The night warrior arc had no purpose, right?

[BaumanKing]

I know it's hard to find any crime committed by the Alliance, truly I do.

I mean, your Alleria tortured poor civilians in front of their children. She also sent an innocent apothecary to the stockade for further "interrogation". We haven't heard from him since.

The Alliance has done a lot of nasty things, if you want to dig further.

[VladlTutushkin]

I mean, your Alleria tortured poor civilians in front of their children. She also sent an innocent apothecary to the stockade for further "interrogation". We haven't heard from him since.

The Alliance has done a lot of nasty things, if you want to dig further.

"Tortured" after Turalyon bent his back offering them supplies and safe passage for information about a wanted war criminal who BOTH factions were hunting. Orc spat on him instead and so they had to apply mindfuck.

And "apothecary" and "innocent" do not come in the same package. RAS are basically Unit 731 "fantasy version", so claiming that a bioweapon specialist and also torture "doc" was innocent because he also had a medical role in the army is dishonest.

[Varodoc]

I mean, your Alleria tortured poor civilians in front of their children. She also sent an innocent apothecary to the stockade for further "interrogation". We haven't heard from him since.

The Alliance has done a lot of nasty things, if you want to dig further.

There is no "poor civilian" when said person refuses to cooperate with finding a dangerous war criminal fugitive (Sylvanas) and even spits on the face of a world leader (Alleria, major leader of the Alliance).

She also sent an innocent apothecary to the stockade for further "interrogation".

Sounds like karma to me. The apothecary are not good people. On the contrary, they have been experimenting with the living since Vanilla. The apothecary can have a taste of his own medicine.

Why are we even acting like an apothecary could ever be a "victim"? Lol, the apothecaries are literally evil mad scientists memes.

[VladlTutushkin]

There is no "poor civilian" when said person refuses to cooperate with finding a dangerous war criminal fugitive (Sylvanas) and even spits on the face of a world leader (Alleria, major leader of the Alliance).


Sounds like karma to me. The apothecary are not good people. On the contrary, they have been experimenting with the living since Vanilla. The apothecary can have a taste of his own medicine.

Exactly. One can even argue about the orc but defending an apothecary? Really? They are the most twisted "researchers" on Azeroth, they never hid it, always reveled in it and never were ashamed of their actions. Him being sent to stockades instead of being bisected there and then is a mercy compared to what his victims felt when he turned them into abominations, poured Blight on them or carved them up "for science".

Also, they could have killed that caravan off entirely and just never bring it up again. There were no witnesses and yet they let the Horde people go there, and even gave them supplies when they had no reason to.

[Varodoc]

Exactly. One can even argue about the orc but defending an apothecary? Really? They are the most twisted "researchers" on Azeroth, they never hid it, always reveled in it and never were ashamed of their actions. Him being sent to stockades instead of being bisected there and then is a mercy compared to what his victims felt when he turned them into abominations, poured Blight on them or carved them up "for science".

Defending an apothecary is definitely a new low and shows you just how non-existant any moral standards are for the Horde.

The "poor apothecary" tortured in "Stormwind Stockades" most likely helped his comrades lobotomise Theresa and turn her into a living vegetable.

[VladlTutushkin]

Defending an apothecary is definitely a new low and shows you just how non-existant any moral standards are for the Horde.

The "poor apothecary" tortured in "Stormwind Stockades" most likely helped his comrades lobotomise Theresa and turn her into a living vegetable.

Well even if he was not a perpetrator of that crime we do know for a fact that apothecaries perform torture "science" on their victims , sometimes for no real reason aside from twisted curiosity. So its safe to say that a long standing member of the organization had seen at least a few such acts and at least assisted in several.

[Feanoro]

For the record, reminder that Tauren Leader Baine Bloodhoof stated that Camp Taurajo was a legitimate military target and did not hold any grudge towards the Alliance. He even (rightfully!) exiled from the Tauren lands those crazy lunatics who wanted revenge for Camp Taurajo. Revenge for nothing. It was a legitimate military target and thus, as per Baine's own admission, the Alliance literally did nothing wrong.

It's the Tauren supremacists who wanted "revenge" for some "phantom crime" who did plenty of wrong, hence why Chieftain Bloodhoof wisely exiled them. The Tauren government proves that they do not tolerate those blinded by pointless hatred.

So please update the meme @Feanoro, I know it's hard to find any crime committed by the Alliance, truly I do. Some could even go as far as to say that it is impossible. But Camp Taurajo was never a war crime. Canonically, the Horde have no right and are not entitled to complain about Camp Taurajo.

That's the point of it. Hordies make dramatic pronouncements about how the Alliance has committed worse crimes than the Horde, but when pressed, they can only whine about Taurajo or dredge up the ancient past, long before the Alliance existed.

(For bonus points, they usually get the ancient past completely wrong, like curiously having complete amnesia about how the Sundering was caused by the ancestors of the Blood Elves and Nightborne.)

[Jackstraw]

[...] her actions ruined or jeopardized at least ten other characters. Not even speaking about races she humiliated into nothingness and destroyed their racial fantasy and feel.

Forsaken fans are raging about Calia, but Sylvanas did more damage then Calia ever could hope to the story.

Also yes, people make mistakes, but not all mistakes can be fixed with shoving the dirt under the carpet and waiting for a few years. Some mistakes take bravery to fix by throwing the garbage out and starting a new, better story that can be done from the similar root to the bad one, but with better writing and ideas instead of trying to constantly reanimate a corpse, so to say. If people will keep begging Blizz to keep old characters we will never move on from Jaina and Thrall and there are only so many times you can bring character out until they become stale and bad.

And thats why Illidan was so well received! He came exactly on time, did not overstayed his welcome and was gone until his next cue, where he again stayed in the spotlight exactly the right time and was gone with a blast. Instead of dragging his husk through several expansions and making him entirely hated by the fans.

I wholeheartedly agree on that.

Illidan was treated with care and respect, launched a bunch of zingers and left with one.
(also kind of damaged irreparably the Naarus in their entirety - or gave depth to the Light as a cosmic power - but let's just not think too hard on that)


Sylvanas has been used to further a very confused plot and in doing so damaged the very lore of the game. The Night Warrior being the prime example.
Other characters could have taken the place of Tyrande and Sylvanas, and a better, more respectable outcome could have come out of it. Instead, the burden of the past weighting on the expectation those names bring ran lapses around it.

I think we all would like to have new names in the fold. Calia is not one I like, and the quest in Silverpine left a poor taste in my mouth, but at least it's a step in a new direction, one where the writers can do their thing without bringing old names out and consequently operate on a blank slate.

[Varodoc]

That's the point of it. Hordies make dramatic pronouncements about how the Alliance has committed worse crimes than the Horde, but when pressed, they can only whine about Taurajo or dredge up the ancient past, long before the Alliance existed.

(For bonus points, they usually get the ancient past completely wrong, like curiously having complete amnesia about how the Sundering was caused by the ancestors of the Blood Elves and Nightborne.)

Yes haha! Or how it was Lordaeron that established the internment camps and most of its citizens are currently in the Horde, but most Horde players seem to forget that.

The most hilarious thing is when they blame the Alliance for Arthas and Garithos while simultaneously claiming that Lordaeron belongs to the Horde. If Lordaeron belongs to the Horde, so do its war criminals, thus the Horde are to blame for Arthas and Garithos' actions.

[chrisisvacant]

What i really appreciate about Blizz is how they always find it in their hearts to step on night elf fans collective throat even when the fanbase is pretty much lying in the pool of blood from two dozen stab wounds.

Nobody FORCED them to make Darkshore into "loss" through making it uninhabitable wasteland where even animals cant live for long. It has no bearing on the plot, really serves no purpose aside from pouring misery on the race already drowning in misery.

Good lord you people are dramatic.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

(For bonus points, they usually get the ancient past completely wrong, like curiously having complete amnesia about how the Sundering was caused by the ancestors of the Blood Elves and Nightborne.)

In the nightborne's case it's not even there ancestors the nightborne alive right now are the very same that sided with Azshara during the WoTa they even kept the same leader ten thousand years later and then joined the legion a second time.

[KrayZ33]

The most hilarious thing is when they blame the Alliance for Arthas and Garithos while simultaneously claiming that Lordaeron belongs to the Horde. If Lordaeron belongs to the Horde, so do its war criminals, thus the Horde are to blame for Arthas and Garithos' actions.

Lmao. That makes no sense.
I mean, just think about it for a second.
What has the Horde to do with Arthas' actions. What even has the Alliance to do with it, or anyone other than Scourge/Dreadlords/Jailer/Legion/Arthas himself.

[Varodoc]

Lmao. That makes no sense.
I mean, just think about it for a second.
What has the Horde to do with Arthas' actions. What even has the Alliance to do with it, or anyone other than Scourge/Dreadlords/Jailer/Legion/Arthas himself.

You can ask that question to all the Blood elf stans who blame the Alliance for Arthas exterminating Quel'Thalas.

[KrayZ33]

You can ask that question to all the Blood elf stans who blame the Alliance for Arthas exterminating Quel'Thalas.

I have no idea why someone would connect the Alliance to Arthas. Even less the Horde.
Even in the games you'd already play him as an "undead" (Scourge/Legion Controlled - not forsaken) when he exterminated Quel'Thalas.

It's pretty much the same with Garrosh actually. The "Horde" he was part of is different from the "Horde" the player is part of.

In Sylvanas case, it's a bit different because they had this stupid idea that you can "choose to stay with Sylvanas" throughout the storyline... which was nothing more than pandering actually.

[VladlTutushkin]

Good lord you people are dramatic.

Wouldnt be this way if the plot was different. As i always say - you think Calia is bad? Think of years of "Caliafication" of your whole race.

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Yes haha! Or how it was Lordaeron that established the internment camps and most of its citizens are currently in the Horde, but most Horde players seem to forget that.

The most hilarious thing is when they blame the Alliance for Arthas and Garithos while simultaneously claiming that Lordaeron belongs to the Horde. If Lordaeron belongs to the Horde, so do its war criminals, thus the Horde are to blame for Arthas and Garithos' actions.

I even forgot about that! Yes, Garithos and Arthas are both Lordaeronians! So if "all history and land of Lordaeron" are theirs... Then so are the crimes of its people.

[Varodoc]

I have no idea why someone would connect the Alliance to Arthas. Even less the Horde.
Even in the games you'd already play him as an "undead" (Scourge/Legion Controlled - not forsaken) when he exterminated Quel'Thalas.

It's pretty much the same with Garrosh actually. The "Horde" he was part of is different from the "Horde" the player is part of.

In Sylvanas case, it's a bit different because they had this stupid idea that you can "choose to stay with Sylvanas" throughout the storyline... which was nothing more than pandering actually.

It's not at all unlikely to come across arguments like "It was a Human Alliance prince who destroyed Quel'Thalas, so the Blood elves wouldn't rejoin the Alliance" from the Pro-Horde side.

Why does this surprise you? Horde players already try to connect the playable Night elves to Azshara and the Highborne from 10000 years ago to discredit the Alliance. They do the same with the playable Draenei and Kil'jaeden/Archimonde. It's not at all a surprise that they do the same with the Humans and Arthas, the Human prince.

Don't tell me you have never seen a Horde player claim "the Alliance is more evil than the Horde because the night elves blew up the world 10000 years ago!!!".

The "Horde" he was part of is different from the "Horde" the player is part of.

The Horde that the player is part of supported Garrosh throughout all his crimes and atrocities up to and including patch 5.2.

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Wouldnt be this way if the plot was different. As i always say - you think Calia is bad? Think of years of "Caliafication" of your whole race.

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I even forgot about that! Yes, Garithos and Arthas are both Lordaeronians! So if "all history and land of Lordaeron" are theirs... Then so are the crimes of its people.

Essentially, Forsaken players want to have the cake and eat it too.

They want to be recognized legally as the rightful citizens of Lordaeron. But at the same time, they don't want to take responsibility for the war murderers they raised, like Arthas Menethil Prince of Lordaeron.

[bloodmoth13]

And what caused them to change? She never had a "spiritual journey" with Sylvanas like Uther. She never saw her doing anything but evil. And frankly, why should she care about being kind to her or forgiving when her whole race was doomed to extinction by Sylvanas? You know, birth rates slower then any other race in Alliance or Horde and they just lost most of their civilians.

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You talking as if she is the "main character" of the story. Meanwhile her actions ruined or jeopardized at least ten other characters. Not even speaking about races she humiliated into nothingness and destroyed their racial fantasy and feel.

Forsaken fans are raging about Calia, but Sylvanas did more damage then Calia ever could hope to the story.

Also yes, people make mistakes, but not all mistakes can be fixed with shoving the dirt under the carpet and waiting for a few years. Some mistakes take bravery to fix by throwing the garbage out and starting a new, better story that can be done from the similar root to the bad one, but with better writing and ideas instead of trying to constantly reanimate a corpse, so to say. If people will keep begging Blizz to keep old characters we will never move on from Jaina and Thrall and there are only so many times you can bring character out until they become stale and bad.

And thats why Illidan was so well received! He came exactly on time, did not overstayed his welcome and was gone until his next cue, where he again stayed in the spotlight exactly the right time and was gone with a blast. Instead of dragging his husk through several expansions and making him entirely hated by the fans.

Not sure what your point is.
Sylvanas is shelved, sure her story is bad and she did bad things to other characters but she is out of the story for now so who cares move on.

Just because her story was bad it doesnt mean she has to die. thats the laziest way to fix her story, whats more it does literally nothing, shes in the afterlife doing labour, thats effectively dead, killing her changes exactly nothing other than denying her the consequences of her actions. even if she died properly blizz could contrive an excuse to bring her back if they really wanted to so, again, it solves NOTHING.

[cparle87]

Also there is no need to struggle with forgiveness. Sylvanas straight up does not deserve one. She is a cold hearted monster who was getting aroused by watching people die in agony (and its LITERALLY IN A BOOK) so i dont fucken know what else she should do for people to realise that she is beyond forgiveness at this point. She is morally abhorrent and bankrupt.

She's also kind of, you know, missing half of her soul. Pretty sure a first year law student could make a good argument for diminished capacity. There's whole threads about whether Arthas was responsible for what he did post-Frostmourne since he was a passenger inside the sword watching a body that looked and sounded like him destroy everything he loved.

[VladlTutushkin]

She's also kind of, you know, missing half of her soul. Pretty sure a first year law student could make a good argument for diminished capacity. There's whole threads about whether Arthas was responsible for what he did post-Frostmourne since he was a passenger inside the sword watching a body that looked and sounded like him destroy everything he loved.

And what happened to Arthas in the end?

This is about all that needs to be said on the matter. When Tyrande watches last shred of Sylvanas soul fade away with a whimper then this comparison makes sense.

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Not sure what your point is.
Sylvanas is shelved, sure her story is bad and she did bad things to other characters but she is out of the story for now so who cares move on.

Just because her story was bad it doesnt mean she has to die. thats the laziest way to fix her story, whats more it does literally nothing, shes in the afterlife doing labour, thats effectively dead, killing her changes exactly nothing other than denying her the consequences of her actions. even if she died properly blizz could contrive an excuse to bring her back if they really wanted to so, again, it solves NOTHING.

They killed Arthas TWICE and second time specifically to jerk off Danuser’s boner for Sylvanas by making her “abuser” die as a small shrivelled ball of soul goop.

How is she so much more important than the guy who’s back they kept riding to the peak of WoW popularity aka the vaunted 13 million subscribers in Wrath?

Yeah no, killing her was the only good option. Now its just a ticking time bomb before they bring her back as a “hero” and fuck everything up to the end.

[KrayZ33]

The Horde that the player is part of supported Garrosh throughout all his crimes and atrocities up to and including patch 5.2.

Not really, by then Garrosh already used his "Geheimpolizei" and killed everyone who had a different opinion.
Might as well blame the elves (all of them) for Azshara, because they weren't in open rebellion against her.
I mean, you act as if the elves were 2 kind of races in the first place. All of the elves were the nightelves. Highborne are nightelves.
It's just a different caste.

The bloodelves are exiled nightelves.

The player-horde was against Garrosh, just as much as the nightelves in the Alliance are the rebels that fought the Nightelf-Garrosh version called Azshara.