"Catering to 5% of your player base will leave you with 5% of your player base"

[rrayy]

How the fuck is player housing Anti-Social? They could do it like FF or other games do it where players can easily go to each other's houses and have a guild hall if they wanted. Could be a secondary market for creating/buying/selling things for your house. It doesn't have to be anti-social.

Garrisons allowed players to go into other people gartrisons. Nobody did that. People stay in their own instances by themselves. You are fooling yourself if you thiknk that won't happen again with player housing.

[czarek]

I'm very disappointed with whole announcement. No single world about casual and solo players.
Imo Ion again will focus on raiders and make ppl quit fast.

How and why u assume expac is focused on hard mode raiders ? I dont get it. No ONE said it and even mention it :P This xpac sounds more like soft and cozy, Rebuild primal bases like talents and UI. No more stupid grind systems. Dung and raids like they were. Prob some time gate for renown and that is simply it. They said islands are about exploration and fun soo that sound more like causal gaming than high end mythic grind.

[Flarelaine]

Garrisons allowed players to go into other people gartrisons. Nobody did that. People stay in their own instances by themselves.

Sadly correct.

Besides, garrisons lacked a core feature of player housing - cosmetic customization.

[Yayeet]

Sadly enough the reality is reversed.

They tune around raids, yet 80% of the playerbase doesn't even enter current raids.

Next failed thread incoming soon.

[chiddie]

Go on, present those numbers.

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Now if only there was a way to associate with other players, form a group, perhaps for the long term...

Without a fixed timetable you’ll always have to rely on pugs sooner or later, no matter how many “friends” you do have in-game.

[Celement]

Because 80% of the playerbase finds them too hard apparently

I remember in Legion I would pug normal and heroic raids multiple times a week on alts for fun and very rarely were there problems - people were able to very comfortably pug aotc within a week or two of a new raid, since BFA that's just not the reality anymore, pugging is unbearably bad and most of the game isn't in a structured raid guild - something changed and I don't think players got worse at the game

A lot of this happened from destroying gearing. I'm not sure if there are more bad players now or if the skill floor has increased drastically... I think it's the latter but a bigger issue with pugs is ilv inflation.

You can't tell players apart till roughly 270+ ilv already in the patch even then it is a bit of a coin flip. It's why raider io is required people are not geared according to their skill level.

[WowIsDead64]

Garrisons allowed players to go into other people gartrisons. Nobody did that. People stay in their own instances by themselves. You are fooling yourself if you thiknk that won't happen again with player housing.

I just don't understand that devs' desire to force players to go out to the world, appeared around MOP, when all that "remove flying" and "essences for profession can be obtained in outdoor only" appeared. I mean, I don't believe in "forced love". If players don't like to be out in the world, then forcing them to do it won't all of a sudden make them love it. This would be just illusion. Illusion for whom? For that small % of players, who wants to play "Big city at rush hour online"? I guess, it's another example of being stubborn, wallowing in misconceptions and designing game for just 5% of playerbase.

[Celement]

I just don't understand that devs' desire to force players to go out to the world, appeared around MOP, when all that "remove flying" and "essences for profession can be obtained in outdoor only" appeared. I mean, I don't believe in "forced love". If players don't like to be out in the world, then forcing them to do it won't all of a sudden make them love it. This would be just illusion. Illusion for whom? For that small % of players, who wants to play "Big city at rush hour online"? I guess, it's another example of being stubborn, wallowing in misconceptions and designing game for just 5% of playerbase.

People screaming they were casuals that only did queue content demanded the world matter more.

[chiddie]

Because 80% of the playerbase finds them too hard apparently

I remember in Legion I would pug normal and heroic raids multiple times a week on alts for fun and very rarely were there problems - people were able to very comfortably pug aotc within a week or two of a new raid, since BFA that's just not the reality anymore, pugging is unbearably bad and most of the game isn't in a structured raid guild - something changed and I don't think players got worse at the game

Or because they simply require too much TIME commitment. Dark Souls is hard, but you can play half an hour a day and if you’re good complete it. Will maybe take you 6 months but the difficulty is not a barrier. Time is.

For raids - and I don’t mean LFR - it’s the same. Many people just don’t have 3+ hours sessions 2-3 days a week to invest in playing a game. This does not mean they could not complete the content because they’re bad.

Yesterday I had a 30 minutes D3 session: surprise, I’ve been able to play and progress even with 30 minutes only.

Now you could say that if you don’t have time for huge sessions MMORPGS are not for me and you’re somehow right, but this is not related to difficulty in any manner.

Casuals’ main problem is time, not difficulty.

[Celement]

Or because they simply require too much TIME commitment. Dark Souls is hard, but you can play half an hour a day and if you’re good complete it. Will maybe take you 6 months but the difficulty is not a barrier. Time is.

For raids - and I don’t mean LFR - it’s the same. Many people just don’t have 3+ hours sessions 2-3 days a week to invest in playing a game. This does not mean they could not complete the content because they’re bad.

Yesterday I had a 30 minutes D3 session: surprise, I’ve been able to play and progress even with 30 minutes only.

Now you could say that if you don’t have time for huge sessions MMORPGS are not for me and you’re somehow right, but this is not related to difficulty in any manner.

Casuals’ main problem is time, not difficulty.

Then don't play a mmo or have different goals in it?

It's been 17 years the game can't constantly destroy itself to try and win back people who should of moved on by now.

[AcidicSyn]

Don't even bother. He just want to get acess to everything as solo player. Like seriously, M+ with bot healer/tank? How easy then it should be? Below HC dungeon? Or the Tank/Healer should be immortal?
Scenarios were in the game, fun once and then forget them. Maybe thats why Blizz don't bother with them anymore because the participation was low?

He just want a single player in WoW settings but thats not going to happen.

No no no.

*I* want a single player game in the WoW setting. Literally a brand new game, open world, single player, on Azeroth. It can even have its own canon, make it a splinter universe that starts from todays canon and then just go off in its own story. Something something the heroes never returned from the land of death and go. Let the MMO be the kind of MMO the players seem to want and I'll play the SPRPG (Though I do 100% agree, it's not gonna happen)

He seems to want something like Diablo, but in Warcraft, I think? He wants the other players to be there, but doesn't want to have to interact with them in any way I guess?

Granted, I think a solo progression path would be fun and I'd certainly play it. Wouldn't offend me back when I was regularly raiding either frankly. But it does seem to bug enough people that I'd rather there just be a separate single player WoW IP for those people.

[Kyanion]

Garrisons allowed players to go into other people gartrisons. Nobody did that. People stay in their own instances by themselves. You are fooling yourself if you thiknk that won't happen again with player housing.

If you understand how FF and other games do it the housing wouldn't be a solo house with nothing else around there would be other houses in your area that could have people. Yes there is the potential that there is no one else around but it isn't isolated all the time either. Housing is inevitable I think, it is how they implement it that will matter.

And there was reasons to go to other people's garrisons with invasions. No it wasn't a great thing but it was something that people were doing. Garrisons were a pretty badly done system as we all know, but there are lessons to be learned from them and how other games do housing.

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I always thought the funniest thing about that is that the M+/raiders almost literally get "Epics in mailbox" with their weekly vault rewards. Just for doing the content they do anyways the get free epics. But if they get those it's ok, of course, they deserve those.

You mean how if you also do LFR you get a box on Tuesday with gear to choose from?

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Besides, garrisons lacked a core feature of player housing - cosmetic customization.

Yup, garrisons were a flop. If they actually do housing and invest the time and resources into making something of quality that players can customize and upgrade or decorate then they might have something that will keep people engaged. Lord knows FF makes plenty of cash selling housing items on their cash shop and there are also plenty of in game things for the houses as well.

[Ashana Darkmoon]

It's been 17 years the game can't constantly destroy itself to try and win back people who should of moved on by now.

People cannot come to grips with this, it's pretty incredible. Products can't always change constantly to "win back" old customers if the price is losing newer ones.

[ellieg]

for doing the content

free epics.

You're so close to understanding lol. Its not free if you're doing something specifically to get it.

M+ epics are capped at 262, 3 ilvls below heroic raids. You can spend 2 weeks worth of valor to bring them up to 272 from 262.

Ppl do m+ specifically to get chances at 278 ilvl. Ppl don't really care at all abt the 262 gear. If you wanna go ahead and let 278s drop from m+ itself, sure remove the "free epics" from the vault. M+ers wldnt complain lol

[WowIsDead64]

People screaming they were casuals that only did queue content demanded the world matter more.

It's simple question. For what reason do people want to see crowds of other players out in the world? What is "utility" of such players? To steal mobs? To grey-tag them? To steal quest items? To cause sitting in a queue? To make game SLOWER? To cause exceeding respawn rates and turn game into nightmare for undergeared players, who barely can kill 1 mob and constantly respawning mobs are unbearable for them? No, they say, that they feel lonely, if there is no crowds of other players around. Lonely? I don't understand players, who feel lonely, when they don't SEE other players around. I would understand talking with other players or interacting some other way. But SEEING??? Man, this is insane. I guess, Blizzard should add anti-lonely bots to their game to make an illusion of crowded locations.

But truth is much more simple. Blizzard just try to make an illusion, that their game isn't dead. That's it.

[Aydinx2]

Casuals’ main problem is time, not difficulty.

You'd be shocked how many people put hours into the game and don't have Normal raid cleared. You'd be equally shocked how many people only log in for their guilds 2 weekly nights and then don't do anything else while they're progressing Mythic.

During CN almost nobody in the guild did M+. It was me and a few others who got KSM while the rest considered +8 to be pushing. But all of us still logged in to re-clear heroic and progress Mythic.

The issue isn't time. It's being willing to learn the fight and having a guild that lets you raid with them.

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It's simple question. For what reason do people want to see crowds of other players out in the world? What is "utility" of such players? To steal mobs? To grey-tag them? To steal quest items? To cause sitting in a queue? To make game SLOWER? To cause exceeding respawn rates and turn game into nightmare for undergeared players, who barely can kill 1 mob and constantly respawning mobs are unbearable for them? No, they say, that they feel lonely, if there is no crowds of other players around. Lonely? I don't understand players, who feel lonely, when they don't SEE other players around. I would understand talking with other players or interacting some other way. But SEEING??? Man, this is insane. I guess, Blizzard should add anti-lonely bots to their game to make an illusion of crowded locations.

But truth is much more simple. Blizzard just try to make an illusion, that their game isn't dead. That's it.

You managed to provide an entire list of possible arguments for why people like seeing others in an MMO and managed to be completely wrong with all of them.

Because it is an MMO and seeing a world filled with people is fun. Also thanks to phasing none of the things you named are an issue anymore.

[Mamut]

Who gave you the right to speak for me?

But this is how entitled you feel and this is exactly the kind of players that drive us away from WoW. Speak for yourself next time. Funny how scared you are of my opinion though. I can feel you shaking in agony “omg someone might do something that people other than myself will enjoy”.

Worry not, it fits blizzard to have boosters and their clients. Though you seem like a client to me.

Hard to be a client when I'm now usnubbed for few months. You are the one entitled that think Blizz is bad because they don't follow your imagination about making MMO a solo game.
I either enjoy the game and play if I have time or don't and just move on. I'm not coming to a forum demanding things that doesn't fit the game then complain why noone is listening to me.

[Huehuecoyotl]

For me, the biggest issue with WoW is that it feels like the Red Queens race. Constantly having to go flat out just to stay where you are. This notion that every few months you have to push new content that effectively makes the previous content (and the gear related to it) utterly redundant means that eventually I start to feel like I'm wasting my time. Why work to get that gear, when you know if you do nothing for a few months they'll be catch up mechanics that mean your be gear will be back to the "current" level anyway?

Once you start to think like that, it's a small step to "well, why bother to do any of it?"

I play GW2 these days. But I had a LONG break of multiple years where I stopped. When I came back, my gear was still fine. And I had several years worth of content that is still relevant, still at a certain level of difficulty, that I could work through. My time feels valued by the game; if I spend time doing something, it will be relevant to the standing of my character, and it won't be undermined by a patch that drops in a weeks time.

I also stepped away from WoW for a good number of years. All that content they released is utterly pointless. Any gear I had that I'd worked towards was laughably redundant. I could do the old content, but on a solo basis, with either no difficulty (because gear makes it trivial) or impossible difficulty (because mechanics make it impossible to solo). There should be a wealth of content that I can dive into, but there isn't because their model is to make everthing that goes before pointless with every patch.

No development team in the world can keep up with that model. It's insane on the face of it. If there is a single change that Blizzard need to make, it's to step away from this notion the current content is the only content that matters. And it only matters as long as it's current. They need to make two moves, in my opinion; to work towards reestablishing old content of all kinds as being relevant and rewarding to max level characters. And to move towards a model where the content through an expansion doesn't invalidate what comes before it.

But that's just me. Other people have different ideas what's wrong, and different ideas of how to fix it. But as long as Blizzard cater to one specific playstyle, with one defined (and outdated) content model, there will be a lot of people looking at that and saying "not for me". And no amount of tweaks to UIs, new race or new classes can bring all those people back.

[Celement]

People cannot come to grips with this, it's pretty incredible. Products can't always change constantly to "win back" old customers if the price is losing newer ones.

It isn't even winning newer ones it's just losing more current ones.

[LedZeppelin]

It's simple question. For what reason do people want to see crowds of other players out in the world? What is "utility" of such players? To steal mobs? To grey-tag them? To steal quest items? To cause sitting in a queue? To make game SLOWER? To cause exceeding respawn rates and turn game into nightmare for undergeared players, who barely can kill 1 mob and constantly respawning mobs are unbearable for them? No, they say, that they feel lonely, if there is no crowds of other players around. Lonely? I don't understand players, who feel lonely, when they don't SEE other players around. I would understand talking with other players or interacting some other way. But SEEING??? Man, this is insane. I guess, Blizzard should add anti-lonely bots to their game to make an illusion of crowded locations.

But truth is much more simple. Blizzard just try to make an illusion, that their game isn't dead. That's it.

With the sheer stupidity of this post i am almost entirely sure that you are a paid shill because no one would actually write something so stupid for free. Its a fucking MMO. Wow is not a single player game.