The longevity of WoW going forward.

[kranur]

Checked right now, currently it should be lowest cause likely many people like me play D4 instead. What we see right now 12:30 AM on EU? Oh, 19 Full servers (8 English, 8 German, 1 French/Spanish/Russian) - and yes, I count connected as 1 - and shit ton of High. But yeah, game is dead cause mmochamps think that.

(Btw, many though that WoW Harcore is crushing retail just because many people watched in on Twitch, in reality Classic Era on EU had 2 Full servers)

Realm population status is not even real time. It's over a period of time. So you checking realm status at 3AM and seeing Full does NOT mean it's full at that particular time.
But yes, neither WoW nor the genre are dead. They are actually doing quote well.

[Huzzaa]

wrong. its one of the biggest wrongs in gaming. ive seen countless video games push great visuals fall flat on their face.

Totally agree.

You can have the shiniest turd as I call it. But if it feels sluggish and controls are bad, it's DOA.

[WoWenjoyer]

Pretty sure that was the entire point of Dragonflight and going forward. To appeal to the casual crowd and make more content for them to appeal to everyone that isn't a dedicated hardcore player.

I love this new gaslighting-move being employed. I am also seeing it more and more.

The gaslightning move being the idea that Dragonflight, with the most complex specs have possibly ever been. With the most difficult M+ dungeons we have ever had. Where we had to master 16 m+ dungeons 6 months into the expansion. Mythic raids that are still some of the hardest in WoW history. That this expansion was released to... please the casuals?

Of course, it gets even better. The expansion that has no sort of proper power progression system for casuals at all. Nothing to grind except gear that gives an almost non-existent power gain. Professions that make barely any sense for anyone who is not a turbo nerd who exploits the first days of the expansion. A complicated gearing system that you need a Youtube video or a WoWhead article to understand... Yeah all for the sake of casuals. Of course!!

I don´t know if these people think we are all idiots. We all know the people who hated artifact power are the top players. All these stories about being benched because someone did not grind AP or get a random Leggo, being forced to do Maw of Souls 1000 times. All these fake stories about some casual person being FORCED to do island expeditions. These things never affected normal and casual people who play this game.

Let´s be real, we all know why this is happening. Dragonflight gave top players EVERYTHING they wanted. Go watch criticism of Legion, BFA and even some parts of Shadowlands. All the criticism by RWF players and M+ pushers gave us this expansion. Of course this expansion is a complete failure, it is plain to see. So now the top players have to make up some bizarre excuse about how Dragonflight was actually the casual players expansion!! Because they can´t accept that fact that they got everything they ever asked for, except maybe for the removal of PI, and what happened? The game has failed like nothing ever before.

Nice try, but no cigar.

The casual crowd doesn't give a shit about esports/m+ or raiding. In fact thevye been focusing on that for a long time now and it hasn't worked at keeping casuals. The idea that they are focusing on these expressly to service casuals is fucking stupid.

It is not stupid. They are actively arguing in bad faith at this point. They know what they are doing. There is an idea out there that Dragonflight was actually the expansion for casuals, and that the removal of stuff like AP and titanforging was done for the sake of casuals.

[Ringthane]

Imo, WoW is on it's deathbed. We had a very long run for any game in history bar Pacman, but the game is just the same shit it has been since its release, and after a certain point even fanatics just get bored of the thing.

They attempted something new with Evoker but the class is just mediocre, even below mediocre in PVP, and the new race can only be Evoker, don't know why, cause if you go on Wowhead you can see that the model has all the animations of the other classes, so it's not a technical limitation as to why Dracthyr can't other classes as well, it's just some idiotic developer choice. So that's a total bomb.

WoW is just struggling to hold on to its veterans, because new players sure as hell aren't coming in, and it's losing even those too.

Has lost its coolness factor mostly because of the writing, as the game presents no heroic and stoic male characters despite the majority of players being boys and men (70% are male if I remember those stats), and the male characters are just pussified and simpering. There is no Garrosh, no Varian Wrynn, not even old school Thrall. They are all just fucking Steven Universe clones, at any point are just moments away from crying. Not that the female characters are much different, they are also very bland and boring and lacking any personality whatsoever, like they're fucking cardboard. I simply can't identify with nor feel sympathy for any of the leader NPCs.

There are 3 things the vast majority of audiences what to see: badass men, hot women, and badass hot women. But Blizzard is just taking after their hero and example: Disney, and is catering to imaginary audiences.

Something needs to change. I would start by firing all of the writing team cause they obviously have no idea what they're doing.

People like you have been saying "WoW is dying! WoW is dead!" for at least the last ten years. It's still going strong.

And come on. You display your bias with your ridiculous claims about a) men and b) Disney. We all know where that comes from.

[Osmeric]

It is not stupid. They are actively arguing in bad faith at this point.

Yes, exactly right. But then the hardcore case has always been in bad faith, at least in the sense of deliberately not questioning ones own conclusions. The idea that catering to the top players is the best way to make a game for everyone else has never made even a lick of sense.

[Hold]

Yes, exactly right. But then the hardcore case has always been in bad faith, at least in the sense of deliberately not questioning ones own conclusions. The idea that catering to the top players is the best way to make a game for everyone else has never made even a lick of sense.

Its how the majority of games are successful and seems a key part of multiplayer games.

You can argue not every game needs to be hardcore and I would agree but I can't really think of an example of a online multiplayer game that has been anywhere near as successful as those that do. You design for the peak and balence around it then you just strip it down for each easier difficulty.

[Osmeric]

Its how the majority of games are successful

I call bullshit on this claim.

[Hold]

I call bullshit on this claim.

Then show your work...

If catering to hardcore or higher end players isn't the best way to do things why is there such a void of success for online multiplayer games that don't do that?

Even casual friendly games like final fantasy online balance their classes around the top end. I feel like this is the old shadowlands argument. People invent a majority that doesn't exist to justify their own personal tastes and when a company takes a gamble on it they find that crowd to be illusionary.

[Glorious Leader]

Its how the majority of games are successful and seems a key part of multiplayer games.

.

Yea minecraft was really meant to be played for the elite.

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Then show your work...

If catering to hardcore or higher end players isn't the best way to do things why is there such a void of success for online multiplayer games that don't do that?

Even casual friendly games like final fantasy online balance their classes around the top end. I feel like this is the old shadowlands argument. People invent a majority that doesn't exist to justify their own personal tastes and when a company takes a gamble on it they find that crowd to be illusionary.

The invention here is that for the game to be successful it must expressly cater to the top end. You made a claim here that is on face absurd with no evidence to suggest its true but ask others to show their work...

[Hold]

Yea minecraft was really meant to be played for the elite.

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The invention here is that for the game to be successful it must expressly cater to the top end.

Minecraft I would argue isn't really designed to be a multiplayer game and its community there is rather small and specialized. I think for online multiplayer games that yes it must take the top end experience first and foremost otherwise it collapses. Look at heroes of the storm vs LoL or dota.

[Glorious Leader]

Then show your work...
.

This right here is bad faith. Offering a claim with no evidence, having somebody dispute it and then asking other people.to show their work.

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Minecraft I would argue isn't really designed to be a multiplayer game and its community there is rather small and specialized. I think for online multiplayer games that yes it must take the top end experience first and foremost otherwise it collapses. Look at heroes of the storm vs LoL or dota.

It is one of the most wildly successful multiplayer games.. it is not expressly competitive but multiplayer by no means has to be competitive. You want to dismiss minecraft because it has a tiny community and then offer hots as an example lol k...

[jeezusisacasual]

Wait people are about to really say speed running as the primary competition in this game? Good lord people need to feel justified for whatever reason i guess. WoW is about as competitive as GDQ pokemon runs ffs.

[Hold]

This right here is bad faith. Offering a claim with no evidence, having somebody dispute it and then asking other people.to show their work.

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It is one of the most wildly successful multiplayer games.. it is not expressly competitive but multiplayer by no means has to be competitive. You want to dismiss minecraft because it has a tiny community and then offer hots as an example lol k...

I mean my evidence is how every top played multiplayer online game from stream metrics and twitch are all competive online games designed around the top end... Proof is in the pudding as they say. I think casual games can and do exist but they exist mostly as personal single player games. As for minecraft...no its not one of the most successful online multiplayer games it has a very small community for how many copies of it exist.

[Le Conceptuel]

I really think it needs a reboot, but that's me.

20 years is a long ass time.

Ashes of Creation is making WoW look more and more like a mobile game with every monthly update.

And who knows if that game will actually be good, but it's hard to deny it doesn't look night and day more next gen than WoW in both fidelity and features.

I'm doubtful. Kickstarter MMOs aren't exactly a famously successful genre. They've evidently set their budget at $30 million, when most modern MMOs have budgets of hundreds of millions of dollars. That's less than half WoW's budget all the way during initial development, before marketing and maintenance over the first four years. This isn't quite an Elyria situation yet, and it looks really good from what I've seen, but I'm very skeptical.

[Hold]

I'm doubtful. Kickstarter MMOs aren't exactly a famously successful genre. They've evidently set their budget at $30 million, when most modern MMOs have budgets of hundreds of millions of dollars. That's less than half WoW's budget all the way during initial development, before marketing and maintenance over the first four years. This isn't quite an Elyria situation yet, and it looks really good from what I've seen, but I'm very skeptical.

I have had some fun with indie mmos but you can't expect AAA games from them. They fill super niche spots in the genre.

[Tyris Flare]

Are you guys really going to argue with Empower's 5th account making the same arguments ad nauseum over and over?

(the answer seems to be yes)

[WoWenjoyer]

Its how the majority of games are successful and seems a key part of multiplayer games.

You can argue not every game needs to be hardcore and I would agree but I can't really think of an example of a online multiplayer game that has been anywhere near as successful as those that do. You design for the peak and balence around it then you just strip it down for each easier difficulty.

Even WoW Vanilla was arguably ´´balanced´´ around the top players. However who did the game cater to? Obviously not top players.

Osmeric wrote the word ´´catering´´. He was never talking about balance.

Every argument you make is some kind of bad faith troll it is almost impressive.

[Hold]

Even WoW Vanilla was arguably ´´balanced´´ around the top players. However who did the game cater to? Obviously not top players.

Osmeric wrote the word ´´catering´´. He was never talking about balance.

Every argument you make is some kind of bad faith troll it is almost impressive.

I guess the issue is catering is such a vague term as to be next to useless in a discussion. WoW has most of its assets and resources invested into creating the outdoor world... does that mean they are catered to?

I don't know it seems rather clear to me he was talking about balance and system design.

[Osmeric]

If catering to hardcore or higher end players isn't the best way to do things why is there such a void of success for online multiplayer games that don't do that?

"All these doctors bleed their patients. If it didn't work, why would they do that?"

[Glorious Leader]

I mean my evidence is how every top played multiplayer online game from stream metrics and twitch are all competive online games designed around the top end... Proof is in the pudding as they say. I think casual games can and do exist but they exist mostly as personal single player games. As for minecraft...no its not one of the most successful online multiplayer games it has a very small community for how many copies of it exist.

Minecraft has more people watching it on twitch than either hots or wow and refutes literally every argument you make but you want to dismiss it because "it has a very small community for how many copies of it exist". Bad faith indeed.