M+ needs back Titanforging

[Lathspell]

Blizzard is already offering people a way to actually get better reward - it's just doing harder content.

And there's already a similar way to gear up with grinding - it's Korthia. It's not the highest, but it's almost HC ilvl(233), which is more than fine for doing such a boring, repeatable thing. LFR/low M+ don't deserve mythic/+15 ilvl gear.

It should be: Effort = reward.

I remember when someone wrote on official forum something like:
-You earn money go to McDonalds and buy 6 Chicken Nuggets,
-Some other guy also buys 6 Chicken Nuggets, but it's McTitanForge and he gets bonus nuggets and fries,
Suddenly you're not feeling that your efforts have not been sufficiently rewarded

Think of it more like a salary gap. If you work long enough on a low salary you can buy item X, but if you work 1/10 on a higher salary you can buy item X much sooner, and items Y, Z and P too before the low salary worker (LFR/low m+) even gets his first X. You are both rewarded, but the higher salary person is just rewarded a lot more.

[Malania]

The last thing this game needs is more loot scaling. I'd much prefer reforging again.

[Eazy]

Think of it more like a salary gap. If you work long enough on a low salary you can buy item X, but if you work 1/10 on a higher salary you can buy item X much sooner, and items Y, Z and P too before the low salary worker (LFR/low m+) even gets his first X. You are both rewarded, but the higher salary person is just rewarded a lot more.

Okay. I agree. But up to the HC ilvl and with like a few weeks of grind.

Mythic should be only obtainable in mythic though.

[rrayy]

The point is to have a reason to keep playing even at the LFR/+2 level. Right now it's completely pointless and lacking any sort of progress route. If someone has 259 6 months from now grinding every day in a low difficulty setting and you have it right now why would you care?

Because they don;t want ANYONE on LFR possibly getting it. It's called "special snowflake syndrome". They want to feel superior.

[Lathspell]

Okay. I agree. But up to the HC ilvl and with like a few weeks of grind.

Mythic should be only obtainable in mythic though.

Even that would be a major improvement and give reasons to play more whatever your skill/comfort level.

[rrayy]

If someone want to keep playing then he should try harder content instead of LFR/low M+. It's that simple.

I'd care because I am not putting effort in learning my own class, reading bosses guide, cooperating with other people/guild to have the same reward as someone who's just mindlessy grinding LFR.
That would be highly unfair.

Dude you are getting it in like 2 to 3 weeks. It would take you 8 months minimum in LFR to come even close. This is so ridiculously elitist. It wouldn't make you any lesser of a player and it is in no way unfair when what you can do in a couple of weeks takes 50 times as long to do in LFR..

[Eazy]

Dude you are getting it in like 2 to 3 weeks.

Lmao. Not really.

It would take you 8 months minimum in LFR to come even close. This is so ridiculously elitist. It wouldn't make you any lesser of a player and it is in no way unfair when what you can do in a couple of weeks takes 50 times as long to do in LFR..

Even if they waste 24 months in LFR - they still do not deserve mythic ilvl items.
You can call it whatever - elitists, toxic etc. But it fact it's fair and square. People who aren't putting any effort in the game shouldn't get the highest reward possible.
Grinding =! effort(playing smarter).

There was a time where people who were getting maximum ilvl trinket from LFR bosses, while others didn't even get them once in a few weeks(some even months).

Of course it wouldn't change that drastically, but the ilvl requirements will be much higher with less skilled people in LFG. The current system is fine as it is(maybe the drop chances are kinda low, but still).

As I wrote above - no LFR player should be able to get 252 ilvl. And saying that they should just shows that people wants free items, it's not casino welfare. If you want a reward - you should put some effort to get it. We've already got the Korthia/TW/Dungeon weekly quests for the catch-ups.

[slime]

It has become quite clear that raiders are the problem with WoW. Raiders (in WoW) are degenerates.

[rrayy]

Lmao. Not really.



Even if they waste 24 months in LFR - they still do not deserve mythic ilvl items.
You can call it whatever - elitists, toxic etc. But it fact it's fair and square. People who aren't putting any effort in the game shouldn't get the highest reward possible.
Grinding =! effort(playing smarter).

There was a time where people who were getting maximum ilvl trinket from LFR bosses, while others didn't even get them once in a few weeks(some even months).

Of course it wouldn't change that drastically, but the ilvl requirements will be much higher with less skilled people in LFG. The current system is fine as it is(maybe the drop chances are kinda low, but still).

As I wrote above - no LFR player should be able to get 252 ilvl. And saying that they should just shows that people wants free items, it's not casino welfare. If you want a reward - you should put some effort to get it. We've already got the Korthia/TW/Dungeon weekly quests for the catch-ups.

YOu will have a full set in one tenth the time it would take an LFR to get a full set with titanforging at a minimum and that is with extremme luck. Far more likely that aan LFR with titanforging will nver get a full set. There is nothing unfair about it and yes it is elitist. WHy? Because you use the terms "casino welfare" and demean people because you want to feel superior. There is absolutely zero wrong with an LFR player to get one piece of mythc gear by luck in LFR. It has no impact on you whatsoever.

[Azerate]

WF/TF is the best example of a good system that was deleted due to whining of the vocal minority.

You could run whatever type of content at whatever level and always have a small chance of receiving a lucky ilvl upgrade. There is literally no harm in that at all, considering it was fairly rare. You could not realistically target WF/TFed items, it was just a small potential bonus, a nice little lucky thing that could happen to you.

The only people who got "hurt" by this system are nutjobs who need "ultimate bis" items equipped in all slots who felt compelled to grind for every single maxed out titanforge. These people just shouldn't be catered to, and wf/tf should come back for the good of the majority. Oh, and bonus rolls as well. Same story.

[Empower]

WF/TF is the best example of a good system that was deleted due to whining of the vocal minority.

You could run whatever type of content at whatever level and always have a small chance of receiving a lucky ilvl upgrade. There is literally no harm in that at all, considering it was fairly rare. You could not realistically target WF/TFed items, it was just a small potential bonus, a nice little lucky thing that could happen to you.

The only people who got "hurt" by this system are nutjobs who need "ultimate bis" items equipped in all slots who felt compelled to grind for every single maxed out titanforge. These people just shouldn't be catered to, and wf/tf should come back for the good of the majority. Oh, and bonus rolls as well. Same story.

I mean it utterly destroyed community trust as you had zero idea what anyone could do and effectively birthed raider io...

Worse it over geared players for content they should be doing skill wise and encouraged them to enter content they were in no way prepared for because of no upgrades being left at skill appropriate level causing further frustration and discord...

Beyond that though yeah no harm at all.

- - - Updated - - -

YOu will have a full set in one tenth the time it would take an LFR to get a full set with titanforging at a minimum and that is with extremme luck. Far more likely that aan LFR with titanforging will nver get a full set. There is nothing unfair about it and yes it is elitist. WHy? Because you use the terms "casino welfare" and demean people because you want to feel superior. There is absolutely zero wrong with an LFR player to get one piece of mythc gear by luck in LFR. It has no impact on you whatsoever.

Until that players moves beyond that into content they are both utterly unprepared for while at the same time vaste over gear...

[Tyris Flare]

I mean it utterly destroyed community trust as you had zero idea what anyone could do and effectively birthed raider io...

Worse it over geared players for content they should be doing skill wise and encouraged them to enter content they were in no way prepared for because of no upgrades being left at skill appropriate level causing further frustration and discord...

Beyond that though yeah no harm at all..

It didn't do this, tho. IO would have come about anyway. There's no titanforging now and ilvl still means absolutely nothing. The game was already on the path to credentialism.

The point about being overgeared is weird because that's the fundamental way content is nerfed in this game. All this slow renown prog or AP prog or corruption prog or whatever is an intentional way to nerf content overtime and that is a Very Good Thing imo. I think there's a decent argument to be made that gear should matter even more than it does so that a wr 1000 guild who gets to the last boss is fighting a dramatically different encounter than wr 10 or whatever. Its the only way to build a game that has world first race but is also accessible to normies.

Also getting gear is fun and it's basically the whole point of the game.

[Azerate]

I mean it utterly destroyed community trust as you had zero idea what anyone could do and effectively birthed raider io...

Worse it over geared players for content they should be doing skill wise and encouraged them to enter content they were in no way prepared for because of no upgrades being left at skill appropriate level causing further frustration and discord...

Beyond that though yeah no harm at all.

- - - Updated - - -



Until that players moves beyond that into content they are both utterly unprepared for while at the same time vaste over gear...

Sorry, but that's just BS.

This game had masses of people with high level gear who where really bad at it for ages. There were always lots of decently progressed guilds who were carrying a number of individuals who weren't pulling their weight. It has absolutely nothing to do with wf/tf. Especially since wf/tf could not realistically increase your ilvl significantly. There is a group of people who like to perpetuate the lie that wf/tf supposedly allowed LFR raiders to get geared in full mythic ilvl. This is obviously false since getting that kind of TF effect on an item was incredibly rare. A person that raids lfr would get 1 max ilvl item over the course of the tier, maybe 2-3 if extremely lucky. Pretending as if tf made lfr players bis geared is just disingenuous.

[Eazy]

YOu will have a full set in one tenth the time it would take an LFR to get a full set with titanforging at a minimum and that is with extremme luck.

That's true. But it wasn't like that exactly. You could get almost HC gear in a few weeks(with other content, such as random legendaries for example).
It's RNG after all.

Far more likely that aan LFR with titanforging will nver get a full set.

Sure and I agree.

There is nothing unfair about it and yes it is elitist. WHy? Because you use the terms "casino welfare" and demean people because you want to feel superior.

If being fair and demanding justice is called elitism, then sure, call me one.

I just believe that people who put effort should receive more and better. It's that simple.
It's MMO after all, for me all the content where you are automatically joining other people shouldn't give any reward at all.

There is absolutely zero wrong with an LFR player to get one piece of mythc gear by luck in LFR. It has no impact on you whatsoever.

There is few of reasons why they shouldn't:
-it will cause a faster burn-out for MYTHIC players, they will do every content possible for a small chance of getting an upgrade,
-the ilvl requirement will be HIGHER in LFG for the content it shouldn't, right now for the heroic raiding you can see >240ilvl groups which is ridiculous high, more people getting higher ilvls = higher ilvl requirement for the content, DO NOT tell me that didn't happen in the previous expansion where WF/TF were implemented, because that happened and there was an outrage because of it,
-mythic players would feel that the game isn't rewarding enough, because why some LFR guy gets an item they were farming for a few weeks?

It would cause more harm than good. No LFR player deserve mythic ilvl item.

Effort = reward. If someone don't want to work for their prize, they simply do not deserve it. There is nothing fairer than this and that's a fact.

There's no titanforging now and ilvl still means absolutely nothing.

That's a false.
Higher ilvl people have higher probability of doing better content and having more experience.

Also getting gear is fun and it's basically the whole point of the game.

Yes. There are harder content for better reward, just as it should be. If someone needs better reward, then he should put some effort.

Effort-reward imbalance cause much more harm than good, and that's scientifically proven. I know that it's just a game and most of us are playing for fun... but there's not fun if someone put less effort and his reward is higher. Even the simple games, such as pinball, is giving you more points if you're more skilled(and know then to use each bouncer.

The reward urges us to seek new and better solutions, including creating bonds with other people, leading us to strive to be better. By giving up this WHOLE, we only cause stagnation for ourselves.

[Tyris Flare]

That's a false.
Higher ilvl people have higher probability of doing better content and having more experience.

I mean, there is a correlation but it is pretty weak. And it doesn't even take into account the fact that ilvl doesn't include conduits/binds/stat distributions/etc or any of the other things that are a HUGE portion of your dps.

Yes. There are harder content for better reward, just as it should be. If someone needs better reward, then he should put some effort.

Effort-reward imbalance cause much more harm than good, and that's scientifically proven. I know that it's just a game and most of us are playing for fun... but there's not fun if someone put less effort and his reward is higher. Even the simple games, such as pinball, is giving you more points if you're more skilled(and know then to use each bouncer.

The reward urges us to seek new and better solutions, including creating bonds with other people, leading us to strive to be better. By giving up this WHOLE, we only cause stagnation for ourselves.

The problem with this is that you're making a normative argument about what should be rather than what is. In 2005, this game had essentially no competition, so it could get away with things that it can't get away with today. If a player now has no path forward, they can just go play another game. Or they boost and skip the process anyway.

I'm not advocating for the removal of gear tiers or anything, just that the gap needs to be smaller like basically every other game on the planet.

[Eazy]

I mean, there is a correlation but it is pretty weak. And it doesn't even take into account the fact that ilvl doesn't include conduits/binds/stat distributions/etc or any of the other things that are a HUGE portion of your dps.

I wouldn't be so sure saying that the correlation is pretty weak. I haven't seen a single bad player with 250ilvl. But I guess there's some kind of treshold for this exact moment where you can actually say "that player is good"(such as 250ilvl, but that's JUST my personal observation).

The problem with this is that you're making a normative argument about what should be rather than what is.

Yes and I agree with it.

In 2005, this game had essentially no competition, so it could get away with things that it can't get away with today.

That's true. But the times change. For example: we didn't have simming before, we didn't have as many levels of difficulty and so many paths of progressions.

TBH I'd like to see these times once again, but its impossible. Panta rhei

Or they boost and skip the process anyway.

It would happen no matter what. Bonus ilvl wouldn't suddenly make them more skilled and wouldn't actually teach them how to play better. It would cause totally different thing, they would try to join higher ilvl content they wouldn't be prepared for.

If a player now has no path forward, they can just go play another game.

There are still plenty of things they can do.
I don't want an endless grinding for gear. That totally destroys the fun from the reward. "It's not WF/TF/socketed... I'd like to get higher ilvl of that item"(and such a situations happened before).
We've got the shards upgrades, I'd say they should take a little longer to upgrade to the highest possible level and give bigger advantage(so it could work for LFR/NM/HC/Mythic and kinda smaller the gap).

I'm not advocating for the removal of gear tiers or anything, just that the gap needs to be smaller like basically every other game on the planet.

I kinda agree. Tbh I'd even like to see smaller differences between the diffculties loot ilvl(even 190LFR, 200Normal, 210Heroic, 220Mythic). But I'd never agree that someone who does LFR deserve the mythic ilvl. That's just an absurd. As I wrote it plenty of times, the reward should be equal to effort.

MAYBE if they add the badges(so it would've been a straight and simple progress, not something random) that drop from raid/M+ and could make people craft one mythic limited items(like 6 or so of them, not whole set) each month or something, I'd support it.
I'd even say that they should strip the restrictions for the M+ upgrades for Valor, but reduce the VP gain/cap. That would be a nice middle ground.
But Heavy RNG casino welfare? No way in hell.

[Huzzaa]

Didn't we already go over this.

The current system is far better than the lottery game.
The frustrating part about the rng-forging is the bit when you get cucked.

Also, it highly favours degenerate gameplay where one is far better than his peers if he spends 10 more hours than others in-game every day. Thanks, no thanks.

[Kaver]

I really don’t care about what gear other players get. The reason why is dislike Titanforging is purely because I don’t want my character progression to be dependent on more RNG than it already is. I just want character progression to be more reliable and less of a gamble. It can be slow and tedious as long as I don’t have to play a casino simulator.

[rrayy]

That's true. But it wasn't like that exactly. You could get almost HC gear in a few weeks(with other content, such as random legendaries for example).
It's RNG after all.



Sure and I agree.

Goofd then you have no argument against Titanforging.

It isn't going to hurt you one iota for an LFR player to have one piece of Mythic gear.

If being fair and demanding justice is called elitism, then sure, call me one.

Not what you are doing at all. YOu are demanding to be special and exclusive. That is eilitism.

[QUOTE=Eazy;53404356]I just believe that people who put effort should receive more and better. It's that simple.
It's MMO after all, for me all the content where you are automatically joining other people shouldn't give any reward at all.[/.quote]Again, a LFR player will be lucky if they get even one Mythic level through titanforging. You will have a full set easily. You are already getting more and better for your effort. You just want to lord your superoiroty over everyone.

There is few of reasons why they shouldn't:
-it will cause a faster burn-out for MYTHIC players, they will do every content possible for a small chance of getting an upgrade,
-the ilvl requirement will be HIGHER in LFG for the content it shouldn't, right now for the heroic raiding you can see >240ilvl groups which is ridiculous high, more people getting higher ilvls = higher ilvl requirement for the content, DO NOT tell me that didn't happen in the previous expansion where WF/TF were implemented, because that happened and there was an outrage because of it,

Not if you don't have titanforging in HC/Mythic. everything else is a palyer self control problem, not a game problem.

-mythic players would feel that the game isn't rewarding enough, because why some LFR guy gets an item they were farming for a few weeks?

A mythic raider will have their frull set before almsot all LFR players have even one piece. Stop with this false narrative.

It would cause more harm than good. No LFR player deserve mythic ilvl item.

who made you sole arbiter of who deserves what? Players deserve what ever loot drops to them. Period.

Effort = reward. If someone don't want to work for their prize, they simply do not deserve it. There is nothing fairer than this and that's a fact.

Again, you will have a full set while a LFR person will be lucky to have even one pice. YOu get rewasrd for your effort.And again who made you arbiter of what people deserve? This is all about you wanting to feel superior and special. Stop with this BS narrative.

[kamuimac]

Didn't we already go over this.

The current system is far better than the lottery game.
The frustrating part about the rng-forging is the bit when you get cucked.

Also, it highly favours degenerate gameplay where one is far better than his peers if he spends 10 more hours than others in-game every day. Thanks, no thanks.

current system failed completly as nearly all players left game to play something else

only ones supporting current system are those benefiting from it direckly - aka top 1 % .

game is in abysmal bad state - m+ are completly dead below +15 keys and nothign is even suggesting that devs want to improve it

9.1.5 will be best proof of it.

and no - this is not just bashing game

have you tried keys like 10-14 lately ? not only there are next to none of them outside of 19-22 but also people there fail complelty - its extremly bad and unfun gameplay

game is basicly dead below 15 keys .