The night warrior arc had no purpose, right?

[Aresk]

Prove it.

Show me when anyone ever cried or at least lamented the mass slaughter of murlocs, and when a murloc mass murderer was put on trial.

King Mrgl-Mrgl for the former. As for trials, aside from Garrosh and Lucinda, I can't recall anyone who has been put on trial (and both of those were shams); that doesn't mean everyone else's actions are condoned. Additionally, Sir Finley Mrrgglton has shown that murlocs are just as capable as other races in terms of intellect and adventuring, and Murgulis has shown murlocs are capable of completing the rites required to become a demon hunter.

[VladlTutushkin]

Theramore was a legitimate military target as it was the largest naval base the Alliance had. I guess by your logic, the Alliance player is complicit in the burning of citizens of Camp Taurajo. The Alliance player is complicit and even aided in Genn Greymane committing a war crime.

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Theramore wasn't genocide. Look up the definition of genocide before throwing the word around. Teldrassil ALSO wasn't genocide, by definition. Enough with the hyperbolic statements.

Well Horde cant shut up about Taurajo even when they themselves destroyed four Alliance towns in Cata and with far worse methods so... you know, not really a good argument.

[TheRevenantHero]

Well Horde cant shut up about Taurajo even when they themselves destroyed four Alliance towns in Cata and with far worse methods so... you know, not really a good argument.

It's not a competition. The point I'm making is that Alliance fans perpetually act like the Alliance has never committed a single atrocity.

[VladlTutushkin]

It's not a competition. The point I'm making is that Alliance fans perpetually act like the Alliance has never committed a single atrocity.

Its a difference between "never committed" and "constantly committed". Also Taurajo only became a tragedy because Alliance general had no idea quillboars migrated deeper into Horde territory and druids fucked up in Howling caverns and created Overgrowth. Otherwise most of those tauren would have survived.

You comparing a battle where general left an opening for the civilians so wide his advisor almost got a heart attack from how much it endangered the battle lines and was mad about it for a while...

With three different battles perpetrated by the Horde at the same time, where Horde troops hunted civilians on purpose, pursued them sometimes over the whole zone and sought to entirely eradicated them while either leaving corpses to rot as a "message" or used necromancy to make them into forsaken.

A bad comparison if anything. Alliance one ended up as massacre because of a mistake, Horde was done on purpose and went FAR beyond just "military operation". Hunting down civilians is obviously a war crime. Not to mention various forms of corpse desecration and use of WMDs.

[Varodoc]

King Mrgl-Mrgl for the former. As for trials, aside from Garrosh and Lucinda, I can't recall anyone who has been put on trial (and both of those were shams); that doesn't mean everyone else's actions are condoned. Additionally, Sir Finley Mrrgglton has shown that murlocs are just as capable as other races in terms of intellect and adventuring, and Murgulis has shown murlocs are capable of completing the rites required to become a demon hunter.

What Elwynn Forest has also shown us is that murlocs are bloodthirsty and savage animals who have no problem butchering human guards on patrol until only a few meaty remains are left.

[TheRevenantHero]

Its a difference between "never committed" and "constantly committed". Also Taurajo only became a tragedy because Alliance general had no idea quillboars migrated deeper into Horde territory and druids fucked up in Howling caverns and created Overgrowth. Otherwise most of those tauren would have survived.

You comparing a battle where general left an opening for the civilians so wide his advisor almost got a heart attack from how much it endangered the battle lines and was mad about it for a while...

With three different battles perpetrated by the Horde at the same time, where Horde troops hunted civilians on purpose, pursued them sometimes over the whole zone and sought to entirely eradicated them while either leaving corpses to rot as a "message" or used necromancy to make them into forsaken.

A bad comparison if anything. Alliance one ended up as massacre because of a mistake, Horde was done on purpose and went FAR beyond just "military operation". Hunting down civilians is obviously a war crime. Not to mention various forms of corpse desecration and use of WMDs.

The Alliance literally burned innocent Tauren citizens to death. You can actually go there in game right now and see their corpses. So driving those who didn't burn into quillboar territory made it worse, especially because the Alliance absolutely knew they were driving tauren into quillboar territory.

If we're going to count using necromancy as an atrocity, then the Alliance is also guilty as Magister Umbric used the Void to reanimate Zandalari corpses and turned them against their own people.

Saying that Taurajo happened because of a "mistake" is exceptionally wrong and just does nothing but further prove my point so I appreciate that.

[Aucald]

Remind me when the "murloc genocide" occurred at the hands of the Alliance?

Meanwhile, I'll remind you when two well-known genocides occurred at the hands of the Horde.

Genocide of Theramore Humans -> Start of MoP

Genocide of Alliance Kaldorei -> Start of BfA

When did this "Murloc genocide" you speak of occur?

I didn't claim one did occur, at either the hands of the Horde or the Alliance. I merely rebutted your claim that it wouldn't be of consequence if it did, or that it was somehow "lesser" than the genocide of another sentient and sapient species. Also, Theramore wasn't a genocide - it was mass murder, to be sure, but the conflict doesn't really satisfy the criteria of genocide. Teldrassil would be a better example of genocide, in my view, but that's also neither here nor there. Your personal biases aside, there's no such thing as a "lesser" or immaterial genocide, whether you're talking Murlocs or Kobolds.

[Varodoc]

I didn't claim one did occur, at either the hands of the Horde or the Alliance. I merely rebutted your claim that it wouldn't be of consequence if it did, or that it was somehow "lesser" than the genocide of another sentient and sapient species. Also, Theramore wasn't a genocide - it was mass murder, to be sure, but the conflict doesn't really satisfy the criteria of genocide. Teldrassil would be a better example of genocide, in my view, but that's also neither here nor there. Your personal biases aside, there's no such thing as a "lesser" or immaterial genocide, whether you're talking Murlocs or Kobolds.

Teldrassil is directly stated to have been a genocide in a novel.

Theramore was an independent city-state that was blown up in its entirety. Garrosh deliberately waited to drop the nuke until all the defenders gathered inside the city walls. He wanted to kill everyone. Many of its surviving citizens (those who were caught) were rounded up in Orgrimmar and either executed or treated like animals for the amusement of orcs, their only "crime" being that nationally they came from Theramore. He was directly accused of "genocide" by the Pandaren Celestials at his trial. Sounds like a genocide to me.

There are consequences for those who mass slaughter humans (Garrosh) and elves (Sylvanas). There are no consequences for those that mass slaughter murlocs. What does this tell you?

[VladlTutushkin]

The Alliance literally burned innocent Tauren citizens to death. You can actually go there in game right now and see their corpses. So driving those who didn't burn into quillboar territory made it worse, especially because the Alliance absolutely knew they were driving tauren into quillboar territory.

If we're going to count using necromancy as an atrocity, then the Alliance is also guilty as Magister Umbric used the Void to reanimate Zandalari corpses and turned them against their own people.

Saying that Taurajo happened because of a "mistake" is exceptionally wrong and just does nothing but further prove my point so I appreciate that.

"Absolutely knew" not at all. Alliance had no idea there were quillboars. Well they knew quillboars lived on Kalimdor and in the Barrens but they didnt knew they were in the area so close to the road.

Also... you dont find it hilarious how Horde finds time to massacre and hunt civilians but never bothered to genocide quillboars and make their heartland safe from them?

Also Alliance quest information clearly speaks about civilians fleeing, and only THEN the bombing started. A few who we find (three or so as far as i remember from spirit summoning quest there?) may have stayed behind like that flightmaster for example.

Also Umbric used necromancy on ANIMALS, aka the raptors and a t-rex, its different from using it on sentient people.

And appreciate it all you like, it does not make you less wrong.

And Alliance even went as far as punish the troops who went to maraud in the burned village, while Horde never, not once in its whole history bothered to discipline its troops in same way. If anything they seem to encourage looting and taking spoils.

[Varodoc]

Also Umbric used necromancy on ANIMALS, aka the raptors and a t-rex, its different from using it on sentient people.

In addition to this, it is unclear if Umbric actually had the power to pull the souls of those animals from Ardenweald back into their corpses, or if he was just puppeteering their corpses like empty shells.

If it's the latter, then Umbric quite frankly did nothing wrong.

[TheRevenantHero]

"Absolutely knew" not at all. Alliance had no idea there were quillboars. Well they knew quillboars lived on Kalimdor and in the Barrens but they didnt knew they were in the area so close to the road.

Also... you dont find it hilarious how Horde finds time to massacre and hunt civilians but never bothered to genocide quillboars and make their heartland safe from them?

Also Alliance quest information clearly speaks about civilians fleeing, and only THEN the bombing started. A few who we find (three or so as far as i remember from spirit summoning quest there?) may have stayed behind like that flightmaster for example.

Also Umbric used necromancy on ANIMALS, aka the raptors and a t-rex, its different from using it on sentient people.

And appreciate it all you like, it does not make you less wrong.

And Alliance even went as far as punish the troops who went to maraud in the burned village, while Horde never, not once in its whole history bothered to discipline its troops in same way. If anything they seem to encourage looting and taking spoils.

All right well you are clearly incapable of speaking about this in good faith so I'm not going to bother anymore. Again, thank you for 100% helping to prove my point.Nothing I've said has been incorrect. Just because you want to spout revisionist lore doesn't make me wrong.

[Feanoro]

It's not a competition. The point I'm making is that Alliance fans perpetually act like the Alliance has never committed a single atrocity.

And like you were told by multiple people the last five times you made this "point" is that Alliance fans talk about scope, quantity, and intention, not whether or not actions occurred.

I fully expect you to ignore this yet again, so that's all the keystrokes I'm giving you.

@VladlTutushkin Anything you say will magically somehow prove his point. Trust me, not the first time I've seen that show. You'll know though you've "won" when the rage about "you're telling Horde players what to feel!" starts.

@Varodoc My understanding is that it was just animating bones with Void, no souls involved. Void telekinesis, effectively.

[VladlTutushkin]

All right well you are clearly incapable of speaking about this in good faith so I'm not going to bother anymore. Again, thank you for 100% helping to prove my point.Nothing I've said has been incorrect. Just because you want to spout revisionist lore doesn't make me wrong.

Point it out where the Alliance general knew about quillboars and sent the gauren into an ambush on purpose.

He was overly nice to the enemy, all things considered. Sort of “noble” type unlike his advisor who was more practical and wanted to just crush the camp and move on.

Most of what you said was incorrect.

And you again proven nothing but the fact that you are only looking for a gotcha moment, cant find it honestly and so settle for empty accusations and gaslighting.

And as Feanoro said - talking about one massacre that happened due to bad intel and comparing it to three massacres that happened intentionally and with a goal of exterminating population during war is not a good look for you.

[Varodoc]

The ironic thing about General Hawthorne is that he was harshly criticized by Alliance High Command, because he intentionally undermined his troops' march and left a gap in his flanks to allow as many Tauren as possible to escape.

Even when the Alliance commits an "atrocity" (reminder that Camp Taurajo, unlike Theramore, wasn't a sprawling port city, but a very small hunting camp), they still can't help themselves and have to be nice to the enemy.

[TheRevenantHero]

Point it out where the Alliance general knew about quillboars and sent the gauren into an ambush on purpose.

He was overly nice to the enemy, all things considered. Sort of “noble” type unlike his advisor who was more practical and wanted to just crush the camp and move on.

Most of what you said was incorrect.

And you again proven nothing but the fact that you are only looking for a gotcha moment, cant find it honestly and so settle for empty accusations and gaslighting.

And as Feanoro said - talking about one massacre that happened due to bad intel and comparing it to three massacres that happened intentionally and with a goal of exterminating population during war is not a good look for you.

I'm not even going to look at what Feanoro said because there's a reason I have him on ignore. Much like you, he is exceptionally dishonest and posts a lot of revisionist lore in topics like this. The Alliance was stationed in the Barrens for quite a bit before putting Camp Taurajo to the torch. So either the Alliance knew about the quillboars or they were the biggest fucking idiots ever. Either way, the Alliance was wrong for what they did. And if you think burning tauren civilians alive is "nice" then that's pretty alarming.

War is all about exterminating populations. Do I condone it? Absolutely not. And I'm going to say it again and read it very very slowly if you need to: My point is that Alliance fans act like the Alliance has NEVER committed atrocities. This isn't about me defending the Horde. This is about me pointing out how hypocritical Alliance fans are.

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The ironic thing about General Hawthorne is that he was harshly criticized by Alliance High Command, because he intentionally undermined his troops' march and left a gap in his flanks to allow as many Tauren as possible to escape.

Even when the Alliance commits an "atrocity" (reminder that Camp Taurajo, unlike Theramore, wasn't a sprawling trade city, but a very small hunting camp), they still can't help themselves and have to be nice to the enemy.

Considering you think genociding an entire sentient race that has its own culture and language is justified, you have absolutely no leg to stand on.

[Varodoc]

I'm not even going to look at what Feanoro said because there's a reason I have him on ignore. Much like you, he is exceptionally dishonest and posts a lot of revisionist lore in topics like this. The Alliance was stationed in the Barrens for quite a bit before putting Camp Taurajo to the torch. So either the Alliance knew about the quillboars or they were the biggest fucking idiots ever. Either way, the Alliance was wrong for what they did. And if you think burning tauren civilians alive is "nice" then that's pretty alarming.

War is all about exterminating populations. Do I condone it? Absolutely not. And I'm going to say it again and read it very very slowly if you need to: My point is that Alliance fans act like the Alliance has NEVER committed atrocities. This isn't about me defending the Horde. This is about me pointing out how hypocritical Alliance fans are.

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Considering you think genociding an entire sentient race that has its own culture and language is justified, you have absolutely no leg to stand on.

Camp Taurajo in-universe isn't considered an "atrocity".

Canonically Tauren leader Baine Bloodhoof stated that Camp Taurajo made itself a legitimate military target, by training hunters and troops on the borders of Theramore. Thus, the Alliance was justified in destroying it.

Baine Bloodhoof even exiled to Vendetta Point those tauren who were so blinded by pointless hatred that they could not be reasoned with.

People disagree with you when you claim Camp Taurajo was a stain on the Alliance reputation because the story proves you wrong. The story paints the Alliance as correct in believing that Taurajo had to be removed (the story supports the Alliance's actions via the word of Baine Bloodhoof), and paints the denizens of Vendetta Point as stubborn rebels that had to be exiled from Mulgore, as they endangered Baine's beliefs and leadership.

[Chrinas]

After reading through the comments.. I just wanna clarify this one thing that I haven't seen mentioned yet. Its said many times that Elune did NOTHING while the tree burned. Well, she did in fact do something :

Elune made all the elves fall asleep, to ease their suffering. What a nice Lady.

[VladlTutushkin]

I'm not even going to look at what Feanoro said because there's a reason I have him on ignore. Much like you, he is exceptionally dishonest and posts a lot of revisionist lore in topics like this. The Alliance was stationed in the Barrens for quite a bit before putting Camp Taurajo to the torch. So either the Alliance knew about the quillboars or they were the biggest fucking idiots ever. Either way, the Alliance was wrong for what they did. And if you think burning tauren civilians alive is "nice" then that's pretty alarming.

War is all about exterminating populations. Do I condone it? Absolutely not. And I'm going to say it again and read it very very slowly if you need to: My point is that Alliance fans act like the Alliance has NEVER committed atrocities. This isn't about me defending the Horde. This is about me pointing out how hypocritical Alliance fans are.

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Considering you think genociding an entire sentient race that has its own culture and language is justified, you have absolutely no leg to stand on.

War is not about exterminating populations, at least if you are not a psychopath. Occupying the land, forcing population to submit to your rule and then integrating them as citizens (or second grade citizens, or colonial serfs or anything) usually is the goal.

Because then you have both land and workers to work it who were doing it before and know how things done there.

And yes, letting your enemy civilians escape to the point where it endangers your operation IS overly nice.

And again - they knew quillboars lived in the Barrens, but they didnt knew that tribe moved close to the road after Cataclysm.

And would you kindly stop with unfounded accusations? I would phrase it differently but admin will blow a fuse and ban me over insulting your feelings.

And i will respond again, very patiently: i do not dent the fact that Taurajo ended up as a massacre. But it happened because AS YOU SAID YOURSELF Alliance commander was AN IDIOT with bad intel.

Meanwhile Horde commits massacres on purpose and goes beyond the “call of duty” in them. Hawthorne never pursued those tauren once they were gone. Meanwhile Horde always does that.

[TheRevenantHero]

Camp Taurajo in-universe isn't considered an "atrocity".

Canonically Tauren leader Baine Bloodhoof stated that Camp Taurajo made itself a legitimate military target, by training hunters and troops on the borders of Theramore. Thus, the Alliance was justified in destroying it.

Baine Bloodhoof even exiled to Vendetta Point those tauren who were so blinded by pointless hatred that they could not be reasoned with.

People disagree with you when you claim Camp Taurajo was a stain on the Alliance reputation because the story proves you wrong. The story paints the Alliance as correct in believing that Taurajo had to be removed (the story supports the Alliance's actions via the word of Baine Bloodhoof), and paints the denizens of Vendetta Point as stubborn rebels that had to be exiled from Mulgore, as they endangered Baine's beliefs and leadership.

You've already proven that you support the genocide of entire races because you think they are "mongrels" so you really have absolutely no leg to stand on in this debate. All you're doing is further proving you are a hypocrite. And if you're going to say that the Alliance believes that removing Taurajo was a good move and that justifies it then that means Theramore was a good move as well since it was the Alliance's largest naval installation.

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War is not about exterminating populations, at least if you are not a psychopath. Occupying the land, forcing population to submit to your rule and then integrating them as citizens (or second grade citizens, or colonial serfs or anything) usually is the goal.

Because then you have both land and workers to work it who were doing it before and know how things done there.

And yes, letting your enemy civilians escape to the point where it endangers your operation IS overly nice.

And again - they knew quillboars lived in the Barrens, but they didnt knew that tribe moved close to the road after Cataclysm.

And would you kindly stop with unfounded accusations? I would phrase it differently but admin will blow a fuse and ban me over insulting your feelings.

And i will respond again, very patiently: i do not dent the fact that Taurajo ended up as a massacre. But it happened because AS YOU SAID YOURSELF Alliance commander was AN IDIOT with bad intel.

Meanwhile Horde commits massacres on purpose and goes beyond the “call of duty” in them. Hawthorne never pursued those tauren once they were gone. Meanwhile Horde always does that.

The Alliance burned numerous civilians alive and the ones they didn't burn were forcibly driven into quillboar territory and massacred. There is absolutely no way to paint things any other way. The Alliance knew exactly what they were doing. But as usual, Alliance fans will try to revise things to make the Alliance look innocent or just made a small mistake. Because apparently the Alliance just NEVER commits atrocities right?

[Aucald]

Teldrassil is directly stated to have been a genocide in a novel.

Hence why I said it was a better argument, although "it was said in a novel" doesn't necessarily make that a fact, either, especially if it is said in the context of a character declaring it.

Theramore was an independent city-state that was blown up in its entirety. Garrosh deliberately waited to drop the nuke until all the defenders gathered inside the city walls. He wanted to kill everyone. Many of its surviving citizens (those who were caught) were rounded up in Orgrimmar and either executed or treated like animals for the amusement of orcs, their only "crime" being that nationally they came from Theramore. He was directly accused of "genocide" by the Pandaren Celestials at his trial. Sounds like a genocide to me.

Theramore doesn't constitute a discrete or unique people, it's just an Alliance city-state that at the time of destruction had largely been evacuated of its civilian populace (only a handful of which were later recaptured and executed in Orgrimmar). This isn't to say the destruction of Theramore and the death of many of its people is a good thing, but it's no more genocide than the siege of Ogrimmar at the close of MoP would be genocide.

There are consequences for those who mass slaughter humans (Garrosh) and elves (Sylvanas). There are no consequences for those that mass slaughter murlocs. What does this tell you?

Consequences also do not define what genocide is, nor does a lack of consequence make genocide unimportant much less morally good.