Leaving M+ group should give you DESERTER

[Sialina]

that may be so but those places are where the meta comps are highlighted to the broader player base, if they weren't there the meta builds wouldn't have been showcased so much

People will figure out a meta regardless, you'd have to ban people from the internet and from the main chat to avoid one forming.

I'll give you a quick example from my own experience, in another MMO I played there was a class called destroyer, unlike what the name suggests, a destroyer is a support class, it does around 70% of the damage a normal class does, but enables everyone else to do around 120%

In the first few weeks of the game while everyone was doing easy content, noone cared, there was no ranking, and noone was doing hard dungeons, noone cared who got invited, the game also didn't have DPS meters.

After a couple of months, people were doing the hard dungeons, and some min/max people started recording their runs, to compare damage between the classes. This was the first time people became aware that a destroyer would do around 70% of the other classes DPS, within a couple of weeks the news had spread around the servers, and destroyers were no longer getting invited to groups.

A couple of months later, the same min/maxers figured out how to gain extra damage for other characters using the destroyer, suddenly, within 10 days the meta shifted again, and now every group HAD to have a destroyer, but there were not that many left, and the time to form a group shot up quite a bit.

The moral of the story is, as long as you have challenging content (and you want and need to have that for the game to last anything more than a week) players will try to figure out the easiest way to beat said content.

You do the same in real life, you listen to advice on how to get a good job, save for retirement, how to do certain things, there are metas everywhere, you can't avoid them, the best you can hope for is like the person that chooses to be a youtuber or a painter, you also dare to go off the trodden path and take the harder road that comes with going off meta.

[kamuimac]

People will figure out a meta regardless, you'd have to ban people from the internet and from the main chat to avoid one forming.

I'll give you a quick example from my own experience, in another MMO I played there was a class called destroyer, unlike what the name suggests, a destroyer is a support class, it does around 70% of the damage a normal class does, but enables everyone else to do around 120%

In the first few weeks of the game while everyone was doing easy content, noone cared, there was no ranking, and noone was doing hard dungeons, noone cared who got invited, the game also didn't have DPS meters.

After a couple of months, people were doing the hard dungeons, and some min/max people started recording their runs, to compare damage between the classes. This was the first time people became aware that a destroyer would do around 70% of the other classes DPS, within a couple of weeks the news had spread around the servers, and destroyers were no longer getting invited to groups.

A couple of months later, the same min/maxers figured out how to gain extra damage for other characters using the destroyer, suddenly, within 10 days the meta shifted again, and now every group HAD to have a destroyer, but there were not that many left, and the time to form a group shot up quite a bit.

The moral of the story is, as long as you have challenging content (and you want and need to have that for the game to last anything more than a week) players will try to figure out the easiest way to beat said content.

You do the same in real life, you listen to advice on how to get a good job, save for retirement, how to do certain things, there are metas everywhere, you can't avoid them, the best you can hope for is like the person that chooses to be a youtuber or a painter, you also dare to go off the trodden path and take the harder road that comes with going off meta.

let me tell you a little secret. in 95 % of groups in wow nobody cares about meta .

people most often mistake declines due to way to low score / gear / group needing cr/bl with being declined because they play certain spec

and if you play above certain level (+20) then you should be playing in guild anyway not with pugs.

i personaly wouldnt pug anything above 18 because i value my sanity and mental health. and im not streamer who literaly gets paid for doing that.

[thunderdragon2]

you have to realise something much more important.

those people at top are there for the reason . they are just good.

give those meta class to your average 1500 score players and 90 % of cases they would perform atrocious.

wantexample ? left HOI 15 earlier. why ? because when we wiped on first boss dps meter looked like this

1) spriest 69k dps
2) evoker 45k dps
3) 'meta" retri pala - 40k dps.


bl gone and meters look liek they look . no way in hell we are killign it on tyranical week .

joined 14 and blasted through it

why ?

because meters on 1st boss looked like this

+/-

1)shammy 70k
2) retri pala 70k
3) druid 70k .

what i mean is people leave for a reason not because they leave for sake of leaving.

giving meta class to bad player is like giving sport car to sunday driver - he will likely end up in a ditch or on the tree in under 5 minutes of driving. most of those in mid keys 12-17 hope for miracle and free boost . and when boost doesnt happen they come crying to forums.

i do realise that, but thats not the point i was making no the point of what i was quoting, ppl sees a comp win the mdi and go oh that's the best comp around i ONLY want that comp for my keys it's a VERY constant mind set of puggers

- - - Updated - - -

People will figure out a meta regardless, you'd have to ban people from the internet and from the main chat to avoid one forming.

I'll give you a quick example from my own experience, in another MMO I played there was a class called destroyer, unlike what the name suggests, a destroyer is a support class, it does around 70% of the damage a normal class does, but enables everyone else to do around 120%

In the first few weeks of the game while everyone was doing easy content, noone cared, there was no ranking, and noone was doing hard dungeons, noone cared who got invited, the game also didn't have DPS meters.

After a couple of months, people were doing the hard dungeons, and some min/max people started recording their runs, to compare damage between the classes. This was the first time people became aware that a destroyer would do around 70% of the other classes DPS, within a couple of weeks the news had spread around the servers, and destroyers were no longer getting invited to groups.

A couple of months later, the same min/maxers figured out how to gain extra damage for other characters using the destroyer, suddenly, within 10 days the meta shifted again, and now every group HAD to have a destroyer, but there were not that many left, and the time to form a group shot up quite a bit.

The moral of the story is, as long as you have challenging content (and you want and need to have that for the game to last anything more than a week) players will try to figure out the easiest way to beat said content.

You do the same in real life, you listen to advice on how to get a good job, save for retirement, how to do certain things, there are metas everywhere, you can't avoid them, the best you can hope for is like the person that chooses to be a youtuber or a painter, you also dare to go off the trodden path and take the harder road that comes with going off meta.

that's how i felt in sl season 1 trying to do a 20 as bm its instant decline or instant removal, ppl would also just leave grp when ever i tried to make a grp for my own key except the meta didn't shift till next patch.

sadly the last part is true tho im not old enough to even think about retirement heck I've not even had any advice on saving for retirement.

[Sialina]

let me tell you a little secret. in 95 % of groups in wow nobody cares about meta .

people most often mistake declines due to way to low score / gear / group needing cr/bl with being declined because they play certain spec

and if you play above certain level (+20) then you should be playing in guild anyway not with pugs.

i personaly wouldnt pug anything above 18 because i value my sanity and mental health. and im not streamer who literaly gets paid for doing that.

There is no need to tell me, we do around 23s currently and we run several off meta classes. I was simply trying to convey that no matter what you do to "fight" the establishment of a meta, it will still happen.

[Alroxas]

what i really want to know is why people seem to be terrified of not timing a key

For some players, their goal is to build their score. And while you can get some points from completing a dungeon a little over time, it doesn't help the statistic of X keys finished in time for Y bracket.

And since time is a finite resource, it may be better (for the individual) to bail if they see that the probability of achieving their goal drops significantly enough that they would rather go find a new group than try to grind the rest of the way in the current dungeon.

Moreover, some dungeons' timer are very tight to the point where there's very little room for error.

[jeezusisacasual]

let me tell you a little secret. in 95 % of groups in wow nobody cares about meta .

people most often mistake declines due to way to low score / gear / group needing cr/bl with being declined because they play certain spec

and if you play above certain level (+20) then you should be playing in guild anyway not with pugs.

i personaly wouldnt pug anything above 18 because i value my sanity and mental health. and im not streamer who literaly gets paid for doing that.

I personally do not play a meta tank for mythic plus ( Protection Warrior ) but i only invite Meta choices because while i enjoy a challenge i want the easiest time possible to achieve my goals. Until this past week when i finished my personal goals ( 20s on every key and heroic cleared, hell got 4 mythic bosses down this tier so a bonus) i generally wanted melee oriented dps since i play a Protection Warrior and my best mate plays a Feral now if i am playing by myself i am more flexible but the goal as a tank is to put your damage dealers in the best position to do as much damage as possible since its the most important metric/role anyway.

I never understood the people who get so worked up over a failure of a Key with myself ran about 70 this season i want to say i failed 4 or 5 of them?

[sponge5307]

There is no need to tell me, we do around 23s currently and we run several off meta classes. I was simply trying to convey that no matter what you do to "fight" the establishment of a meta, it will still happen.

It depends on the affix. Some of the new affix makes it a lot hard to do with certain spec vs specs who have long CC with little to no CD or can disspell. Not saying it can't be done but is just a lot easier. Heck I stop doing m+ this season due to burnt out and is summer so I tend to do more out door activities (jack of all trades and master of some as I play every class and a lot of different spec). Every class have it's good and bad. Just like how everyone said rogue is OP in keys well I suck at playing one and I do better playing even a SV hunter so the whole let's pick meta only make no sense. Let people play the class they like and they will do much better than forcing to play a meta spec.

Anyways I most likely will get carry by friends/guild to KSM for the mount later in the season.

[Alroxas]

so the whole let's pick meta only make no sense. Let people play the class they like and they will do much better than forcing to play a meta spec.

Some of the new affix makes it a lot hard to do with certain spec

You just answered your own statement right here. Some specs just do X better than other specs and so if all things are equal (i.e. Same gear, same skill) then why wouldn't you pick "meta" spec over "non-meta" spec. Yes, we all know that for the majority of keys (sub-21+ keys) comp doesn't matter but if you can have an "easier" time why wouldn't you do so?

As for players being forced to play meta (or FoTM), I would hope that by the time players are mid-season, they would be looking at other factors beyond "meta spec" such as utility class/spec brings, actual M+ score and number of completed in time dungeons at Z bracket level. Unless pushing beyond +21, meta should be less of a factor.

[sponge5307]

You just answered your own statement right here. Some specs just do X better than other specs and so if all things are equal (i.e. Same gear, same skill) then why wouldn't you pick "meta" spec over "non-meta" spec. Yes, we all know that for the majority of keys (sub-21+ keys) comp doesn't matter but if you can have an "easier" time why wouldn't you do so?

As for players being forced to play meta (or FoTM), I would hope that by the time players are mid-season, they would be looking at other factors beyond "meta spec" such as utility class/spec brings, actual M+ score and number of completed in time dungeons at Z bracket level. Unless pushing beyond +21, meta should be less of a factor.

100% don't think what class you pick for keys below 20+ as long as someone can deal with the new affix. Honestly, though it feels like the affix is added without clomp or some class in mind as some classes just have no tools to deal with them making it much more difficult for these classes to be invited into pugs. I said it in day one in the public testing forums if affix needs certain utilities or CC some class will just have a much harder time pugging and Blizzard didn't fix a thing. Affix should not in any way force a certain class or classes since they have a much easier time dealing with them.

I really like to see affix remove and instead blizzard to come up with interesting dungeons

[Magnagarde]

There's a point at which continuing a key makes no sense. Whether it is the inability to beat the timer as the desired goal or the lack of will to spend an unreasonable amount of time clearing the dungeon, the player should be able to make a choice whenever he reckognizes either of these two.

[Revamp Man]

Prot warrior monk healer rogue dh warrior - look at that no lust no brez super clustered in melee that will be super duper fun. There is zero reason for a queue system. Run your own key.

I've cleared 15s with pally tank, 3 rets, and a monk
Need lust? Drums

The truth is there's different levels of what's socially acceptable at different key levels

You'll see elitism and leaving in certain break points much more than others. +11 you get Timmy leaving after ass pulling
+24 you won't get many ppl leaving

It's like previous seasons but everyone just moved up

- - - Updated - - -

There's a point at which continuing a key makes no sense. Whether it is the inability to beat the timer as the desired goal or the lack of will to spend an unreasonable amount of time clearing the dungeon, the player should be able to make a choice whenever he reckognizes either of these two.

No you must continue my key so I can get the loot and the vault
Idc that I bought a boost and now have a key that's too high for me to do
That's your problem

[Xath]

I've cleared 15s with pally tank, 3 rets, and a monk
Need lust? Drums

The truth is there's different levels of what's socially acceptable at different key levels

You'll see elitism and leaving in certain break points much more than others. +11 you get Timmy leaving after ass pulling
+24 you won't get many ppl leaving

It's like previous seasons but everyone just moved up

- - - Updated - - -



No you must continue my key so I can get the loot and the vault
Idc that I bought a boost and now have a key that's too high for me to do
That's your problem

That's 4 people who can brez I actually consider brez more important than Lust in the majority of pug keys because people will die. Either way the point was there are things a queue system would absolutely not account for and that it's very viable to run your own key. That said since the new system was implemented it does seem like most keys under at least 11 are just flat out dead. That's not a good thing and the way to fix that is to allow lower level gear to upgrade to the next tier in some fashion.

[kamuimac]

I've cleared 15s with pally tank, 3 rets, and a monk
Need lust? Drums

The truth is there's different levels of what's socially acceptable at different key levels

You'll see elitism and leaving in certain break points much more than others. +11 you get Timmy leaving after ass pulling
+24 you won't get many ppl leaving

It's like previous seasons but everyone just moved up

- - - Updated - - -



No you must continue my key so I can get the loot and the vault
Idc that I bought a boost and now have a key that's too high for me to do
That's your problem

everyone has this experiences, like this week i have run fast 16 UR on my guardian druid , our comp was 2 balance druids , monk heal and havoc dh ,

drums ? even though i called out nobody seems to have one so who cares still +2 it , maybe if i wasnt 425 tank we would +3 but i was scared to pull to much trash on bursting without mass dispel ,

point is you meet strangest comps in keys that are not super high but as long as people do mechanics comps dont really matter that much and people blame their own shortcomings on comp .

[LanToaster]

people most often mistake declines due to way to low score / gear / group needing cr/bl with being declined because they play certain spec

Not Commenting on Meta/NonMeta but this, I had this discussion with alot of people from my Guild/Friends when they Complained about constantly beeing Declined.

You can Observe this very very Easy: Open Group for a Desireable Key, and you get flooded with Applicants, obviously they pick the "Best" ones.
It might be due to Bloodlust, Group Comp ("I Wanna Range, I wanna Melee, I want a Warrior Shout because I have already a Monk and Hunter) or just plain old: a 430 DPS might do more damage than a 415.

[Tyris Flare]

pre-made group filter mod just added a ton of new options to sort through things like this when you are pugging. Just a PSA

[kamuimac]

Not Commenting on Meta/NonMeta but this, I had this discussion with alot of people from my Guild/Friends when they Complained about constantly beeing Declined.

You can Observe this very very Easy: Open Group for a Desireable Key, and you get flooded with Applicants, obviously they pick the "Best" ones.
It might be due to Bloodlust, Group Comp ("I Wanna Range, I wanna Melee, I want a Warrior Shout because I have already a Monk and Hunter) or just plain old: a 430 DPS might do more damage than a 415.

in my experience in 90% of cases its way to low io combined with low gear.

when i list for example a FH16 key im literaly flooded with people wanting to get in. if i dont put hard req of lets say 2k im flooded with like 1k 425 itlv dps who are delusional that anyone would pick them

this is the main reason people are constantly declined.

[neescher]

It's pretty clear you don't play M+ much at all(or certainly not at any respectable level) since most incorp 1) don't even spawn in the pull and 2) an aoe knockback is a useful stop that you should be talenting anyways and it's hilarious you think it's bad for the group. Do you even talent shockwave at this point or do you think AOE stops just aren't your problem and your only purpose is to "dps go brrrr healer please heal all that avoidable damage I could of stopped". Unless you're in a fully established group that you know has all stops covered these are things to have anyways lmao.

hahahahahahaha.... nobody, and I repeat, NOBODY specs into menace. Not during incorp and not during any other week. Go ahead, check the leaderboards, check subreation, check guides, inspect other warriors ingame. It's a trash talent that can and will wipe you in high keys. Have you actually *tried* the talent you speak so highly of?

I never said "aoe stops are bad", so go ahead and argue your strawman. It's pretty clear you neither play warrior in high keys, nor do you ever play with other people who play warrrior.

Show me 3 warriors from the top 100, or make it top 500, who spec into menace. But let me guess, all the top players are bad too, right?

[Tech614]

Show me 3 warriors from the top 100

Since it's clear you couldn't read lets quote myself again.

Unless you're in a fully established group that you know has all stops covered

Top 100 wars are in what again? If you're avoiding stops because coordinated groups don't need their wars to take them while you're pugging with randos that's probably why you're failing. Not because of incorp, stop crying. It's a loss to get sigil of misery on my DH, I still do it for random pugs that I can't trust to make all the stops and would never do it when running with my main group. Last I checked this thread was about random groups not top 100 rank players in organized groups.

[neescher]

Since it's clear you couldn't read lets quote myself again.



Top 100 wars are in what again? If you're avoiding stops because coordinated groups don't need their wars to take them while you're pugging with randos that's probably why you're failing. Not because of incorp, stop crying. It's a loss to get sigil of misery on my DH, I still do it for random pugs that I can't trust to make all the stops and would never do it when running with my main group. Last I checked this thread was about random groups not top 100 rank players in organized groups.

Then show me some pug warriors who spec into menace. Or even better, show me some high key logs of warriors who spec into it and actually use it. You can't because it doesn't exist. Maybe 1 or 2 random dudes who have no idea what they're doing are speccing into it, but they're probably still not using it. AoE stops are good, but not if they're knocking mobs in all directions and completely destroy your group's ability to aoe down packs. There are simply too many better options from other classes and specs. If IS+menace was the only aoe stop in the game it would be a different story, but it isn't. It's not worth 2 talent points because not only is it not good, it's actively bad and hurts the group.

And last time I checked sigil doesn't do a knockback, so again bad comparison. A disorient (which is already a completely different thing) that will break after 0.1 seconds, is worlds apart from a knockback that can't be cancelled. And if you think the two are the same, I suspect you too have never seen a warrior use IS+Menace.

[sponge5307]

Can't say much with my limited experience but man it feels like my hunter is wearing nothing lol. Feels like they could use more shorter CD. Is such a different game when I am on my ret pally doing 20 vs my hunter which I fear for my life this week(bursting). Any tips from fellow hunters? I might have to race change to Dwarf a(like my pally) their racial abilities is so useful these days.