Will there be any pro-store-mount players on the Community Council?

[Tyris Flare]

The other major thing would be to figure out a way to reduce demand. You're never going to eliminate it for a lot of stuff without also invalidating the achievements in the first place, but some combination of:
1) personal consumables cost less. Pots of prolonged power in Legion were great because you could easily get enough just by playing the game. Mission tables with bags of consumables are also good, though it might be better to find a different delivery mechanism (covs made this worse with ppl swapping and getting too annoyed to level multiple sets of followers).
2) More sources of gear with better catch-up. They actually seem to be doing this with the new sets, which is great. Put less pressure on people to boost with alts when they should in theory want to play the game instead.

Not easy solutions though and it's hard to speculate how much difference it would make. But basically, the s1 problem of pvp gear and boosting is probably the worst case scenario they should definitely try to avoid imo.

[Beefhammer]

I don't get this line of logic. The more its cracked down on the less visible it is. That is the issue. I checked once and my server had 46 boosting ads in trade in a minute. See my murder example earlier in the thread.

It wasn't visable before but people were still doing it. People were advertising on server forums and guild websites. I don't really see the issue with it. Make a channel for advertising and enforce advertising outside of it.

- - - Updated - - -

It's funny how you attempt to narrow down gaslighting to its most malicous form, here's what Wikipedia actually says about gaslighting.


It's not just about driving a person towards the point of insanity, it's already enough that the person starts to doubt themself to fit the term of gaslighting.
Which you are engaging, as your argument is to put forward the narrative that my feedback is actually the problem, not the the developers ability to process that feedback properly.

And frankly the fact that you blame player feedback is in my opinion a false narrative, the feedback that has called out issues has always been there and the very people voicing that feedback were present in those private forums with direct access to the devs.
At which point, there are only two options.

(1) They believed that feedback is incorrect
(2) They didn't even bother to read it

And unfortunately for the devs, if it's (1), then they frankly fucked up because the issues that have been called out ocurred every time.
And if it's (2), then this entire discussion is pointless anyway.

Yeah, sadly there aren't any peer reviewed studies about the private forums between the WoW theorycrafting community and the WoW development team.
But considering that every person who has been part of these forums and spoken out has effectively said the same thing, i think there is an ounce of truth to it.

The general consensus has been:
"We called that issue during Beta, they didn't act".

I'm just calling out dishonest behavior when i see it.

When someone claims that the drama surrounding legendaries in Legion was actually being able to wear two, then they either lack a fundemental understanding of the system and thus should not engage in a discussion or are being intellectually dishonest.

Sorry, if there was any confusion, you could've just asked, but then you would've naturally exposed your lack of knowledge of the situation.

If you have two equivalent players and one of them does 10% more damage (and that is certainly the discrepancy that was present during early Legion), because of some random drop that you can only close by comitting to an outrageous grind, i'd say that complaint is valid.

If someone wants to do the best Single Target dps their spec is capable off, then let them and don't force a niche legendary down their throat in order to "spice things up".
This is like being randomnly assigned a talent because the devs believed it would make things more interesting - it doesn't.

And those people that have said "this shit won't work" have been right on legendaries, on Azerite, on Corruption and on Covenants.

Because they flip flopped on their philosophy for 6 years by now and on top of that, caused them massives headaches as they had to balance that shit and sometimes even redesign that.

We can all argue about flying, but at least the lack of flying in Legion or BfA didn't have the consequence of Blizzard constantly worrying about balancing that specific system or even redesigning a system mid expansion.

Imagine if all that time that went into attempting to balance something such as the various Covenant abilities, Conduits and Soulbinds into something else, rather than attempting to balance something that cannot be balanced and due to the friction involved causes frustration among a lot of players.

Because telling players "you need X Currency to buy [powerful item]" would be "nothing to do"?
I don't think you'd find a lot of people that had serious problems with farming a legendary, but rather that they were being assigned one at random.

Disregarding that "it would upset some people" is just a non argument, by your very on words.

The problem is that and i reiterate that, people who has had access to private forums to have a direct connections to the developers have pointed out serious issues with each system in the last 3 expansions and every single time those issues blew up in their faces and they had to scramble in order to get it done - only to then throw out the system itself by the end of the expansion and then make the very same mistake again next expansion.

This is not rational behavior and frankly also a very dishonest way to engage with your most dedicated community, it's not like those theorycrafters crunch those numbers during lunchbreak.

And that's your choice, which is fine, however that doesn't mean this is how a lot of other players play the game.
There is a reason why, by your own admission, you even encounter those "Meta slaves" in game modes such as LFR, where Mythic raiders certainly are not present: Because a lot of other people play the game that way.

Sites such as Icyveins, Warcraftlogs, etc.. wouldn't have such a huge traffic if not a larger audience (or more specifically, not just the infamous 1%) also partake in such a mentality.
This mentality spreads because it finds resonance with a lot of people, it's not some unseen ruler with an ironfist that "enforceing" this Meta.

If people want to play whatever they want, go ahead, i think the people who want to "enforce" a Meta are wrong, but at the same time, putting artificial hurdles in the way of players that want to play the "Meta" is also wrong.
Don't force people to play the game in a certain way, this goes in both directions.

I have no issues with those that want to follow what theorycrafters say they should. Totally agree with your last statement.

[Chipped coin]

I'm waiting to hear your solutions.

Are you? You seemed hung up on how comparisons worked...

The realistic solution is blizzard cracks down on in game advertisements force them into google searches via active moderation so they don't interfer with gameplay.

[Relapses]

Are you? You seemed hung up on how comparisons worked...

The realistic solution is blizzard cracks down on in game advertisements force them into google searches via active moderation so they don't interfer with gameplay.

Because Blizzard GM's can't possibly have more important things to do than ban level 1 accounts spamming /2? And there isn't any possible way that the people doing the advertisement will simply create new accounts to continue doing the same activity, right?

Please propose an actual solution.

[Chipped coin]

It wasn't visable before but people were still doing it. People were advertising on server forums and guild websites. I don't really see the issue with it. Make a channel for advertising and enforce advertising outside of it.

- - - Updated - - -



I have no issues with those that want to follow what theorycrafters say they should. Totally agree with your last statement.

Comes down to volume. Its became a issue as its grown. You have to hit advertising accounts quick enough that it isn't profitable to spam them.

- - - Updated - - -

Because Blizzard GM's can't possibly have more important things to do than ban level 1 accounts spamming /2? And there isn't any possible way that the people doing the advertisement will simply create new accounts to continue doing the same activity, right?

Please propose an actual solution.

What is a gm doing exactly if not moderating chat...? Technical gms are a second rung.

[Relapses]

Comes down to volume. Its became a issue as its grown. You have to hit advertising accounts quick enough that it isn't profitable to spam them.

Lemme guess, Blizzard is a multi dollar company and if they wanted to they could hire 9,000,000 GMs tomorrow and have them trained and ready to destroy all boosting advertisement in the game in a matter of seconds?

- - - Updated - - -

What is a gm doing exactly if not moderating chat...? Technical gms are a second rung.

Tell us more about a GM's job description since you seem to be an expert on what they do and don't do.

[Chipped coin]

Lemme guess, Blizzard is a multi dollar company and if they wanted to they could hire 9,000,000 GMs tomorrow and have them trained and ready to destroy all boosting advertisement in the game in a matter of seconds?

- - - Updated - - -



Tell us more about a GM's job description since you seem to be an expert on what they do and don't do.

Alright. The first rung of gm support is mostly customer service. They verify what the problem is and if there are simple ways of remedying it. For example console commands, character stuck back when they did, deleted mods, etc.

The second is for technical issues that require more then the base commands. Something like setting a characters reputation in case it bugs out ( rare now a days more common earlier) item recovery from compromised accounts and other actions that take more technical knowledge and trust to do.

There is also a kind of third run but they are not really gms and handle payment matters.

As for hiring more gm. It wouldn't take much to hire more with the limited tool set tier one gms have.

[Relapses]

Alright. The first rung of gm support is mostly customer service. They verify what the problem is and if there are simple ways of remedying it. For example console commands, character stuck back when they did, deleted mods, etc.

The second is for technical issues that require more then the base commands. Something like setting a characters reputation in case it bugs out ( rare now a days more common earlier) item recovery from compromised accounts and other actions that take more technical knowledge and trust to do.

There is also a kind of third run but they are not really gms and handle payment matters.

source: dude trust me

As for hiring more gm. It wouldn't take much to hire more with the limited tool set tier one gms have.

Blizzard just needs to download more GMs, right?

[Chipped coin]

source: dude trust me



Blizzard just needs to download more GMs, right?

Do you ask questions believing they don't have answers to be clever then act dismissive when people bring up the easy to find answers to your question?

It is a low skilled customer management position are we roleplaying that it would be difficult to hire for it?

You can't be the most clueless out of touch person on this site then try to be snide about it. Figure a few things out before getting egg on your face.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Are you? You seemed hung up on how comparisons worked...

The realistic solution is blizzard cracks down on in game advertisements force them into google searches via active moderation so they don't interfer with gameplay.

Realistically this can never work blizzard spent years trying to stop gold sellers with moderation and it never even slowed down.

[Chipped coin]

Your answers aren't sourced. You are pretending to have internal knowledge of how Blizzard's GM system works and I'm supposed to believe you because why would anybody go on the internet to tell lies?



Because of the fact that you have absolutely no fucking idea what the current job description for a GM at Blizzard entails it's pretty arrogant to assume that Blizzard can "easily" hire for it.



And this may actually be the single most ironic thing anybody on this website has ever written.

You really dont know gms work on a 2 tier system..? Have you ever talked to them?

- - - Updated - - -

Realistically this can never work blizzard spent years trying to stop gold sellers with moderation and it never even slowed down.

I think it could curb it... not get rid of it but at least bring us down from almost an ad a second.

[Relapses]

You really dont know gms work on a 2 tier system..? Have you ever talked to them?

Are you frequently quizzing the GMs on their job descriptions? You are speaking factually about something nobody on this forum could realistically know. But really, that doesn't matter because...

I think it could curb it... not get rid of it but at least bring us down from almost an ad a second.

...you've determined, in your infinite and great wisdom, that if Blizzard invests hundreds and thousands of dollars on the recruitment and training of new GMs whose entire job description is banning people who advertise boosting that it might reduce the number of boosting advertisements in /2 down from the currently unacceptable 1 a second to a more reasonable 1 every two seconds.

Like, fucking real dude?

[Lorgar Aurelian]

I think it could curb it... not get rid of it but at least bring us down from almost an ad a second.

I'm pulling this out of my arse but Id assume ads have gotten alot easier to spam with how much addons and such have grown since the gold selling market died down and even then you could get your chat completely full of seller spam at peak times as well as multiple ingame mail from sellers corpses spelling out things and so on, and this was back when gold sellers mostly got there gold from hacked accounts so blizzard would have way more reasons to put a ton of effort into stopping them. so Id doubt there would be much impact.

realistically the only way to combat this stuff is by lowering demand so the market dies off like we saw with the token and the fall of gold selling.

[Chipped coin]

I'm pulling this out of my arse but Id assume ads have gotten alot easier to spam with how much addons and such have grown since the gold selling market died down and even then you could get your chat completely full of seller spam at peak times as well as multiple ingame mail from sellers corpses spelling out things and so on, and this was back when gold sellers mostly got there gold from hacked accounts so blizzard would have way more reasons to put a ton of effort into stopping them. so Id doubt there would be much impact.

realistically the only way to combat this stuff is by lowering demand so the market dies off like we saw with the token and the fall of gold selling.

I agree it needs a far more aggressive moderation then seen before. The idea of relying on reports isn't viable for the issue.

[Amnaught]

I think there are a lot of us that are happy to buy microtransactions if we like the item and are enjoying the game. A lot of people loved the cat mount. I did too but I didn't buy it because I do not like WoW ATM.

I think the pro-store faction would push for more cosmetic stuff like town outfits, swimsuits, holiday outfits, along with more pets and mounts, etc. TBH, WoW's store kind of sucks in their offerings compared to other games that offer a much larger variety of stuff along with frequency.

Is there any reason to argue that those new things should not be added to ingame vendors for high gold prices, with the expectation that if you're cool with microtransactions you can just buy the gold?

[Relapses]

Is there any reason to argue that those new things should not be added to ingame vendors for high gold prices, with the expectation that if you're cool with microtransactions you can just buy the gold?

...you'd have to presume with your anti-store stance that you'd require Blizzard to remove the token from the store, too. And at that point you're essentially writing a billion dollar check to the Chinese gold farming community. So that would be a pretty disastrous suggestion.

[Amnaught]

...you'd have to presume with your anti-store stance that you'd require Blizzard to remove the token from the store, too. And at that point you're essentially writing a billion dollar check to the Chinese gold farming community. So that would be a pretty disastrous suggestion.

Nah, I'm pro-token.

I'm anti- things that MUST be paid for by a token, and never change dollar value as the years go on, or are occasionally removed specifically to increase demand through fear-of-missing-out. The Celestial Steed doesn't have the polygon count to expect it would have cost $25 cash, $40 in tokens, or ~300,000 gold. It would have started at like 10k on an ingame vendor and gradually become easier to obtain with gold inflation.

But honestly it feels massively crappy that these new mounts are taking art time away from mounts obtainable through achievements. Why is the 17th anniversary mount a recolor of a 2007 model, instead of an entirely new updated dragonhawk model that they obviously had time to create? Then they could have added recolors of it to other parts of the game without people whining about their special version they paid 25 bucks for; like Blizz did for the Corehound.

[Alanar]

The people who are going to get on the community council will probably be youtubers and streamers. Most of WoW's youtubers and streamers were old timers who remember the era before horse armor DLC and despise having to pay $25 for a mount that should have been able to have been earned in a game that they already paid for and have to pay a $15 fee for. However, by this point most of the oldtimer content creators have been alienated by WoW or have died: TotalBiscuit, towelliee, Swifty, Mute, Preach, etc. At this point, the only prominent streamers and youtubers left are... what? Bellular and Asmongold? And they're of the newer generation that grew up with horse armor dlc being the norm and I haven't heard them express their distaste for the cash shop. So yes, we'll probably see people who are pro-cash shop, or not opposed to it. Not that it matters because even if someone did get on board who voiced their distaste of it, it's not like they would be listened to.

Asmon has said multiple times the cash shop is shit, but I think you are right, they are part of that generation. Anything before that just quit wow realy.

[rrayy]

Are you? You seemed hung up on how comparisons worked...

The realistic solution is blizzard cracks down on in game advertisements force them into google searches via active moderation so they don't interfer with gameplay.

They aren't interfering with game play. Just type /leave. Problem solved.

- - - Updated - - -

I will never understand why it is so complicated to have the best from both world.

Put even more store mounts, but also keep some unique models as ultra rare drops in-game only and then also the reward mounts like raiding, pvp.. as it is now.

Everyone´s happy, win-win scenario for all.

Except that it isn't because the anti-shop mob will still complain.

[Relapses]

Nah, I'm pro-token.

I'm anti- things that MUST be paid for by a token, and never change dollar value as the years go on, or are occasionally removed specifically to increase demand through fear-of-missing-out. The Celestial Steed doesn't have the polygon count to expect it would have cost $25 cash, $40 in tokens, or ~300,000 gold. It would have started at like 10k on an ingame vendor and gradually become easier to obtain with gold inflation.

Inflation doesn't happen at a set rate in WoW. Putting everything on the store to be purchased by cash or gold kind of invalidates the purpose of the token in the first place. It'd also necessitate easing restrictions on the amounts of WoW tokens able to be purchased which would arguably drive inflation up even higher. Hard pass on that.

But honestly it feels massively crappy that these new mounts are taking art time away from mounts obtainable through achievements. Why is the 17th anniversary mount a recolor of a 2007 model, instead of an entirely new updated dragonhawk model that they obviously had time to create? Then they could have added recolors of it to other parts of the game without people whining about their special version they paid 25 bucks for; like Blizz did for the Corehound.

You're assuming that it's the same team working on both types of mounts. We don't know that Blizzard doesn't have an entire team within the company whose job is to facilitate shop mounts. (And frankly, it's kind of boring to look at everything Blizzard does or doesn't do as "taking away" from something else in the company.)