instead of him being the chosen avatar whatever of Goldrinn, it should have been Genn.

I feel like we should have taken more actions against the House of the Nobles ingame. I really like killing off rich assholes.

They shouldn't have killed off the last princes of humanity, like the prince of Gilneas or the one of Arathi.

An actual focus on retaking Gilneas and Gnomeregan would have been nice.

More dark iron involved in Cataclysm storylines would have been nice too. Especially in places like Grim Batol or against the Twilight Hammer.

The Night elves boosted by the magic of the night warrior was cool, but it would have been more believable if that boost brought them to a level superior to their warcraft 3 self.

The bonds between the night elves and worgen, the difficulties of the Three Hammer Council... I think those things shouldn't have been relegated to books.

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Wow where to start... Oh I know.

I think they shouldn't have shoved Varian down our throat like they did. And surely not have him become a High King, which was just a cheap Warchief equivalent.

Therefore, most of the character development he was given should have benefited others. Instead of having him teaching a lesson in patience to Tyrande, he should have been the one to learn for a multimillenial warrior. Instead of him being the chosen avatar whatever of Goldrinn, it should have been Genn.

I feel like we should have taken more actions against the House of the Nobles ingame. I really like killing off rich assholes.

They shouldn't have killed off the last princes of humanity, like the prince of Gilneas or the one of Arathi.

An actual focus on retaking Gilneas and Gnomeregan would have been nice.

More dark iron involved in Cataclysm storylines would have been nice too. Especially in places like Grim Batol or against the Twilight Hammer.

The Night elves boosted by the magic of the night warrior was cool, but it would have been more believable if that boost brought them to a level superior to their warcraft 3 self.

The bonds between the night elves and worgen, the difficulties of the Three Hammer Council... I think those things shouldn't have been relegated to books.

I agree with you on many points. One of the major points of the Alliance is that it's really an alliance of nation and races, they aren't put under the same laws and commands except when they agree to cooperate in the military field, and they aren't forced to obey their allies and can make their own decisions.

It's also why it was decided during the Second War that the Supreme Commander of Alliance forces wouldn't be one of the kings or rulers, so one nation or race couldn't be superior to the others and that there wouldn't a Warchief to rule everything unlike the Horde. This is why the creation of the High King title was an error, and Anduin being named with this title an even greater one.

And as you said the notion of Varian teaching lessons about patience to Tyrande who's over 10 000 years, and was perfectly able of waiting centuries or even millenias for Malfurion before his returns and before finally marrying him, was just preposperous.

Indeed Gilneas and Gnomeregan should have been reclaimed by their people a long time ago, with both of their inhabitants being among the most neglected races in WoW, just as some other races such as the dwarves or regions such as Westfall or Azuremyst Isles, and the Arathi Highlands until BFA, are terribly forgotten and neglected.

And the facts that we saw so little interactions between many races such as between the Night Elves and Draenei for example, or Gnomes and Draenei, Night Elves and Wildhammer Dwarves, or between Dwarves and Worgens is quite frustrating.

- - - Updated - - -

Not counting the lack of internal politics such as between the king of Stormwind and the House of Nobles, the dilemna of the fair representation of Wildhammer and Dark Irons in Ironforge Senate and institutions, of the Gnomes having an institution to name one of them High Tinker which means that he or she can't be the only one governing the gnomes, of the rulers having councils and advisors to advise them, of political differences and tensions between the racial leaders, etc..

[Soon-TM]

The Alliance (the old one, at least) was supposed to be this really powerful military bloc, but with the downside of being constantly muddled in its internal political struggles, e.g. High Elves being opportunistic, aloof pieces of #$&@ who joined out of sheer necessity, and effectively left as soon as their collective ass was put out of the fire. Or Genn throwing a tantrum and leaving because his hard-line approach towards Orc PoWs was not shared by his colleague from Lordaeron.

Or the whole Dwarven civil war, that was promptly solved when the Anime King started bossing everyone around, with everyone else meekly nodding because the guy "was right".

Even as late as Vanilla, you had this power struggle in Darnassus between Fandral and Tyrande, which was later resolved in the most mundane way you can imagine, oh well... Speaking of which, there is no reason for nelfs to remain in the Alliance at this point. You could have nelfs as a nation withdrawing canonically from the Alliance, with the nelf PC being a dissident who has decided to embrace Human Potential™.

The thing is that, while some Alliance fans may like the current depiction of Blue Team as a bunch of unassailable saints, who never do anything wrong (and if they ever do, it hardly matters since the narrative just ignores it) and never have any internal disagreements because they are led by the best thing in Azeroth since Freshly Baked Bread, it is simply terrible storytelling, that makes for a terrible narrative - it locks the Alliance into a perpetually passive role, with the occasional dick move in the meantime to make them 'interesting' (and failing miserably, of course). After all, why would they ever do anything if everything is OK?

[DatToffer]

Wrong topic, I'm dumb !

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

The Alliance (the old one, at least) was supposed to be this really powerful military bloc, but with the downside of being constantly muddled in its internal political struggles, e.g. High Elves being opportunistic, aloof pieces of #$&@ who joined out of sheer necessity, and effectively left as soon as their collective ass was put out of the fire. Or Genn throwing a tantrum and leaving because his hard-line approach towards Orc PoWs was not shared by his colleague from Lordaeron.

Or the whole Dwarven civil war, that was promptly solved when the Anime King started bossing everyone around, with everyone else meekly nodding because the guy "was right".

Even as late as Vanilla, you had this power struggle in Darnassus between Fandral and Tyrande, which was later resolved in the most mundane way you can imagine, oh well... Speaking of which, there is no reason for nelfs to remain in the Alliance at this point. You could have nelfs as a nation withdrawing canonically from the Alliance, with the nelf PC being a dissident who has decided to embrace Human Potential™.

The thing is that, while some Alliance fans may like the current depiction of Blue Team as a bunch of unassailable saints, who never do anything wrong (and if they ever do, it hardly matters since the narrative just ignores it) and never have any internal disagreements because they are led by the best thing in Azeroth since Freshly Baked Bread, it is simply terrible storytelling, that makes for a terrible narrative - it locks the Alliance into a perpetually passive role, with the occasional dick move in the meantime to make them 'interesting' (and failing miserably, of course). After all, why would they ever do anything if everything is OK?

Speaking of dwarven civil war and Varian, I always have found it glaring that Wildhammer accepted to rejoin their cousins and to become Dagran's future subjects too all because of Varian's council idea. Realistically it would have recquired at least one arranged marriage pact between Dagran and Kurdran or Falstad's daughters and several concessions to convince them to return to IF and accept the council of the three hammers.

[Eggroll]

Night Elves, grappling with an ideological divide between naturalistic xenophobia and those that wish the Night Elves to be active global participants in the empire game.

Night elves are not xenophobic.... they are reclusive and elusive. And of course they are snobby, like all elves are.

[Magnagarde]

The old storytellers of Blizzard knew how to tell a good Alliance story; from the First and Second War, to the fall of Lordaeron, the Scourge, the inner turmoil within Stormwind's borders, the conflict between the various dwarven clans and much, much more. It takes an understanding of fictional universes and passion that I do not see existing nowadays. The original writers were heavily inspired by other, amazing work of fiction and they didn't hide it. The current ones are inspired by Marvel.

One of the reasons I don't want them to touch factions anymore is because they've shown to be completely incompetent in telling a compelling faction-based story. The way they're writing is to make sure that everything is as ambiguous as possible(ie light is bad too, void can be good). There was a healthy dose of ambiguity when WoW kicked off already, showing that nothing is exclusively and inheretly good or bad, but we've reached a point where it all simply doesn't matter anymore. If they wish to be ambiguous, then they need to allow players to make meaningful choices in terms of the story and allegiances. They could come up with a druid dreadlord who heals with fire magic and it would make just as much sense as everything else. There is no consistency, ideological connection and/or adventurism in anything and there is absolutely nothing that a fan of the franchise can feel an attachment to.

[Rozz]

Night elves are not xenophobic.... they are reclusive and elusive. And of course they are snobby, like all elves are.

Tbf that's because the ones that were are dead...(Fandral Staghelm)
Kinda like all the bad humans.

[Soon-TM]

The old storytellers of Blizzard knew how to tell a good Alliance story; from the First and Second War, to the fall of Lordaeron, the Scourge, the inner turmoil within Stormwind's borders, the conflict between the various dwarven clans and much, much more. It takes an understanding of fictional universes and passion that I do not see existing nowadays. The original writers were heavily inspired by other, amazing work of fiction and they didn't hide it. The current ones are inspired by Marvel.

One of the reasons I don't want them to touch factions anymore is because they've shown to be completely incompetent in telling a compelling faction-based story. The way they're writing is to make sure that everything is as ambiguous as possible (ie light is bad too, void can be good). There was a healthy dose of ambiguity when WoW kicked off already, showing that nothing is exclusively and inheretly good or bad, but we've reached a point where it all simply doesn't matter anymore. If they wish to be ambiguous, then they need to allow players to make meaningful choices in terms of the story and allegiances. They could come up with a druid dreadlord who heals with fire magic and it would make just as much sense as everything else. There is no consistency, ideological connection and/or adventurism in anything and there is absolutely nothing that a fan of the franchise can feel an attachment to.

While I overall agree with your post, the narrative of BfA (and by extension a sizeable chunk of SL's) had nothing ambiguous in it. The Horde was 100% bad and it was led by a girl who was 200% bad, the Alliance was 100% good and it was led by a guy who was 200% good. As a matter of fact, everything in the Alliance was so good that the only way for the Horde to become "good" was to adopt the political model of its enemy of yesteryear. That's why the Horde getting out of this "4th war" practically scot-free makes such little sense, ditto with the ongoing redemption story for Sylv.

And while we're busy with the SL story, there is nothing "nuanced" or "ambiguous" about it. For instance, the Archon is depicted as being 100% right (to the point that the "reform" she undertakes is because she's a real swell fellow, not because her loyalists were chucking people into the Maw 24/7 because ThE PuRPoSe) and the Forsworn are 100% evil/wrong. Same in Revendreth with Renathal and Denathrius respectively, or with Draka/Vyraz in Maldraxxus. As for the NF, you just don't get any more goody goody than the WQ, while her enemies (the Drust) are just generic baddies.

Even the Blue Man is a caricature of a baddie, with the most bland, generic Saturday morning cartoon villain lines you can think of. For all the parallels that some people have drawn between him and Thanos, the latter at least has a point, and you can even sympathise with him to an extent. But the janitor...? ZzzZZzzZz

[Feanoro]

For starters, since TBC onwards, by having an Alliance story that wasn't just waiting for the Horde's latest rampage and massacre because they ran out of ice cream sprinkles.

[Magnagarde]

While I overall agree with your post, the narrative of BfA (and by extension a sizeable chunk of SL's) had nothing ambiguous in it. The Horde was 100% bad and it was led by a girl who was 200% bad, the Alliance was 100% good and it was led by a guy who was 200% good. As a matter of fact, everything in the Alliance was so good that the only way for the Horde to become "good" was to adopt the political model of its enemy of yesteryear. That's why the Horde getting out of this "4th war" practically scot-free makes such little sense, ditto with the ongoing redemption story for Sylv.

And while we're busy with the SL story, there is nothing "nuanced" or "ambiguous" about it. For instance, the Archon is depicted as being 100% right (to the point that the "reform" she undertakes is because she's a real swell fellow, not because her loyalists were chucking people into the Maw 24/7 because ThE PuRPoSe) and the Forsworn are 100% evil/wrong. Same in Revendreth with Renathal and Denathrius respectively, or with Draka/Vyraz in Maldraxxus. As for the NF, you just don't get any more goody goody than the WQ, while her enemies (the Drust) are just generic baddies.

Even the Blue Man is a caricature of a baddie, with the most bland, generic Saturday morning cartoon villain lines you can think of. For all the parallels that some people have drawn between him and Thanos, the latter at least has a point, and you can even sympathise with him to an extent. But the janitor...? ZzzZZzzZz

Oh, I definitely agree with your assessment of factions and characters. Perhaps I should've explained my point a bit better, but ambiguity seems to be the goal they're reaching for in the end; I do think they're very unsuccesful at it. That is the conclusion they, the writers, are trying to convey, even though everything they've written leading up to it clearly works against it. That is the reason why it all makes no sense; it feels like they're trying to make a vegan dish by using meat as the only ingredient.

Anything that they have envisioned for the Alliance in the future will more than likely be conditioned by the aforementioned standards. Uncharacteristic stunts by leading characters are parts of the package.

[Zaelsino]

Varian had it right in MoP.



But expectations were subverted when the chucklefucks behind BfA gave us another evil warchief, starting another faction war with another war crime.

[Myradin]

Blue Warchief was a bad idea. The idea of the various subfactions clashing and learning from eachother should be part of the fun of being on the alliance.

Then, when Varian died, we had the opportunity to be rid of blue warchief, and while I like Anduin, he shouldn't have just somehow inherited the title. At the very least, it shouldn't have gotten full support from the other leaders, many of whom are older than humans can possibly ever be. If they were to keep it, it'd have been interesting to make a dwarf or even Genn have the position. Someone who would bring the fight to the horde, and escalate things into BFA, and maybe have its own pro-peace faction clash with them.


Internal clashes make things interesting, makes the alliance story not 100% reliant on the horde, and helps create scenarios for the alliance to do bad things without the whole faction looking bad (see how the forsaken got away doin bad stuff in the Thrall days without the horde looking 100% evil). It also helps make the alliance not look pants on head stupid when they get caught off guard. Because the alliance becomes this monolithic good entity, where everything remotely shadey is swept under the rug or immediately killed, it also makes the horde look universally bad for daring to attack them.

[OwenBurton]

How do you think that the Alliance story, both inside and in the overall plot, should have been written and handled since the beggining of WoW ? What role and evolution should the organisation have received through the expansions and books ? And what role and evolution for its member races, including the ones that have been often ignored or neglected such as the dwarves, the gnomes, worgens, draenei or Tushui pandarens ?

What issues and problems should the Alliance have really faced, and which ones should have been resolved already ?

The entire story should be re-evaluated. Ever since I saw that...ending cinematic, my interest in the storyline overall has diminished considerably, to put it very mildly. Shadowlands is honestly arguably even less popular than the previous expansion, which at least began on an interesting note. Anduin's current fate is of very little interest to me, unfortunately, he is just not that engaging.

I think there should be a story / novel involving all the races. The Shadows Rising novel for example, barely touched on how the other races / leaders reacted to the armistice, the end of the Fourth War, and how the common citizen feels about the Burning of Teldrassil, the Horde as a whole, and the conflict ending.

For example, were Ironforge and the dwarves attacked during the conflict, and is Gnomeregan still unreclaimed? Why was the Exodar ignored during the Fourth War completely - with not even a single draenei present at Darkshore? Why was the Vindicaar also totally ignored? Why did Vereesa appear only at the end of the conflict, without a single word? Are Aysa and Ji Firepaw on friendly terms now? Are Mount Hyjal, Moonglade and Ashenvale Alliance territories, or are they still neutral and contested? Is Dalaran still part of the Alliance? Were the Broken Isles completely unaffected? Why was the Silver Hand the only Class Order which splintered? What is Calia and Derek's current relationship to Jaina, and does Turalyon still respect Calia as the heir to his homeland Lordaeron?

Why didn't the Horde try to attack Stormwind or the other Alliance territories - even as the Alliance (even with the night elves nearly extinct) still rampaged throughout Kalimdor and wreaked havoc in the orc and tauren lands? Why was Silvermoon and Quel'Thalas never attacked during the conflict - is their Sunwell shield magically restored at this point, perhaps?

I mean, for such a massive conflict, everything kind of ended with a soft whimper, and both sides shrugging and walking away like nothing too serious happened, not the bang that everyone expected. And there are just so many loose ends. We're not even sure how many deaths were inflicted as a result of Teldrassil, let alone the resulting conflict, or why all the leaders accepted the armistice very quickly, everything is just so vague and unclear for both sides.

[Eggroll]

Tbf that's because the ones that were are dead...(Fandral Staghelm)
Kinda like all the bad humans.

Exactly. Or like Aszhara. But the current night elves are the ones who fought Aszhara, so...

[Terrorthatflapsinthenight]

Tbf that's because the ones that were are dead...(Fandral Staghelm)
Kinda like all the bad humans.

Honnestly while Fandral Staghelm was a jerkass,I would have preferred if he remained a political and ideological opponent to Malfurion and Tyrande, and that while remaining loyal to his people and eventually a bit more tolerant of other Alliance races and of the Highborne, while still being far more aggressive and ruthless than Tyrande and Malfurion and willing to use ruthless methods to protect his people and nature such as still creating the druids of the flames but as a mean to cleanse and destroy corrupted or rotten things so nature can grow back just like after fires and volcanic eruptions and similar to the Red Dragons' fire.

[Rozz]

Honnestly while Fandral Staghelm was a jerkass,I would have preferred if he remained a political and ideological opponent to Malfurion and Tyrande, and that while remaining loyal to his people and eventually a bit more tolerant of other Alliance races and of the Highborne, while still being far more aggressive and ruthless than Tyrande and Malfurion and willing to use ruthless methods to protect his people and nature such as still creating the druids of the flames but as a mean to cleanse and destroy corrupted or rotten things so nature can grow back just like after fires and volcanic eruptions and similar to the Red Dragons' fire.

I kinda think it's funny how the flame druids probably could have done something about the tree being on fire(or saved way more people due to their resistances).

And I agree, I would have preferred if he stayed on. Characters like him balance others that are good to a fault. I'm not intending to incurring forbidden topics, but I don't agree with the current writers trying to wipe away any form of discord that compares to rl issues (ex: prejudice, extreme war crimes(assault, breeding, etc)). It actually makes any narrative relating to them really hollow, when there is no true opposition to begin with.

Ex: Claiming harsh racism towards half races, but showing extreme indifference or normalcy in the game. That doesn't make sense when you don't have people like Garithos. I get that they remove or lighten these elements because people play to escape problems, but it hurts the story. Having bad people and strife is necessary for a conflict to be believable.