Is it healthy to gate flying behind "pathfinders"?

[XDurionX]

If flying mounts weren't added, WoW wouldn't have grown as big as it did reaching 12 million subscribers.

[citation needed]

I can do wild claims too, bro.

[Santti]

[citation needed]

I can do wild claims too, bro.

Yeah, I doubt the ability to fly had much of an impact on the numbers.

And I very much agree that flying was a mistake.

I wish Blizzard would have gone through with their plans for WoD, and not have flying at all for it. The community went Reeeee, and we got Pathfinding instead, as a compromise.

[XDurionX]

Yeah, I doubt the ability to fly had much of an impact on the numbers.

And I very much agree that flying was a mistake.

I wish Blizzard would have gone through with their plans for WoD, and not have flying at all for it. The community went Reeeee, and we got Pathfinding instead, as a compromise.

Flying killed exploration. Flying killed excitement. Flying killed any sense of danger in the world. Flying makes people consume a whole path worth of content in two weeks.

Yes, blizzard shot themselves in the foot with adding a detrimental feature just for some sales without considering the longevity of the game. But to be fair, at that time nobody would have thunk WoW would make it to a 20-year anniversary.

[uncl55]

Im ok with pathfinder but not ok with it timegated one or two major content patches, it should be available at the start of the expansion.

[WowIsDead64]

Flying makes people consume a whole path worth of content in two weeks.

Please explain, how is it possible. Flying doesn't allow me to kill mobs faster. It doesn't remove artificial time gates. It doesn't remove competition with other players. BFA has clearly shown, that even flying can't solve all problems with outdoor content in this game.

[Zantera]

I think it makes a lot of sense to not have flying at the start and introduce it in the .1 patch personally. To me that's a win-win because you get to really see the new zones in a nice way and once you get flying it actually feels more rewarding. I also feel like the amount of hate people throw at Pathfinder in general is silly because it's things you do automatically in the game anyways so it's just like a reward for paying the game. Like getting the new reps to Revered or whatever? I'm probably exalted with all current factions on 4 or 5 characters without too much effort - doing it on ONE character is cakewalk.

I'm not necessarily against adding it on launch either but I think an expansion like Wotlk that had good zones suffered because of it because whenever people talk about how great the zones were, I mostly think back about flying over them to whatever destination I was going. Never really felt I "explored" them in the same way I explored other zones by foot.

[Grimbold21]

The thread was already solved with the second reply

The postponement of flying via Pathfinders is resented by some players because of the zone design after MoP.

Though, personally, during Cata's opening night, I quite enjoyed lvling my main for a few hours, switching to an alt, and flying around Uldum mining Elementium

[Raelbo]

So, they admit, that flying isn't something bad and content can be designed around having it.

I am not sure they will ever admit that. As I read it, they see giving us flying as a compromise on their part.

It also can be sign of long awaited "separate pathfinder for every content patch" system.

This would be a welcome development that I have been advocating for for a long time.

I want to remind you, that flying:
1) Important factor for casual/alt-friendliness of game. Not all players want ground content to be challenging. Not all players treat going from point A to point B as content. Not all players like treasure hunting. Etc. Some players want to simply do their daily objectives and that's it.
2) It's great motivation to do things, as flying mounts are great reward. Flying mounts are much more desirable, than ground ones.

I think what tends to muddy discussions about whether flying is "good" or "bad" is that it is context specific. A lot of people, on both sides of the debate, tend to argue the merits/problems of flying in in black and white terms without considering different contexts or that these contexts tend to change over time. In other words, what is "good" for the game now, won't necessarily remain "good" for the game indefinitely. Six months from now, it might even become "bad" for the game.

At the end. Is it healthy to gate flying behind "pathfinders"? For several xpacks in a row flying is held as hostage in order to force players to do 100% content.

I think the idea behind pathfinder is great. However I don't agree that it is always implemented in the best way. And I would put this down to the Blizzard devs not all being on the same page when it comes to whether they believe flying is "good" or "bad" for the game.

Several Blizzard devs have stated outright that they believe flying is terrible for the game because it ruins immersion and results in players taking the "path of least resistance" at the expense our own fun. And yes, they have a point. However, as I said above, context is important. And to this end, I strongly believe that Blizzard's argument only holds true for new content. Furthermore, I believe that once content is no longer new, flying actually helps to enhance the game experience. And I strongly suspect that those behind the idea of pathfinder get this.

Unfortunately I also strongly suspect that there is a camp within Blizzard that sees it differently. They see it as a case of they get their way for a while, then grudgingly allow players to get our way after waiting a certain length of time (as long as possible). And this is why the final implementation of pathfinder and how flying is introduced doesn't always make a lot of sense or have the positive impact it should have.

It causes bad behavior:
1) Players feel, that game is incomplete without flying

Each unto their own I guess. I am not sure how this qualifies as "bad behavior" though

2) Players have to rush towards getting flying instead of just enjoying content

This has definitely been a consistent point of failure with pathfinder implementations to date. Pathfinder is not something that should ever need to be rushed, or that players are enticed to do just to activate flying. It should be something that happens naturally by just playing the game, and we should have ample time to finish it before flying is introduced.

A classic example of their failure was during BfA when the activated flying. We had loads of time to achieve pathfinder. That was fine. But then they introduced Mechagon and Naz'jatar and made the requirement to activate flying involve rushing to complete a bunch of new content. This was insane. Instead of people being left to choose the pace at which we wanted to do this great new content, we were all heavily incentivised to rush it in pursuit of the reward of flying. The point of pathfinder was supposed to be improving immersion, but what they did achieved the opposite.

A far better way of handling pathfinder in BfA would have been to activate flying in Zandalar and Kul'Tiras without any requirements to complete content in Naz'jatar or Mechagon. The activation of flying in the two new zones should have been delayed for a few extra months, giving us time to complete the requirements for Pathfinder part II without having to rush.

3) Players are forced to do content, they don't like

I think there is a fine line between enticing players to do content they might otherwise have opted to skip, and forcing players to do content they actively don't like. Pathfinder is a great means of achieving the former, although they do need to be careful of the latter. Personally I don't think anything Pathfinder has thrown at us thus far has been problematic.

4) Players have to stay unsubbed not to spoil their experience in case of time-gating/catch-ups

I don't understand this point.

So. If flying isn't that bad, Blizzard admit it and it's added at the end, then may be "pathfinders" aren't needed?

Blizzard haven't admitted that "flying isn't that bad". They give us flying as a compromise because we've made it clear that withholding it indefinitely is not acceptable.

Pathfinder, done correctly, is a great solution because it:
1) Keeps us on the ground with new content is a good thing
2) Incentivises doing the content that makes the game fun, content that we might otherwise be tempted to skip
3) Introduces flying at the right time, when flying enhances the game experience

[Grimbold21]

It's quite simple.

If Blizzard designs zones with even a tinge of the Nazjatar syle, some people will want flying right away. I would personally argue that the "compromise" of having certain areas of a given zone being opened - see Bastion - is overshadowed by all the mob density and cliffs or ups and downs that you must traverse around of.

Just stick to massive open expansives. Give us Tanaris, give us Redridge Mountains, give us Badlands, give us Desolace, or Nagrand, or Sholozar, or Valley of the Four Winds.

[WowIsDead64]

I also want to add, that I'm not sure, if flying is enough to solve all problems. BFA has clearly shown, that content can be bad even with flying. It's about overall direction of development. If some players like current content and Blizzard don't want to lose them, than ok - we need some better way to provide options to those players, who don't like current content. Current state of game shows, that we need some fundamental changes. And I don't see them in patch 9.2.

[diarx]

It's quite simple.

If Blizzard designs zones with even a tinge of the Nazjatar syle, some people will want flying right away. I would personally argue that the "compromise" of having certain areas of a given zone being opened - see Bastion - is overshadowed by all the mob density and cliffs or ups and downs that you must traverse around of.

Just stick to massive open expansives. Give us Tanaris, give us Redridge Mountains, give us Badlands, give us Desolace, or Nagrand, or Sholozar, or Valley of the Four Winds.

So much this. Even Barren's I'd say. There's a certain scale/perspective you get that makes the world feel huge when zones/horizons aren't so boxed in.

Though flying could work for leveling if they made a very vertical zone, maybe adding some tough flying mobs, levitating platforms (Thinking Kid Icarus/Metroid on NES here) and blizz trying to think up unconventional ways of making the outdoor gameplay vertically interesting. To go very vertical I think that's just going to be limited to very alien/specific zone types.

[DarkAmbient]

Pathfinder has always been bullshit. It has no benefit for players, it exists only as another timegate system for achievement hunters.

[SL1200]

I quit playing the game in 2017. If pathfinder wasn't a thing i'd still be playing. I'm thinking that i'm going to try the next expansion, but if they're assholes about the pathfinder I just won't bother.

[Elias1337]

Flying should never be in the game in first place.

[crusadernero]

In the end you will have the flight in Zereth Mortis thanks to the decryption system.

So, it's looks like flying is going to be added to 9.2 content. It's great news, because Blizzard are going to break that old silly made up "no flying in locations, that aren't connected to main map" restriction. So, they admit, that flying isn't something bad and content can be designed around having it. It also can be sign of long awaited "separate pathfinder for every content patch" system.

I want to remind you, that flying:
1) Important factor for casual/alt-friendliness of game. Not all players want ground content to be challenging. Not all players treat going from point A to point B as content. Not all players like treasure hunting. Etc. Some players want to simply do their daily objectives and that's it.
2) It's great motivation to do things, as flying mounts are great reward. Flying mounts are much more desirable, than ground ones.

But...

At the end. Is it healthy to gate flying behind "pathfinders"? For several xpacks in a row flying is held as hostage in order to force players to do 100% content. It causes bad behavior:
1) Players feel, that game is incomplete without flying
2) Players have to rush towards getting flying instead of just enjoying content
3) Players are forced to do content, they don't like
4) Players have to stay unsubbed not to spoil their experience in case of time-gating/catch-ups

So. If flying isn't that bad, Blizzard admit it and it's added at the end, then may be "pathfinders" aren't needed?

I have no problem with pathfinder being a achivment you work towards to get flying. The pacing of it is the issue. Once we have done all the requierments, just give us flying. Theres been times were we did nothing else but just wait to get flying, even though every requierment was done. Thats just wrong.

[Skylarking]

I hate friction with the traveling, and that is what these new zones are. Just something constantly fucking slowing you down and being annoying as fuck. Either fuck off with these annoying zone designs or give flying at the beginning... not to mention the most ANNOYING aspect of ground mounts of all time

D

A

Z

E

[Beefhammer]

I think it's perfectly fine. Devs make a game experience they want players to see not skip or avoid. Regardless of if players do don't want to. Just being able to PvP or dungeon your way through to level cap to grab flying just drop in and do quests isn't how they want it done. There is nothing wrong with having to go through the campaign and a few other things first.

I'd rather Flying eas kept as a TBC only thing and maybe in special zones as needed. Flying was one of the worst things done to WoW IMO. But it's here and the upside out on removing it in WoD. This is a fair compromise.

- - - Updated - - -

I have no problem with pathfinder being a achivment you work towards to get flying. The pacing of it is the issue. Once we have done all the requierments, just give us flying. Theres been times were we did nothing else but just wait to get flying, even though every requierment was done. Thats just wrong.

I agree with this as well. Ser the requirements then reward or allow to purchase once complete.

- - - Updated - - -

Flying should never be in the game in first place.

I also agree.

[DechCJC]

The only part of pathfinder that I’ve ever disliked is time gating it.

If you’ve explored the zone and beaten the story, you should be able to fly. I don’t think having flying straight off the bat is a good move either. I think flying is a fun reward for having conquered the land below you in the intended fashion.

I’m not against some zones having flying off the bat if the terrain is designed for it, more zones like storm peaks or deepholme could be fun.

[MrLachyG]

I hate friction with the traveling, and that is what these new zones are. Just something constantly fucking slowing you down and being annoying as fuck. Either fuck off with these annoying zone designs or give flying at the beginning... not to mention the most ANNOYING aspect of ground mounts of all time

D

A

Z

E

you know there is a piece of mount equipment that stops you from getting dazed/dismounted

[Tojara]

Pathfinding is fine, they just need to introduce it earlier, especially the opening ones in an expansion. Them 'gating' it behind a questline in 9.2 is really a non-issue. If 9.2 flying was gated behind 9.2.5 then I'd have a bigger issue.

Flying in .0 patches should literally be unlocked when you finish the story campaign at the latest. At that point you've pretty much experienced or seen all of the content in those very zones, so waiting until a .1 patch (which is normally 5-6 months in, along with another quest line) is just way too long. But several weeks or a couple months? That's generally fine for me, at least in WoW.

The TLDR here is that as soon as you've mastered the core features of the landscape in question you should be able to fly. Going back to farm anima, dailies, or whatever in a patch like 9.1 when that content is more or less obsolete with flying is dumb. If you get flying in the same patch you actually make much more use of it (at what time is up for debate). Basically flying should always be unlocked in the same patch the content is released.