Is it healthy to gate flying behind "pathfinders"?

[Kehego]

When I dinged 60 I'd explored the map and played the game but flying didn't unlock for me, maybe you played a different game.

you played all of a game with staggered releases the second you hit 60?
I mean, an mmo isn't something you finish playing in one day, but gotcha.

anyway like I said, flight sim 2021 exists.

[DarkAmbient]

So 'just playing the game' isn't enough after all. We can agree on that at least.

[Baroclinic]

Generally, my subscription is inactive somewhere between the start of an expansion and when they release flying.

[Biomega]

Generally, my subscription is inactive somewhere between the start of an expansion and when they release flying.

Maybe that's the actual play here (assuming you want to play WoW at all). I've stopped buying new single-player games on release, too, waiting about a year or so until they got all the fixes/updates/etc. sorted. Could just be a similar strategy here.

[Kalisandra]

Blizz doesn't want or like flying. And why should they? It's much easier to design content without it. It makes the world feel emptier. They get tons of complaints from PvPers wanting world PvP. It's in their every advantage to not give us flying. So when people started to campaign against flying in MoP, they excitedly hopped on that train, just like I warned at the time.

Funny thing is, the vast majority of 'world pvpers' when asked to give examples of why flying is bad mention how someone, when attacked, can 'just mount up and fly away'. Of course this means that the victim, when attacked, managed to break contact long enough to drop combat and mount up, which is not easy, and wasn't someone with stealth (who would of course just be able to stealth and sneak away). Also, they don't often mention what I'd consider the downside - that as a lowbie you can have someone just drop out of the sky onto you, and you're screwed. It's like many of the world-pvpers who hate flying are actually primarily gankers or something.

Thing is, to me flight makes the zones feel bigger (at least the ones that aren't tiny), because it lets me see further, with open sightlines. Also, so many zones look amazing from the air. I do don't believe that the artists and zone designers who put all that work in do so without looking at it from up high, and that making it look good from the air isn't one of their goals. That being the case, I think we should have flight, so that once we've been through a zone on the ground, we can then admire from the air also.

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Yes, but in TBC, the basic flying speed was jut 60%. You would actually go faster on land than on air. Max flight speed was only max-level Unless you were a Druid even basic and cost a lot of gold, too.

Unless you were a Druid even basic flight required that you hit the level cap.

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That's not even remotely true. Flying is easily unlocked by playing casually and they've lowered that bar more every expansion. The idea is that you play the game "the intended way", navigating the zone and its obstacles and monsters, then, much like catch-up gear, and "I've seen this before" dialogue options, flying allows you to skip over that on your alts and once that freshness has expired and you really just want to get from A-B at the fastest time possible.

In WoD they played 'will we, won't we' for most of the expansion, finally went with 'won't' until they experienced massive player backlash and then they relented - and put it behind an annoying rep grind that was gated. In Legion they promised it as 'early', then 'first patch', and then the patch was quite a long wait and flight was then gated again (and in such a way that if you missed a week for whatever reason you were a week behind in the grind). BfA was the same BS - wait for the first patch and then grind to get flight. At least in BfA flight was available in all the zones, and with the invasions happening in old zones even much of the last patch was flyable. And SL where we were told 'first patch, be at renown cap', and it turned out that actually meant 'first patch and grind out a gated questline', and flight is of less use than ever.

So no, the bar has not been lowered every expansion.

It works. For me at least. I'm actually all for more Maw-style zones which take us down the additional peg of nerfing access to mounts at all.

That was tolerable as a Druid or Shaman. It was awful as a Paladin or Priest.

[MrLachyG]

pathfinder should remain but they should have it all in the .0 patch

[Powerogue]

People often say this, but it's a bit disingenuous. Put it this way: would the average player fulfil the Pathfinder requirements just by levelling to 60? Because if not, then the system objectively makes you work more for flying than simply buying it with gold once you ding. Now, someone who intends to exhaust all the content anyway may well gradually attain the Pathfinder achievements via casual gameplay over several months, but what if I didn't intend to do that? Then I'm held hostage by Pathfinder.

It's taken me less time to get than grinding that gold did in BC.

And I'm not sure why people that play so little that even the tiniest obstacle of pathfinder that flying even matters that much.

It feels like there's a paradox with this and the other complaint of "we have such long patches before pathfinder is released" (during which you could play the game and be more than ready by the time it comes out)

Just how little are people playing the game in the months that the expansion is out pre-pathfinder that this is an obstacle? I have a full time job and don't have a raid schedule, got pathfinder on release because I played occasionally on weekends. That's how low that bar is right now. If it had required exalted with my covenant or even ve'nari, I had that already too.

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That was tolerable as a Druid or Shaman. It was awful as a Paladin or Priest.

Granted I played a monk so it was definitely easier, but there was always the ability to veer left out of ve'naris and pick up a free mount, or grand theft auto one off the roads.

[Amarys]

Flying should just be redesigned so you can't hover and just hop around on flying mounts.

Maybe like using the HS, 5-10s to summon the mount and then you can only land in clearings or parachute off the mount. Physics enabled flying pretty much.
This "linear" flying system on the other hand is immersion breaking and feels and looks like a relic from the 90s. Also it's really bad for World PvP. There's a reason why you can't fly in battlegrounds.

[Coniferous]

It's taken me less time to get than grinding that gold did in BC.

And I'm not sure why people that play so little that even the tiniest obstacle of pathfinder that flying even matters that much.

It feels like there's a paradox with this and the other complaint of "we have such long patches before pathfinder is released" (during which you could play the game and be more than ready by the time it comes out)

Just how little are people playing the game in the months that the expansion is out pre-pathfinder that this is an obstacle? I have a full time job and don't have a raid schedule, got pathfinder on release because I played occasionally on weekends. That's how low that bar is right now. If it had required exalted with my covenant or even ve'nari, I had that already too.

Because pathfinder prescribes the content you do. I didn't get pathfinder in b of a because I only raided and did dungeons. fuck world quests.

[Deadite]

pathfinder should remain but they should have it all in the .0 patch

Indeed. I think most people could live with Pathfinder is they never made you wait a year and then add part 2 that takes a few more weeks. As shitty are SHadowlands is at least they make the part 2 part easy this time. The twist being that all the zones are just small shitty instanced ones and flying between them was imopssible.

[loras]

Honestly they should just rework flying to be more engaging and dynamic sp that they can stop mucking about with this shit.

Hell just add some decent mechanics to it, they revamped battle pets properly so that they're more than pointless cosmetics but a semi-integrated usable part of the game, so i don't seevwhy flying mounts would be so different.

Don't want me to fly somewhere? Give 'em some anti air, progressively slow my mount due to cold, make it hard to navigate due to fog or add some strong crosswinds. Don't make it all negative though, that just creates sucky mechanics; winds could also make things go easier, fog could shroud you from AA, snow could cushion your fall if you land, etc..

[Kalisandra]

Indeed. I think most people could live with Pathfinder is they never made you wait a year and then add part 2 that takes a few more weeks. As shitty are SHadowlands is at least they make the part 2 part easy this time. The twist being that all the zones are just small shitty instanced ones and flying between them was imopssible.

And what really irks me about it - you can't even fly in Oribos. Why the hell not? The central areas are pretty much made for flight.

[cozzri]

how can you balance if there are no cons? That's what balance sort of entails...
Don't know of the games you mention or how they work, so I can't comment on it.

Yes, that is the point of mounts... doesn't mean it has to be without cons. Ground mount have cons compared to flying. No full mobility, slower, riskier etc etc.
as you can hear no one is against mounts. Most are against the completely overpowered state flying is implemented with.

I separate gameplay from lore. The reasons why we can't fly doesn't bother me in the least. Gameplay first, lore second. Flying gameplay is boring... that's all there is to it. Make flying more engaging and more people will enjoy it. Now it's almost like a teleport, nullifies the world terrain. Auto-fly to the next area etc etc. No thought, just point where you want to go and grab something to drink while you get there.

I mean, even any sort of fortification or bastion where you have to kill key targets inside are just noise, fly over everything, land kill the guy, fly off... Any sort of world design just get destroyed by it. Unless you make most things "inside", in which you can't fly... then people complain you have to "fight" through to your quest objective.

in the end it's too late for blizzard to change how flying works because players will be vehemently against anything short of what we have... At least pathfinders make the world and zone design actually relevant for a little bit. Not saying it's perfect by any means, they do make it frustrating at times, especially with density in certain areas. There are possible improvements for sure.

The quests themselves certainly give you reasons to be on the ground, you just get there quicker and have the option to approach the missions more strategically; this isn't a bad thing.

The bad thing is artificially stretching out the content to the point where you only unlock flying after you basically beat the entire game.

I remember leveling in wrath, if you 100% the zone quests, you easily had 3-5 full zones to explore at your leisure; flying, walking, ground mount, you have that choice. BFA had a similar leveling feel, but you had to wait FOREVER to get the flying unlock, one being a random mini-game daily reputation grind....

It's all artificial, fake. The carrot literally rots on the stick in front of you because it takes so long, by the time you reach the goal, what's the point? you have nothing left but daily quests....

[Stacko]

I'd be cool with it if it wasn't gated by patches. Having to explore is cool, waiting 6-9 months isn't.

[Log Cabin]

It just adds out padding to content that is designed to pad out the game...

[Itisamuh]

Well I still think adding flying to the game at all was a big mistake, so yes I also think if it has to exist at all it should be gated.

[WowIsDead64]

Well I still think adding flying to the game at all was a big mistake, so yes I also think if it has to exist at all it should be gated.

Flying - is one of those big mistakes, that show, that game can be better without made up challenge, because challenge is very specific in this game, as it makes it more tedious and annoying, than harder. It's bad for mostly for devs, because usually players play game as is till that exact moment, when they discover, that it can be better.

There is no way back. Pandora's box is open. Blizzard increase density of mobs to increase "challenge", but obsoleted aggro/combat mechanics feel more like "importunate fly", than challenge.

[Kumorii]

The quests themselves certainly give you reasons to be on the ground, you just get there quicker and have the option to approach the missions more strategically; this isn't a bad thing.

The bad thing is artificially stretching out the content to the point where you only unlock flying after you basically beat the entire game.

I remember leveling in wrath, if you 100% the zone quests, you easily had 3-5 full zones to explore at your leisure; flying, walking, ground mount, you have that choice. BFA had a similar leveling feel, but you had to wait FOREVER to get the flying unlock, one being a random mini-game daily reputation grind....

It's all artificial, fake. The carrot literally rots on the stick in front of you because it takes so long, by the time you reach the goal, what's the point? you have nothing left but daily quests....

Different opinions I guess. I dont find flying gives us more strategic options. It gives us "drop on their head" as the go to method for everything. Since you bypass everything and only fight the target.
Unless it's located inside a building. Which, if blizzard wanted to actually bother, could get different approaches with different entrances and different methods of approach.
Problem with flying and the idea that it gives options is just that by the nature of how flying works all options are the same.

The rest is just about stretching the game which I'm neither for or against. It's also very subjective... for example any game that have time between start and goal can be considered stretching the game.. or it could just be the game. Doom for example. We can argue any travel and any small arena fights against demons is stretching game time. It does, it does stretch it out compared to it wasn't there. But then the game just doesn't exist if it wasn't. I just want something engaging and fun. That's it. I don't necessarily want flying removed, I want it reworked so it becomes fun to use. Because now it's just boring. And frankly that to me is stretching game time more than if I actually enjoyed it. Because then the game does what it's supposed to do. Entertain. But yeah, subjective point.

Grinding rep is also something I am against. At least we have some common ground there.

[ImpalerEU]

In the end you will have the flight in Zereth Mortis thanks to the decryption system.

So, it's looks like flying is going to be added to 9.2 content. It's great news, because Blizzard are going to break that old silly made up "no flying in locations, that aren't connected to main map" restriction. So, they admit, that flying isn't something bad and content can be designed around having it. It also can be sign of long awaited "separate pathfinder for every content patch" system.

I want to remind you, that flying:
1) Important factor for casual/alt-friendliness of game. Not all players want ground content to be challenging. Not all players treat going from point A to point B as content. Not all players like treasure hunting. Etc. Some players want to simply do their daily objectives and that's it.
2) It's great motivation to do things, as flying mounts are great reward. Flying mounts are much more desirable, than ground ones.

But...

At the end. Is it healthy to gate flying behind "pathfinders"? For several xpacks in a row flying is held as hostage in order to force players to do 100% content. It causes bad behavior:
1) Players feel, that game is incomplete without flying
2) Players have to rush towards getting flying instead of just enjoying content
3) Players are forced to do content, they don't like
4) Players have to stay unsubbed not to spoil their experience in case of time-gating/catch-ups

So. If flying isn't that bad, Blizzard admit it and it's added at the end, then may be "pathfinders" aren't needed?

No. They should give you everything ASAP. Then you can complain about having everything.

[Lolites]

Well I still think adding flying to the game at all was a big mistake, so yes I also think if it has to exist at all it should be gated.

i think it should be convenience, mostly for alts, in OLD expansions, shouldnt be a thing in current content, we have ground mounts and flypoints so traveling is hardly an issue