Moments where the bad guys should have won

[Flurryfang]

Legion should have ended with a much bigger loss than we got. Sargeras should have succeded in bringing about a near apocalypse for Azeroth, bring desperation to the world and making our win very bitter sweet.

Would have made for an interesting follow-up expansion. BFA would have been an expansion filled with desperate events, people trying their best to hold on and with a world dying all around us. Saving Azeroth would have been much more urgent and a constant fight to keep back the flow of destruction on Azeroth. Would also have given space to a patch, that simply was about making the best of it, an "End of the world party!" held by Goblins.

[Linkedblade]

In wotlk, there should have been a "failed" assault on Icecrown that would result in a crushing defeat by Lich King (maybe even first raid instead of Naxx) and then there would be argent tournament where Tirion train champions against LK

Cataclysm detto, raid where Deathwing (in human form!!!!) whoops our arses and then we go against him

There are two failed attempts, iirc, against Icecrown. The Wrathgate being the first, and that was the full force of the Horde Expedition and Alliance Vanguard working together. That isn't stopped by the Lich King, but rather Apothecary Putress, etc. The horde and alliance probably would have had a decisive victory here.

The second time is the Icecrown story line. Which i think is the player character just cleaning up an assault that the Alliance and Horde tried to put together against ICC, but wind up fighting one another. Most of the damage control is under the Ebon Blade faction. Through all of the Icecrown quests we defeat all the smaller issues and lieutenants like the vrykul and scarlets. It's not until the tourny that there is another attempt at a formidable force to entre ICC.

[VinceVega]

Honestly?

EVERY SINGLE TIME! We never won by outsmarting them. We always just run in and than pull out some kind of deus ex machina out of our ass.
COmbined with wows monologing villians who always want to show us "why we can't win" before pressing the "i win button".
We always for some reason come in the last possible moment to kill them before they do something that will destroy the universe.

Every villian would have won if the started 10 minutes earlier. or just... flew away.

[Universalgirl]

I will never accept another king than

Arthas as Lichking

And i never accept that a miracle of light helped to defeat him

Nothing could beat the Lichking the Master of the Dead, a IQ higher than everything cold strategic moves in wc3

Wotlk ending erased the Mythos Arthas
And was a downgrade in power

[Chickat]

- The confrontation with the Lich King (We were beaten... only by a strange twist of fate, we were resurrected and won)
- Archimonde's defeat at Dreanor (It took a lot more to defeat him at Hyjal, so it's a bit strange we defeated him with a bit more ease. He could've wiped us out)
- Kil'Jaiden's defeat (We mopped the floor with the Legion, only to find out that Sargeras were closeby all along... it could've ended badly!)
- Argus' defeat (Argus could've and would've murdered us if it weren't for the deus ex machina)
- N'zoth's defeat (Supposedly, an Azerothian Kamehameha is all that was needed...)

We've had too many run ins with death...

I know it's a game and we're meant to win, but it'd be good to occasionally lose, in a gameplay sense. That way we can work on a story where we're the underdogs again!

Speaking of Death, I honestly think we should have lost to the Jailer as well.

Also Deathwing is iffy. We did get the Dragon soul Mcguffin, so it makes sense, but we easily could have lost too. One expansion I hope we lose.

Imo the perfect expansion would be getting thrown back in time at the end of a Moruzond fight in the end raid of Dragonflight and ending up in Ancient Kalimdor. That could either be 1 massive expansion or 2-3 regular expansions worth of content if they really wanted. I would love that, but I know some people hate time travel.

Also, the Ancient Kalimdor is also the perfect opportunity for them to finish any remaining assets they need for a world revamp in 12.0. Just sayin.

[boots1991]

. Our initial invasion into the Dark Portal in WoD.
. Surviving on Argus
.....All the instances that have a humanoid enemy. Even just one, to raise an alarm.

[melzas]

Ok we lose and then what? This isn't a book or even a movie, story in this MMORPG video game is supposed to give background for gameplay.

It could work if we lost once or twice without dying, but it would quickly get ridiculous that we lose to a threat only to survive and become stronger.

It's really annoying that lore nerds don't understand that lore in this game has one primary goal and that is to create setting for the game. If you want good story then you are playing the wrong game (or even genre).

[Shadowferal]

Bad guys do win. It's just we get content patches so we can respond with all our fury and might.

[khazmodan]

- The confrontation with the Lich King (We were beaten... only by a strange twist of fate, we were resurrected and won)
- Archimonde's defeat at Dreanor (It took a lot more to defeat him at Hyjal, so it's a bit strange we defeated him with a bit more ease. He could've wiped us out)
- Kil'Jaiden's defeat (We mopped the floor with the Legion, only to find out that Sargeras were closeby all along... it could've ended badly!)
- Argus' defeat (Argus could've and would've murdered us if it weren't for the deus ex machina)
- N'zoth's defeat (Supposedly, an Azerothian Kamehameha is all that was needed...)

We've had too many run ins with death...

I know it's a game and we're meant to win, but it'd be good to occasionally lose, in a gameplay sense. That way we can work on a story where we're the underdogs again!

This is a really good point, if we lost in a brutal epic way then it could set up a tension in the next patch/expansion that could justify finding new allies to go back at that enemy. I don't think the current Blizzard could pull it off since they have a hard time telling anything but the most formulaic stories, but it would be cool to see if done right.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

Imagine if Primus turned out to be a bad guy and that the rune-carved legendaries he constructed for us were really infused with domination magic. Then we would run across the maw mindlessly. I remember those traders in Oribos saying things like:

Trader Ba'telk says: I am growing fond of these mortals. Many possess flexible morals. I can appreciate that.
Trader Ba'gor says: Not sure they would agree. They seem to believe they are the heroes of the story.
Trader Ba'telk says: It depends who is telling the story, does it not?

[Feanoro]

Trader Ba'telk says: I am growing fond of these mortals. Many possess flexible morals. I can appreciate that.
Trader Ba'gor says: Not sure they would agree. They seem to believe they are the heroes of the story.
Trader Ba'telk says: It depends who is telling the story, does it not?

...
...

Wow.

What a great way to lampshade the disconnect between Danuser and the players.

[Magistrate]

Honestly?

EVERY SINGLE TIME! We never won by outsmarting them. We always just run in and than pull out some kind of deus ex machina out of our ass.
COmbined with wows monologing villians who always want to show us "why we can't win" before pressing the "i win button".
We always for some reason come in the last possible moment to kill them before they do something that will destroy the universe.

Every villian would have won if the started 10 minutes earlier. or just... flew away.

Suramar imo is the exception here. The insurrection was very much planned and executed and the pillars of creation were very specifically gathered.

[Progenitor Aquarius]

...
...

Wow.

What a great way to lampshade the disconnect between Danuser and the players.

You mean, that this plot would be very interesting. Right?

[VinceVega]

Suramar imo is the exception here. The insurrection was very much planned and executed and the pillars of creation were very specifically gathered.

And the we proceeded to stop guldan right when he was about to finish all his planes, forcing him into a dangerous gamble JUST before he put sargeras into Illidan.

10 Minutes later and the legion would have won^^

The whole story of suramar was good. Nothing to say against that or most of wows stories... just the ends^^

[shadowmatrix]

In wotlk, there should have been a "failed" assault on Icecrown that would result in a crushing defeat by Lich King (maybe even first raid instead of Naxx) and then there would be argent tournament where Tirion train champions against LK

Cataclysm detto, raid where Deathwing (in human form!!!!) whoops our arses and then we go against him

The Wrathgate was a failed assault on Icecrown, there was another assault that failed because the attacking groups turned on each other.

[loras]

If you consider that in Warcraft 3 we needed all armies of Azeroth to stop Archimonde.
Meaning basicly all bosses that are considered stronger then him should have beaten us heck maybe alot more since we are like what 20-40 people lore-wise facing these bosses.

We usually have help for the real big bads, though they've been sloppy with that of late, or so it feels, though that might be to avoid whining about killstealing like with Deathwing.

[Steelangel]

I also wonder if Lei Shen was just weak enough to be killed or if he held back and was killed because of his own mistake.

Lei Shen's "No! YoU aRe UnWoRtHy .. I am the THUNDER KING!" Is the line with the most I-was-not-prepared energy in the entire game.

- - - Updated - - -

Imagine if Primus turned out to be a bad guy and that the rune-carved legendaries he constructed for us were really infused with domination magic. Then we would run across the maw mindlessly. I remember those traders in Oribos saying things like:

Trader Ba'telk says: I am growing fond of these mortals. Many possess flexible morals. I can appreciate that.
Trader Ba'gor says: Not sure they would agree. They seem to believe they are the heroes of the story.
Trader Ba'telk says: It depends who is telling the story, does it not?

If only it was the Primus behind everything. If only this was true:


But nah. Shit-tier 3-D printed makerbots as the afterlife endgame.

[Feanoro]

You mean, that this plot would be very interesting. Right?

I mean that dialogue could be interpreted as

"The players think they're the heroes of the story."
"Well, that depends who's telling the story."

[Rockefellah]

As far as we were concerned Illidan and Vashj (as all Naga) were bad guys. Kael was in a weird position with silver moon initially loyal to him.

After getting to shattrath we learn the perceived truth of the three being in charge of Outland with as far as we are concerned domination as a goal.

Kael doubles down on it betraying Illidan. At this point we (and apparently the Naaru) don't see Illidan'a long game to take a bite out of the Legion.

[Nymrohd]

At this point we (and apparently the Naaru) don't see Illidan'a long game to take a bite out of the Legion.

Or A'dal is a good being of deontological morality and does not believe the ends can ever justify the means; he will not excuse Illidan enslaving and sacrificing mortals to deal significant damage to the Legion no matter if from a utilitarian perspective it might make sense.