The issue I currently have with the M+ system

[Berndorf]

Is I can completely acknowledge that for some people its great as it is, they love the timer and how the difficulty scales and all that. I think for others though including myself, we hate the timer, we hate the affixes and we hate the overall feeling of rush and stress that is an m+ dungeon. Its like some people play video games to escape the stress they get in a job or as a student and everything that comes with regular life. When we are in a video game its more about just having fun and not feeling like we are trying to meet a deadline or else the boss is going to tell us to get our shit together. Isn't there a way that dungeons can still be somewhat difficult and reward doing mechanics without all the stress of a timer and rushing the proper route for a specific dungeon and everything that goes with the current dungeon system? Even trash pulls can feel stressful in the current system due to the affixes.
Like with how even in Wrath you could get a few 264 pieces which was a 25m/10m heroic piece in icc via heroics and it wasn't the stressfest that M+ usually feels like. Isn't there somewhere where the two systems could meet for people who dislike the current one? Because I can't bring myself to do what passes for M+ currently. I did it somewhat for parts of Legion and bfa and got the stuff I wanted from it but it wasn't really enjoyable to me in the least. It didn't help either that most of the dungeons in Legion were slogfests with way too much trash as were some of the bfa ones. At this point the reward just isn't worth it to me. If it isn't fun I am not gonna invest the time which is why I just came back to screw around after a 10 month hiatus which will probably last a month or two before I wait to see what the next exp has to offer.

[shise]

WoW was hardcore 15 years ago. Today it should simply be chill and fun with some challenge.

M+ is the pit of toxicity and boosting.

I also have a busy stressful job, so indeed, it is no fun to log into wow and see that the main atraction are silly 5 men dungeons, recycled over and over with a timer and a bunch of randoms who can´t be bothered to say "hello" on the chat.

ANd that is ok. What is not ok is that they are mandatory... but now here comes the train of people claiming that nothing is mandatory. Yes, M+ is a mandatory content if you want to keep your character updated on equipment.

If M+ can give mythic BIS gear... so should other sources then: pvp, long end of chain quests.... freaking raids other than 1 and only one (play the patch not the expansion sucks)... etc

[Daffan]

WoW was hardcore 15 years ago. Today it should simply be chill and fun with some challenge.

And tomorrow they should have vendor that maxes your account

[Polybius]

And tomorrow they should have vendor that maxes your account

Fyi: You spend more time today gearing than years ago. Less strat more bumrush too.

[Kiria]

I personally can't stand Mythic+ people are totally toxic in that mode, if the slightest thing goes wrong it ends in arguments and wasted time/keys.

[LordVargK]

WoW was hardcore 15 years ago. Today it should simply be chill and fun with some challenge.

M+ is the pit of toxicity and boosting.

I also have a busy stressful job, so indeed, it is no fun to log into wow and see that the main atraction are silly 5 men dungeons, recycled over and over with a timer and a bunch of randoms who can´t be bothered to say "hello" on the chat.

ANd that is ok. What is not ok is that they are mandatory... but now here comes the train of people claiming that nothing is mandatory. Yes, M+ is a mandatory content if you want to keep your character updated on equipment.

If M+ can give mythic BIS gear... so should other sources then: pvp, long end of chain quests.... freaking raids other than 1 and only one (play the patch not the expansion sucks)... etc

15 years ago WoW was the most softcore MMORPG on the market.

[Berndorf]

And tomorrow they should have vendor that maxes your account

Some people still want to play the game and get rewards while playing it. The game itself should feel fun though. It shouldn't be complexity and difficulty just for the sake of it. There's a point where there's no fun in that.

[Zergin8r]

15 years ago WoW was the most softcore MMORPG on the market.

And that's why it was so successful, because anyone could jump in and play, you did not need to dedicate the same amount of time as a full time job to get anywhere.

[aarrok]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it feels as though WoW has become more an ESport catered to World First raiding and M+ Tournaments.

[LordVargK]

I find a lot of the toxicity goes away when you play with friends or guildies.

Yes, exactly that. You still get drama, though

[cparle87]

WoW was hardcore 15 years ago.

False. WoW became as big as it did in part because it was the casual alternative to truly hardcore games like UO and Runescape.

[Allatar]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it feels as though WoW has become more an ESport catered to World First raiding and M+ Tournaments.

I don't think you're wrong one bit.

[T-34]

Some people still want to play the game and get rewards while playing it. The game itself should feel fun though. It shouldn't be complexity and difficulty just for the sake of it. There's a point where there's no fun in that.

M+ has been in the game for many years now.
It is deliberately made as a competitive system.
It is one of the most successful additions to the game so far. And by successful I mean how many that participate in it.

You can either participate in a competitive system and earn the rewards that more or less match your skill,
or you can chose not to participate and not earn the rewards.

There is plenty of content in the game for people like you that don't like or aren't able to play in a co-operative competitive game mode.
Just as there is plenty of content in game for people like me that like to play in a co-operative competitive game mode.

To sum it up:
What people like you don't like by M+ -
that you are under pressure, that your efforts and skill have a direct impact on the success or failure of your run, that you can measure yourself against your peers -
is exactly what people like I like about it -
the adrenaline rush of "do we make it or not?", the joys of bettering yourself and doing better,
that it is clearly obvious who is a shitter or not (and that can be me, but that is part of it)

Please leave the best thing that has ever been added to WoW in peace and enjoy the rest of the content in-game that is made for people like you.

[thunderdragon2]

M+ has been in the game for many years now.
It is deliberately made as a competitive system.
It is one of the most successful additions to the game so far. And by successful I mean how many that participate in it.

You can either participate in a competitive system and earn the rewards that more or less match your skill,
or you can chose not to participate and not earn the rewards.

There is plenty of content in the game for people like you that don't like or aren't able to play in a co-operative competitive game mode.
Just as there is plenty of content in game for people like me that like to play in a co-operative competitive game mode.

To sum it up:
What people like you don't like by M+ -
that you are under pressure, that your efforts and skill have a direct impact on the success or failure of your run, that you can measure yourself against your peers -
is exactly what people like I like about it -
the adrenaline rush of "do we make it or not?", the joys of bettering yourself and doing better,
that it is clearly obvious who is a shitter or not (and that can be me, but that is part of it)

Please leave the best thing that has ever been added to WoW in peace and enjoy the rest of the content in-game that is made for people like you.

yeh no its kinda hard to leave it along when it rewards gear which is kinda necessary for raiding, you try doing mythic raiding being 10-15 ilvl behind every1 else because you did no m+ because you dont enjoy it, i tried and it failed, the participation levels are only as high as they are because its a gearing system, those levels would drop way down if gear was removed, i felt and still feel forced to do it in order to raid mythic.

i got a idea if you want to keep the gear in mythic+ cap the mythic+ vault at hc loot so that mythic raider dont feel that that they to touch m+ to keep up

[Pandragon]

ANd that is ok. What is not ok is that they are mandatory... but now here comes the train of people claiming that nothing is mandatory. Yes, M+ is a mandatory content if you want to keep your character updated on equipment.

I got super nervous when my Guild Leader put up a notice that M+ was required for the Mythic raiders. I got all +15s in season 1, and dont want to do it again. Sitting in sign up for 7 hours for 1 dungeon that might fail, I'm not going through that crap again. Luckily, enough people in the raid got geared enough that he didnt super enforce that rule.

[crusadernero]

yeh no its kinda hard to leave it along when it rewards gear which is kinda necessary for raiding, you try doing mythic raiding being 10-15 ilvl behind every1 else because you did no m+ because you dont enjoy it, i tried and it failed, the participation levels are only as high as they are because its a gearing system, those levels would drop way down if gear was removed, i felt and still feel forced to do it in order to raid mythic.

i got a idea if you want to keep the gear in mythic+ cap the mythic+ vault at hc loot so that mythic raider dont feel that that they to touch m+ to keep up

I would vager most people pug m+. Either alone or with a couple of friends/guildies and fill in the last spots with randoms. I'd suggest just removing mythic raiding and have LFR, normal & HC. That would make raiding more pug friendly were you could join random grps and obtain good gear from raiding.

The power creep would also not be as huge if 1 difficulty is removed. Also, very few do mythic raiding compared to anything else in this game. One could have made raiding into a m+ system to, but I recon that would be a bit weird.

I used to pug raid a whole lot before mythic raiding was a thing. With mythic raiding and m+ in the game, I barely do any raiding at all. I see the raid in LFR and MAYBE join a pug now and then, maaaybe. But most of the time I do m+ runs.

Ask yourself - how many do m+ compared to mythic raiding?

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I got super nervous when my Guild Leader put up a notice that M+ was required for the Mythic raiders. I got all +15s in season 1, and dont want to do it again. Sitting in sign up for 7 hours for 1 dungeon that might fail, I'm not going through that crap again. Luckily, enough people in the raid got geared enough that he didnt super enforce that rule.

M+ is not the problem here though, the mythic raid is. M+ is the tool to compete in mythic raids. Why not just remove mythic raids? Give same awards but in HC mode. Less stress on people to spam m+ ALOT.

and ofc dont reward m+ gear above HC level.

[Tyris Flare]

yeh no its kinda hard to leave it along when it rewards gear which is kinda necessary for raiding, you try doing mythic raiding being 10-15 ilvl behind every1 else because you did no m+ because you dont enjoy it, i tried and it failed, the participation levels are only as high as they are because its a gearing system, those levels would drop way down if gear was removed, i felt and still feel forced to do it in order to raid mythic.

i got a idea if you want to keep the gear in mythic+ cap the mythic+ vault at hc loot so that mythic raider dont feel that that they to touch m+ to keep up

Making mythic raiding, the mode with the lowest participation, more mandatory.

Not going to happen. That ship has sailed. The best thing to ask for is more alternative gearing routes, not removing existing popular game modes

[Gestopft]

I personally can't stand Mythic+ people are totally toxic in that mode, if the slightest thing goes wrong it ends in arguments and wasted time/keys.

I PuG at least a dozen keys a week, and I find that this only becomes an issue once you're higher than +15 and past the max gear rewards.

[Thaneo]

What if you just were happy with what you found fun and engaging rather then tearing down endgame for other people?

Why is the default we have to make everything easier rather then people learning how to reign in their own ego and just being happy?

[thunderdragon2]

I would vager most people pug m+. Either alone or with a couple of friends/guildies and fill in the last spots with randoms. I'd suggest just removing mythic raiding and have LFR, normal & HC. That would make raiding more pug friendly were you could join random grps and obtain good gear from raiding.

The power creep would also not be as huge if 1 difficulty is removed. Also, very few do mythic raiding compared to anything else in this game. One could have made raiding into a m+ system to, but I recon that would be a bit weird.

I used to pug raid a whole lot before mythic raiding was a thing. With mythic raiding and m+ in the game, I barely do any raiding at all. I see the raid in LFR and MAYBE join a pug now and then, maaaybe. But most of the time I do m+ runs.

Ask yourself - how many do m+ compared to mythic raiding?

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M+ is not the problem here though, the mythic raid is. M+ is the tool to compete in mythic raids. Why not just remove mythic raids? Give same awards but in HC mode. Less stress on people to spam m+ ALOT.

and ofc dont reward m+ gear above HC level.

id rather just remove the need to farm m+ for gear atall as i said only reason alot of people do m+ is its a spamable source of gear, if we remove mythic raiding then we must all reduce the level of gear form m+ otherwise no1 would bother raiding that's why you cant get mythic raid gear form + outside the vault not to mention the fact its "more accessible"" tho there are too many stupid requirements put n ppl to do certain activities in this game.

want to do the raid on hc but dont have curve on a new decently geared toon? tough as no 1 seems to care about ur mains exp
want to do a m+ 15 on you 1800 alt while you got 2100 on main? tough as no 1 cares about ur mains exp
want to do anything dungeon or raid related to try and increase ur ilvl once your in a reasonable place? tough as people would rather take a 250 then help some1.

people only seem to enjoy the easy route to gearing wither it be m+ or raiding if you remove mythic and put mythic gear in hc then blizzzard would just cap the gear from m+ at what ever level comes out of normal.

- - - Updated - - -

Making mythic raiding, the mode with the lowest participation, more mandatory.

Not going to happen. That ship has sailed. The best thing to ask for is more alternative gearing routes, not removing existing popular game modes

its better than making the toxic cesspool that is m+ mandatory, i never said anything about removing 1 if they only do m+ why do they need mythic raid quality gear from vault?