Disc + mastery = shield spam dominant again

[G l o w y r m]

If Bliz doesn't want disc spamming shields they need to give us more spells or abilities that make use of absorption, or that tie together.

Lame EX: casting a direct healing spell makes you next PW:S absorb 20% more.

either way right now i feel like the spec is way to dependent on how good or bad PW:S.

This.

We need something else absorption like to work with or the spec will forever hinge on how powerful PW:S is. If it's not powerful, the spec really isn't that different.

BUT, to be honest, even before the buff, people were still spamming PW:S. As soon as you have the mana, stopping damage before it happens is always the best way to go. Disc is the only healer than can "heal" even when there is no damage going out.

[Deleted]

The disc tree was "broken" for the majority of WoW and judging from your point of view "not" fun to play.

You contradict yourself completely.......
IF you are so sold onFUN and ONLY fun, there is a very simple solution DONT spam PW:S.

As someone said YOUR argument is pretty moot:

"I dont wanna get fat so pls stop producing chocholate candy bars dear industrie because i am not strong enough to resist eating them"

JUST DONT EAT THEM and DONT force others who are abel to eat SOME to competely forgo them.

There is ONE essentila thing you fail to notice.

IF your all about "FUN" :

- Simply dont spam and play as if the PW:S buff never happened because its completely possible


IF your about rage and feeling gimped cause you play another healer and cant play as good as others like our poor cretz here:

- Learn to play and stop being childish , be happy that someone keeps the raid up cause honestly if your " miles" behind the disc as a druid heal your guild should be happy that the disc can compensate your incapability to play your class.


IF you dont wanna use a gimmick your offered simply DONT use it.

ITs perfectly fine to NOT PW:S spam and be a great healer if your just about "fun".

As for cretz STOP behaving like a child and you ont get treated as one .... simple

Just give everyone Martin Fury so you can one shot bosses.
If you dont like it just dont use it =.=

You can add almost anything to the game with that logic.

[[-Spiritus-]]

Pretty sure having 2 deaths this week vs 1 last week has more to do with people standing in black stuff and getting hit by frost orbs in p3 than it does with me doing 3k more hps. I don't think there is any propping up tiduz going on since our resto druid innervated our shadow priest instead of me btw. I don't see how having more mana for all the healers is costing the other healers anything, especially with resto druid mana nerfs I'm pretty sure they are quite happy to have 2 mana totems. Me doing more healing isn't hurting the other healers I can asurez you.

I'm not actually too sure what your trying to say in your post, I am getting a bit of a DISC>HOLY vibe since your linking our holy priests #'s. You should take into account other guilds parses like vodka/premo since my parses have been the highest for disc since I hit 80 and I'm not exactly the typical scenario.

The intention of this post isn't to blame you for anything. I don't blame you for what you are doing as it is your max HPS. I picked the H. Priest arbitrarily and did not mean it to be a Holy v. Disc issue.

By "propped" up I don't mean that the two MTTs are there specifically for you. It is, however, a large part of what makes your HPS possible. It is completely reasonable to run two MTTs, which is part of the problem with the current design [not MTT, but PW:S].

The point bringing up the deaths isn't to place the blame on them on PW:S spam, but to show that PW:S spam, while optimal HPS, cannot prevent death [I realize this is obvious, stating for clarity].

The overall purpose is to show that, while PW:S spam is a personal HPS increase, it is not necessarily an rHPS increase, and if one maintains the same number of healers it cannot be an rDPS increase [which is something a drastic personal HPS increase should allow]. By maintaining the same number of healers, one merely shifts the HPS numbers around.

The question becomes, then, is shifting HPS to a Disc priest via the power of PW:S spam, without increasing rHPS, actually worth such a dull playstyle that is against the explicit healing design goal for Cataclysm?

For fairness, I will analyze a few other top parses in subsequent posts.

[Deleted]

Make Soul Warding a one point talent, instead of 2. That would force you to wait around or cast something else.

[[-Spiritus-]]

You contradict yourself completely.......
IF you are so sold onFUN and ONLY fun, there is a very simple solution DONT spam PW:S.

I brought this up in another post, but would you suggest a Demo lock spam Soulfire from 100-0 if he found it to be the most fun, even though it is horribly sub-optimal for his spec and class?

The point is max performance should be rewarded via a robust spell selection, not by 111111111111111. This is a stated design goal for Cataclysm as presented by the developers.

My guild deserves the most optimal play I can provide by my class and spec, which at the moment is PW:S spam. I deserve, as a player, a robust playstyle while providing optimal play, something that PW:S spam does not provide. These statements are not mutually exclusive. They both can, and should, be satisfied by good design.

[TiduZ]

The point bringing up the deaths isn't to place the blame on them on PW:S spam, but to show that PW:S spam, while optimal HPS, cannot prevent death [I realize this is obvious, stating for clarity].

The overall purpose is to show that, while PW:S spam is a personal HPS increase, it is not a necessary rHPS increase when one maintains the same number of healers. It merely shifts numbers around.

The question becomes, then, is shifting HPS to a Disc priest via the power of PW:S spam, without increasing rHPS, actually worth such a dull playstyle that is against the explicit healing design goal for Cataclysm?.

You didn't clarify anything, I don't see what you mean by PW:S spam cannot prevent death. It can prevent death in the same way flash heal spam or divine light spam can with the added benefit that a gib that would do <30k overkill will actually not kill. If anything shield spam is better at preventing death than any other healing ability.

You are stating that my personal hps increase is not a raid hps increase, which is completely untrue. If we are talking about effective hps, then that is dictated by how much damage people take and how much they are healed for minus overheal. Yes the effective healing done by the raid will stay more or less the same each week as long as people take approximately the same damage, but hps will increase with improvements in gear and people playing better/healing for more. If I am covering a large portion of the healing, say 30%, it just makes it easier for other healers to heal the people who need special attention, ie: more than a shield provides.

I personally find shield spam pretty fun, I found the old healing style pretty fun too although pw:s was undertuned. The other healers in my guild aren't afking or tabbing out while we clear heroic modes, they are healing just as they would before and hopefully with less wipes because my throughput has increased from the patch. Pretty sure everyone is happy with it on my end but you can never please everyone.

[[-Spiritus-]]

You didn't clarify anything, I don't see what you mean by PW:S spam cannot prevent death. It can prevent death in the same way flash heal spam or divine light spam can with the added benefit that a gib that would do <30k overkill will actually not kill. If anything shield spam is better at preventing death than any other healing ability.

I meant in the specific example between the two parses. Of course PW:S is a powerful tool to prevent deaths and I would agree that it does it better than any other non-long CD ability, provided that the shield didn't prevent easily heal-able damage and WS prevents a PW:S when it is actually needed. However, in the cases of the two deaths in your parse, PW:S did not prevent them. Most likely they would have occurred regardless, though it is difficult to say for certain without a very detailed look at their deathlog.

You are stating that my personal hps increase is not a raid hps increase, which is completely untrue. If we are talking about effective hps, then that is dictated by how much damage people take and how much they are healed for minus overheal. Yes the effective healing done by the raid will stay more or less the same each week as long as people take approximately the same damage, but hps will increase with improvements in gear and people playing better/healing for more. If I am covering a large portion of the healing, say 30%, it just makes it easier for other healers to heal the people who need special attention, ie: more than a shield provides.

When shield spamming, the overall eHPS of the raid becomes closer to the HPS because proper shield spam should guarantee that all shields pop [per your example, ~30% of the raid's eHPS will directly be HPS]. I never argued that PW:S spam isn't effective, it most certainly is. My point with the comparison between the pre and post 3.0.6 kills is that the boost in personal HPS & eHPS did not end in a vastly different result, with the exception of the shift in eHPS from other healers to you.

As you gear up, PW:S spam will become more and more sustainable and both your HPS & eHPS will increase. Other healers will see an increase in HPS, but they will also see a decrease in eHPS, assuming that incoming damage is a constant for a particular fight, essentially wasting resources. When T12 opens, which will most likely result in higher incoming raid damage, these ratios will close again slightly, then widen again as gear is obtained. The point is that, for any given pull, there is a static eHPS that must be reached to counter raid damage. If one healer can mitigate ~30% of that damage, at an increasingly sustainable rate, what is the point in bringing 7 healers? Assuming two are tank healers, that leaves 4 healers to cover 15% each. This, to me, seems like a waste of HPS that could be converted into DPS.

I personally find shield spam pretty fun, I found the old healing style pretty fun too although pw:s was undertuned. The other healers in my guild aren't afking or tabbing out while we clear heroic modes, they are healing just as they would before and hopefully with less wipes because my throughput has increased from the patch. Pretty sure everyone is happy with it on my end but you can never please everyone.

I personally find shield spam to be mindless and boring. However, I find it to be that way because it is not robust. Because PW:S spam is not robust [i.e.- utilizing one ability to heal], it flies in the face of the stated Cataclysm healing design. It is not my place to tell you what is and is not fun. However, it is undeniable that PW:S spam is not robust.

All I am asking for is the product that was promised with the release of Cataclysm.

[jamesx]

How to nerf PWS without really nerfing it. IMO PWS strength comes from the fact that it doesn't overheal because it's pre-emptive - it "heals" as soon as damage is taken - by its nature, it gets in there before other healers.

1. Reduce duration to 12s (i.e. you can no longer load up the raid before pulls or as many people before an AOE burst).
2. Changing Improved Power Word: Shield (tier 1 Disc) from "Increases the damage absorbed by your Power Word: Shield by 20%." to "Your Power Word: Shield also heals the target for 20% of the absorption amount". i.e. the same as the Glyph (which might need to be "adjusted").

Then 40% of PWS would be reactive.

[Deleted]

12s duration would make it useless. DA already falls off far to much, we don't need another shield doing the same.

[Vashta]

Possible fix would be to decrease the initial amount absorbed by PW:S but as long as WS is on the target, direct heals increase the size of the bubble (or refresh if the bubble has popped) by a proportion of the amount healed. It would cause a problem with Rapture though.

[Deleted]

you can only have 1 power word shield up at a time?

[Deleted]

I suggest just leaving it alone - this whole 'lets fix PW:S is getting messy' - any nerfs to PW:S or added cooldowns/restrictions would make a mockery of mastery for Disc.

Another slight mana increase to PW:S would probably do the trick to prevent mass shielding or restrict the number of innervates one person can have in an encounter [unless you are a druid and its ur innervate] - but nerfing or setting restrictions on PW:S is crazy it will screw PVP and put us right back where we dont wanna be...an inbetween wannabe tank/raid healer ... may as well get a Holy pally to tank heal and disc reroll holy to raid heal. Or get the druid to stand there spamming Wild Growth with its 30% increased healing.

I dont shield spam - the other healers in my raid heal just the same as they always have done - the fact we have a bit more damage mitigation dosent mean bosses are faceroll. If someone is gonna stand in bad they are gonna do it regradless of wether they got a bubble or not.

[Memoryz]

That's rubbish, sorry mate.

Heroic Atramedes parse, so overpowered that they only use 2 healers. http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...e=3741#Genesiz

Have you even healed heroic atramedes?
It's a joke of a fight to heal.
Before you jump to conclusions, maybe you should think about these things.

---------- Post added 2011-02-11 at 11:25 AM ----------

Spiritus, what I don't understand is you weren't complaining before the patch when it was prayer of healing spam, why complain now? Have you played other healing classes? What you don't understand is no matter what happens, players will always dive back into using their more healing efficient spell.

---------- Post added 2011-02-11 at 11:27 AM ----------

Make Soul Warding a one point talent, instead of 2. That would force you to wait around or cast something else.

Also stop saying this rubbish, do you realize how clunky that'd make discipline play style? Id have to cast a shield, hit another spell, then cast another shield. That's annoying, not engaging. So please, drop talking about putting a cd on shield as a solution.

Most discipline priests are on par with other healers now. It's just Tiduz is an overgeared, very well played discipline priest and has topped meters since ToC. Stop comparing the spec as a whole to him, it's obnoxious.

[Preacherman]

To be honest, I am just happy to have my beloved spec actually mitigate damage. I NEVER want to be a handicapped Holy Priest wanna be again!! If spamming shields till next patch is my key to that then I will gladly do so.

Power Word: Barrier should have been our effective blanket shield, but thanks to design flaws it is not even mentioned once in this discussion. Potential fixes to a great but poorly executed design that might solve the whole 11111111111 but still keep us viable mitigators...

1) PW:B should have the same effect and strength as spamming multiple PW:S

2) PW:B Should have a bigger area of effect

3) PW:B should have a shorter cooldown.

4) They need to drastically increase the mana cost of both shields to make it more "situational" .vs "use all the time".

Effectively you will end up with the same results as we have now except you will use single target shielding at a relatively lesser cost for people taking extra damage and save PW:B for high raid damage times.

[Memoryz]

To be honest, I am just happy to have my beloved spec actually mitigate damage. I NEVER want to be a handicapped Holy Priest wanna be again!! If spamming shields till next patch is my key to that then I will gladly do so.

Power Word: Barrier should have been our effective blanket shield, but thanks to design flaws it is not even mentioned once in this discussion. Potential fixes to a great but poorly executed design that might solve the whole 11111111111 but still keep us viable mitigators...

1) PW:B should have the same effect and strength as spamming multiple PW:S

2) PW:B Should have a bigger area of effect

3) PW:B should have a shorter cooldown.

4) They need to drastically increase the mana cost of both shields to make it more "situational" .vs "use all the time".

Effectively you will end up with the same results as we have now except you will use single target shielding at a relatively lesser cost for people taking extra damage and save PW:B for high raid damage times.

The old PW: Barrier would've never worked.
I'm glad they changed it to what it is now. It's works amazingly in fights.

[Deleted]

Ok some conclusions.

PW:S on a few targets it NOT OP due to WS debuff.
Taking away PW:S disc have no way to push extreme HPS for short durations at the cost of mana so taking away power is bad.
Other classes have spammable abilities that could heal for extreme amounts if mana allowed.
Adding CD to shield would suck. We need to be able to apply it fast on a smaller number of targets.

With this in mind the only viable solution is to do what some have suggested and add a debuff for spamming shields that increate mana cost. The first stacks should give a very small penalty and then increate exponentially.
So something like 2%/5%/10%/20%/40%.

I really hope Blizzard is wise and do not just do any simple nerf of our shield because we really need it's power to be viable.

[Memoryz]

Ok some conclusions.

PW:S on a few targets it NOT OP due to WS debuff.
Taking away PW:S disc have no way to push extreme HPS for short durations at the cost of mana so taking away power is bad.
Other classes have spammable abilities that could heal for extreme amounts if mana allowed.
Adding CD to shield would suck. We need to be able to apply it fast on a smaller number of targets.

With this in mind the only viable solution is to do what some have suggested and add a debuff for spamming shields that increate mana cost. The first stacks should give a very small penalty and then increate exponentially.
So something like 2%/5%/10%/20%/40%.

I really hope Blizzard is wise and do not just do any simple nerf of our shield because we really need it's power to be viable.

Except that sort of solution heavily favors 10 man raids due to having to shield less people.
Honestly PW: Shield seems balanced looking at logs.

[Zyrus]

Why not limit PW:S to a certain number of targets, like chain heal, circle of healing, wild growth etc?
It would still be way more powerful, just on a smaller subset.
Spamming too many shields would then remove the first shield that's still active.
Sort of like 5/6 charges of the shield that can be up, and are refunded upon full absorption, or stolen from first shielded target.

[muto]

If Blizzard wants healing in Cataclysm to be harder then it was in Wrath throughout, then they are going to have to scale the cost of heals with gear or something or it's just going to be the same as it was in Wrath as people get better gear.

[Memoryz]

Why not limit PW:S to a certain number of targets, like chain heal, circle of healing, wild growth etc?
It would still be way more powerful, just on a smaller subset.
Spamming too many shields would then remove the first shield that's still active.
Sort of like 5/6 charges of the shield that can be up, and are refunded upon full absorption, or stolen from first shielded target.

You really can't compare shielding to smart heals like Chain heal, Circle of Healing, and Wild Growth.
Limiting shields ruins the whole aspect of pre-shielding, which is a main role for a discipline priest.