Sylvanas. Dev vs Dev on lore.

[Syegfryed]

All Sylvanas knows is that there's a means to propagate more Val'kyr, why this is a positive for her and her race is a given, but the main gig I was getting at is less that Odyn is on the same moral wavelength as she is, though he is, but that neither based on the information available at the time or what we'd go on to learn would her actions be unjustifiable from the perspective of benefitting the faction she's a head and the Helya/Odyn conflict is perennial to the objective of fighting the Scourge.

stormheim happens way after the heroes joined the classhalls, so she, as head of the faction should know about.

Also, while Blizzard doesn't feature them because that'd require giving the orcs screentime against their main nemesis we're told later on that the Horde was fighting the Legion throughout so we can assume they didn't sit on its ass for the extent of the conflict.

The factions did fight the Legion, in their places, but we know it was saurfang who lead in durotar/kalindor defenses, they sure didn't sit on their ass, but Sylvanas did next to nothing to hold her speech in vol'jin funeral.

It's not a red flag in as much as it's how the state was founded as far back as the RTS. The Forsaken have a pretty transparent group-based morality. It's why nobody cares that Stillwater experimented on humans but the second they see that he's zombifying other Forsaken he's slated for permadeath. It's a transactional viewpoint. As regards Eyir, i've already made the case for why even if that weren't the case any leader who knows that her and her people's fate is to go to turbo hell would not only be justified but morally obligated to prevent it, especially if the means hinge on enslaving a third party.

Yes, but in the RTs they didn't joined the horde, when they did, there should be a line to not be crossed by definition. Horde don't care about silverpine or other humans experiments because they don't know, its not their problem, the problem is when this dynamic is shifted, putting sylvanas and the forsaken on the spotlight would put those things on the light, and the imaginary line will be crossed, and thats why we had some of the interactions in BfA(like rokhan and Talanji regarding sylvanas actions) was a matter of wait for things to blow up, they just blow up in atomically.

Like i said, even if enslaving Eyr should be good for her and the forsaken, is a problem when affects the horde and/or put the horde in a bad light.

Sylvanas warchief was DOA, if she didn't step down from the position it was a matter of time before she going full villain, exactly to do what you said, escape turbo hell, and how she does this? exterminating her enemies, that in the end, will mean, exterminate the horde as well because their innate difference

[Khaza-R]

When one person says it sure.
But when there is 3 major figures. Tali, red shirt guy, and an actual voice actor at blizz all supporting it, on-top of other content creators confirming they have heard the same...

Conversely their source could and probably is the same person. And we are hinging it on them being truthfully.

[FelPlague]

Conversely their source could and probably is the same person. And we are hinging it on them being truthfully.

as tali says in the video, multiple people came forward with the same stories.

yeah a few people could all work together to spin a story, but that is the question, if there is any place its untrue, its those employees, not the one reporting on it.

[Raisei]

As regards the rest of the post especially regarding your own flip on the story, I agree and posted my thoughts as regards some reactions that could've been done to better smooth the Forsaken's perception in and out of their story earlier in the thread, largely hinging on Cataclysm's mistakes with Alliance content. I've been pretty transparent that I find BFA a lot more galling than SL and that much of the reaction hinges on people who've been willing to swallow some truly execrable out of character storytelling when it serves to eliminate elements of the setting they dislike (the Forsaken, all Horde institutions etc.) are chafing now that the bad writing gun has taken aim at parts of the story they do actually appreciate.

I still have real trouble seeing this out-of-character behaviour for Sylvanas in BFA. She has been willing to do extremely evil shit all the time whenever she wanted something out of it. She had goals and those goals were usually either her own self-preservation (which included maintaining the Forsaken as her arrows and shield) or before that her vengeance on Arthas. It is made abundantly clear that she will cross any line to reach these goals. She is clearly a sociopath without any emotional compulsions, except rage and jealously. That is why she can make the decisions she made.

In BFA her goal (then at least) was to break the Nelfs spirit so that they would not be a threat to her anymore (I am 100% convinced that she considered the Horde just like the Forsaken as nothing but tools for her self-preservation). She tried to first murder Malfurion (and a copious amount of other Nelfs on the way) as a big symbol for them. When Saurfang decided he suddenly wasn't up for cowardly murdering anymore, she decided to slaughter their civilians. All of this makes perfect sense if you are a completely amoral sociopath like our Banshee Kween. So where is the out-of-character stuff?

On the contrary I consider the SLs Sylvanas with her remorseful glances at Anduin and hestitation completely and glaringly out-of-character because she has done so much worse and never so much as batted an eye. In fact at several occasions she showed sadistic pleasure in the painful deaths of others. Her goal here is remaking the universe to be fairer or whatever and she is apparently stupid enough that she believes the Jailer when he says that he will do that.
So we have a Sylvanas that is stupid and suddenly has trouble crossing some lines. None of this has ever before been shown or even hinted at. It's a 180 degree turn of the character with the glaringly obvious goal of making it easier to swallow when she redeems herself and everyone embraces her back into the Horde.

So yes, I do chafe at the idea of a clearly evil character that has been commiting evil deeds through the entirety of its existance suddenly becoming good because Danuser can't accept her as the character she is and apply to her the consequences that any other character with such a ledger full of red would receive.

Basically by the "logic" Danuser is applying here we should have spared Kil'jaeden (and all the other Eredar) since they snarfed too much Fel and can't be held responsible anymore. How oh how could we hold him responsible for the billions of lives he snuffed out? We are the real monsters here!

This is the lesson Shadowlands is trying to impart and it sickens me.

Luckily we won't get our dirty fingers on Innocent Sylvanas. Danuser will protect her... gawd....

[Feanoro]

why on the earth i should playing an hero when playing a forsaken? i wanted to be just a sociopathic and transhumanist zombie, thats all.
why projecting on forsaken player all that bullshit?

You misunderstand me. You want to play an evil undead, great, have fun! You fully acknowledge it.

The problem is more the people with a weird hangup about playing evil characters. They enjoy it, but feel guilty as if it makes them a bad person, so they lash out at anyone who suggests their characters/organizations are evil and insist they're heroes.

This can be directly observed in this forum, over and over again.

[Ersula]

I mean, in normal circumstances, i could make blind eye, just like we did in the past, for other reasons, cause that is the gig with forsaken right? doing moral questionable things and since nobody know about/fully know about we just turn a blind eye because the alliance of necessity and fuck the alliance cause common enemies right? that was our merry dynamic that we liked.

Okay but you're trying to explain how this was all part of the same story with Shadowlands, when we never even got a clear explanation to what she was doing here. And it makes very little sense with what we see in Shadowlands:

We see helya making all the valkyr she could possibly need in the Maw. The only way the Stormheim story makes sense with the Shadowlands story is if she was trying to take control of herself away from Jailer. We have to infer if Genn didn't stop her, Teldrassil probably wouldn't have happened. That seems like a good motive, not evil.

The thing people don't appreciate about the story is that Sylvanas always wanted to die: It was the Jailer preventing that from happening.

[Dzonathan]

The thing people don't appreciate about the story is that Sylvanas always wanted to die: It was brand milking preventing that from happening.

fixed

/10char

[bagina]

You misunderstand me. You want to play an evil undead, great, have fun! You fully acknowledge it.

The problem is more the people with a weird hangup about playing evil characters. They enjoy it, but feel guilty as if it makes them a bad person, so they lash out at anyone who suggests their characters/organizations are evil and insist they're heroes.

This can be directly observed in this forum, over and over again.

From what I've seen it's the opposite. People claim you're a bad person because you enjoy playing Forsaken. What Forsaken players don't want is to be branded as villains of the story. Forsaken can be evil but I don't want them to be the villains, that's an uneven dynamic. One side has to lose eventually and it's usually "the bad side" because "good" characters are always stronger apparently.

[Traveler Voltin]

so we have a lawsuit that tells us that Blizzard is a toxic place to work with people abusing their power over others.

yet people cant believe 1 person would abuse is power to destroy the lore of WoW.
wtf.

[Feanoro]

From what I've seen it's the opposite. People claim you're a bad person because you enjoy playing Forsaken. What Forsaken players don't want is to be branded as villains of the story. Forsaken can be evil but I don't want them to be the villains, that's an uneven dynamic. One side has to lose eventually and it's usually "the good side" because "good" characters are always stronger apparently, which would suck for the other side.

I want to be absolutely clear that I am in no way attacking you. I suggest that we see differently simply due to different perspectives, specifically that you are a Forsaken player (or so I presume from all evidence) and would thus be more likely to notice what you've described, while I would be an outsider to that experience. I do have an undead lock for the usual reasons for playing the other side, but it's not my main and thus my view is different.

WoW's morality model is fairly straightforward, despite claims of grayness. You're evil? You're the villain. From my lock, there's rarely the "selfish bastard" motivation (i.e. I'm not doing this to help or be good, I'm doing it for the gold or convenience, etc) in questing or the like.

That said, I didn't limit it to Forsaken, the phenomenon of "enjoying evil characters makes me a bad person, so therefore those characters aren't evil" is widespread in the Horde playerbase. While I won't deny that those types have annoyed me to the point of being a bit vocal on it, at the end of the day, I feel sorry for them. Feeling guilty over what's ultimately harmless entertainment (or should be) is hardly healthy.

- - - Updated - - -

people cant believe 1 person would abuse is power to destroy the lore of WoW.wtf.

What people can't believe is:

- the claimed scope of the abuse of power, there would have been some checks and balances if only for "pissing off people isn't good business"

- the unspoken claim that the current team is helpless to correct the course once the supposed power abuser is no longer employed

[Magnagarde]

Yeah, I just talked to my very reputable top secret serious sources at Blizzard and they told me that it were in fact Rob Pardo, some dude who left Blizzard in 1997 and Obama who sabotaged the whole story of World of Warcraft.

My insider told me it was you George. We could've had lightsabers in Warcraft by now if it weren't for you!

[George Lucas]

My insider told me it was you George. We could've had lightsabers in Warcraft by now if it weren't for you!

Little do they know, I succeeded a long time ago.

[Syegfryed]

Okay but you're trying to explain how this was all part of the same story with Shadowlands, when we never even got a clear explanation to what she was doing here. And it makes very little sense with what we see in Shadowlands:

What do you mean? for all we know Sylvanas "pact" with helya introduced her to the janitor, not something that was going on since she killed herself in incecrown.

We see helya making all the valkyr she could possibly need in the Maw. The only way the Stormheim story makes sense with the Shadowlands story is if she was trying to take control of herself away from Jailer. We have to infer if Genn didn't stop her, Teldrassil probably wouldn't have happened. That seems like a good motive, not evil.

Why the hell the pact with helya was to take control of the Janitor away? this removes her gency and free will since Wc3?!?

The thing people don't appreciate about the story is that Sylvanas always wanted to die: It was the Jailer preventing that from happening.

And that is completely bullshit

[VladlTutushkin]

Okay but you're trying to explain how this was all part of the same story with Shadowlands, when we never even got a clear explanation to what she was doing here. And it makes very little sense with what we see in Shadowlands:

We see helya making all the valkyr she could possibly need in the Maw. The only way the Stormheim story makes sense with the Shadowlands story is if she was trying to take control of herself away from Jailer. We have to infer if Genn didn't stop her, Teldrassil probably wouldn't have happened. That seems like a good motive, not evil.

The thing people don't appreciate about the story is that Sylvanas always wanted to die: It was the Jailer preventing that from happening.

Well, what do you know, its her lucky day then.

[Mehrunes]

Why is she confident that she can screw over another being of at least equal power? She must be aware that if she angers Odyn, there is a chance that this much more powerful being turns against her and the Horde. It is a stupid decision and her motivation for this is as always just self-serving.

Because by that point Odyn had been locked in his asylum for millennia?

I will not believe for a second that she ever planned to share the Val'kyr with the Forsaken.

BtS makes it rather clear she did plan that.

There is also no explanation why Odyn doesn't murder her outright. Remember, he fuckin kills any Shadow Priest (that has proven themselves worthy through his trials!) without a second thought when they ask the wrong question. So the only reason why he let's Sylvanas live is because the writers are giving her plot armor, not because of any real reason. It's not that Odyn doesn't care, it's just that the writers keep protecting Sylvanas from the consequences of her deeds.

You forgot to mention the part where that same Odyn decided to give Skovald an extra chance to get the Aegis even though he proved himself unworthy in the final trial because we beat him to the punch and had to cheat through all trials on top of that. Even though the Aegis falling into Skovald's hands would have outright doomed Azeroth, which ran contrary to Odyn's entire job description.

And that he merrily aided both sides in the Forsaien-Worgen fighting just because there was Valor to be had.

It's almost as if Odyn was a deranged lunatic with no consistency to his actions, because the only force driving him was whatever passed for VALOR to him at any given moment.

Plus, again, he was locked away at the time and had no way of even spitting in Sylvanas' face, let alone murdering her like he did the Shadow Priests.

[Raisei]

Because by that point Odyn had been locked in his asylum for millennia?

Does Odyn strike you as the kind of Titan Keeper that will just shrug and forget this after he was freed? Really? The guy that is still so pissed about Loken that mentioning him makes him kill you?
And yes he definately knew it had happened, since his underlings in the Halls of Valor knew and clearly considered all of us dishonorable because of Sylvanas actions, not to mention that he was more or less running around Stormheim anyway in the guise of Havy.

BtS makes it rather clear she did plan that.

Oh you mean the same BTS that you and many others keep ripping apart and deny it's validity because much of Sylvanas internal dialogue makes no friggin sense after her "actual" goals are revealed.
The thing with Sylvanas is that she is simply not of a sound mind. She is absolutely capable of making herself believe that she would do that before the time comes, and then she realizes that sharing power is not something she is comfortable with.

Very much like she had at first no problem leaving the Forsaken alone in the Undercity with no one put in place to govern them, while she was sitting in Orgrimmar and only took an interest when she saw that a ruling body had been established without her direct consent and felt her power over her pets slip ever so slightly.

Sylvanas is EXTREMELY jealous about everything. Especially her personal power.

But even if this would not be the case and she would share the power, it's still the wrong to evaluate this as some kind of benevolent act. After all, her drooling minions make even better shields and arrows when they are immortal, the benefit to the Forsaken themselves is purely accidental. Also, she would never give them immortality without having a tool to still kill them herself. Especially with the amount of Forsaken stabbing her in the back.

You forgot to mention the part where that same Odyn decided to give Skovald an extra chance to get the Aegis even though he proved himself unworthy in the final trial because we beat him to the bunch and had to cheat through all trials on top of that's. Even though the Aegis falling into Skovald's hands would have outright doomed Azeroth.

I never saw this. I saw Skovald come in and Odyn told him that he was too late and we had been awarded the Aegis. Then he tried to kill us for the Aegis and failed. Never once does Odyn say that he would let him keep the Aegis even if he would prove able to kill us. If you expected Odyn to just kill him for us and steal our chance at even more Valor then you misunderstand the character. He knew we would win and didn't want to kill steal, that is all.

And that he merrily aided both sides in the Forsaien-Worgen fighting just because there was Valor to be had.

Sure he did. He likes Valor and fighting for Valor. Why would he not enjoy the fighting that was happening anyway. He did after all also give Horde folks the chance at the Aegis. He doesn't judge a group because of one individual, but that doesn't change the fact that this one individual would get a hard smiting for that dishonorable act. Heck, he might even have accepted Sylvanas if she had fought Eyir fairly instead of using a magic trinket to enslave her like a coward.

On top of that the fact that Sylvanas worked with Helya, who Odyn HATES... yeah... no way she would still be alive without a thick plot shield.

[Asrialol]

Woah woah, we can't have someone else than Danuser be a scapegoat for the Sylvanas writing. People on this forum will not accept that.

I haven't read every page here but I assume someone has made, or will make, a claim that "obviously Danuser was on the same page as Alex here, hurrdurr". Lmao, this site.

[Feanoro]

I haven't read every page here but I assume

Yes, that's about what we figure every time you contribute "you guys suck, you just blame poor Danuser" to a topic. Never see you say another blessed word in any topic about the story other than to complain that people aren't lapping up whatever is shit out, but man let someone mention the Cringecaller and you come running.

[Asrialol]

Yes, that's about what we figure every time you contribute "you guys suck, you just blame poor Danuser" to a topic. Never see you say another blessed word in any topic about the story other than to complain that people aren't lapping up whatever is shit out, but man let someone mention the Cringecaller and you come running.

Oh I never complain, I merely point out how amusing you people are. Imagine having such strong emotions for some guy they think is to blame for stuff they don't like, in a game they can't stop playing/thinking about/spending time on.

[Feanoro]

Oh I never complain, I merely point out how amusing you people are.

Careful with that reply, it's an antique.

Imagine having such strong emotions for some guy they think is to blame for stuff they don't like

Yes, oddly enough, when you're in charge of something and it goes to shit, people blame you. Even stranger, this concept has a word, "responsibility". Finally, if you can believe it, it's a concept going back beyond recorded history.

in a game they can't stop playing/thinking about/spending time on.

Quit BFA when Classic came out, quit altogether when The Burning Cashshop came out. Only here to see if there's any news of the dumpster fire being put out.

You haven't addressed how you never post here except to "be amused" when Danuser is being criticized. Of course, your post history suggests that defensive behavior isn't limited to him. Might want to make a few posts to camouflage your purpose.