Disc + mastery = shield spam dominant again

[Memoryz]

Check some of the logs that have been posted. Disc priests are already hitting 75+% of their healing done in some fights via PW:S, so it isn't causing them to OOM. Do you not accept that this ability to spam PW:S will grow easier to do as we move past what is the first tier of content into gear that provides substantially higher mana pools and regen?

In almost full 372 gear.

[Deadkipper]

I don't think there should be a nerf to shields or a CD added. You may as well just go holy if you want that. And adding a system to track the number of shields within a certain time period would probably be too complicated.

Couldn't there just be some sort of exhaustion from MTT, like the is for Hero, to prevent abuse?

[Underskilled]

Perhaps, a way to move disc priests away from shield spam, and towards using other heals.


Change their mastery to the Divine Aegis Effect: Your critical heals place a shield on the target, absorbing damage equal to 30% (increased by mastery) of the heal.

Then, replace the Divine Aegis talent with Improved Divine Aegis - Your non critical spells have a 15/30/45% chance for Divine Aegis to activate.

This way, Disc priests are still all about putting shields on their targets, but through using regular heals now.

[cretz]

In almost full 372 gear.

so it's fair for all the other healers with 372 gear ? everyone will get to that point with the following tiers so rather fix it now then then , face it , there is a problem , i would rather have it fix now then later...

---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 06:32 PM ----------

Perhaps, a way to move disc priests away from shield spam, and towards using other heals.


Change their mastery to the Divine Aegis Effect: Your critical heals place a shield on the target, absorbing damage equal to 30% (increased by mastery) of the heal.

Then, replace the Divine Aegis talent with Improved Divine Aegis - Your non critical spells have a 15/30/45% chance for Divine Aegis to activate.

This way, Disc priests are still all about putting shields on their targets, but through using regular heals now.

This is a post on the blizzard forums posted by VALOEL, i think it's a nice solution to the problem =):


Assume the existence of a debuff called ... "Decaying Soul", for example.

Decaying Soul: Reduces the effectiveness of your next PW:S by 15%. Lasts 8 seconds. Stacks 4 times.

You, the priest, get this debuff the very first time you cast PW:S. Casting continuously PW:S while having this debuff will not refresh the 8 seconds timer, instead, it will stack the debuff up to 4 times. That means that if a priest decides to roll 5 consecutive PW:S within the 8 seconds duration of Decaying Soul, the shields will work as follows:

1st shield: 100% effectiveness
2nd shield: 85% effectiveness
3rd shield: 70% effectiveness
4rd shield: 55% effectiveness
5th shield: 40% effectiveness



Of course any shield beyond the 5th, before the debuff expires, will continue to work at 40% effectiveness. This reduces the efficiency of blanketing and also gives a strategic touch to the way a priest applies PW:S to more than 1 target.

That way, if you wanna roll PW:S on multiple players knowing that AoE damage is incoming, you will have to consider shielding the 4 most wounded allies first. This mechanic becomes interesting, while still reducing the efficiency of PW:S blanketing, even in groups that run with more than 1 disc priest.

[bigjenk]

You don't even need a few MTTs to get away with it. I never oomed on heroic magmaw, and I pretty much spammed shields the entire duration of the fight.

---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 07:27 AM ----------

ACTUALLY, it was fairly balanced during that content, but whatever floats your boat.

Shields never have been or will be balanced if they are competitive as they give effective healing as well as increasing a persons margin for error and survivability. The difference between being able to heal damage and being able not to take it is huge.

---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 06:34 PM ----------

Also side note disc priests are now unkillable in low level bgs without dispels due to shields absorbing about the same as if they were 80k shields at higher levels.

---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 06:43 PM ----------

The solution seems simple and already in game on another spell. Simply adapt the arcane blast mechanic to disc spells.

[Deleted]

If a cooldown is added to PW:S [which is a crazy idea] then the whole disc tree may as well be scrapped.

Strength of Soul will become less valuable if PW:S had an enforced cooldown. PW:S is very powerful - and yea - give me MTT x 2 and 2 x Innervates per encounter and I will spam PW:S if needs be - just as much as the Holy Paladin standing next to me will be able to spam Holy Radiance or the Druid Wild Growth.

Each healing class has their strengths and weaknesses - calling for a nerfbat this early on is way too soon. Theres so many encounters in Cata which favour 1 spec over another - Holy vs Disc on Chimeron for example.

Im my raid last night I noticed ALL the healers were putting out much bigger numbers. Its not just disc that has improved so i think a little perspective is needed here.

Nerfing PW:S will not only kill PVP but will harm Disc's raid viability once again.

[Deleted]

so it's fair for all the other healers with 372 gear ? everyone will get to that point with the following tiers so rather fix it now then then , face it , there is a problem , i would rather have it fix now then later...

---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 06:32 PM ----------



This is a post on the blizzard forums posted by VALOEL, i think it's a nice solution to the problem =):


Assume the existence of a debuff called ... "Decaying Soul", for example.

Decaying Soul: Reduces the effectiveness of your next PW:S by 15%. Lasts 8 seconds. Stacks 4 times.

You, the priest, get this debuff the very first time you cast PW:S. Casting continuously PW:S while having this debuff will not refresh the 8 seconds timer, instead, it will stack the debuff up to 4 times. That means that if a priest decides to roll 5 consecutive PW:S within the 8 seconds duration of Decaying Soul, the shields will work as follows:

1st shield: 100% effectiveness
2nd shield: 85% effectiveness
3rd shield: 70% effectiveness
4rd shield: 55% effectiveness
5th shield: 40% effectiveness



Of course any shield beyond the 5th, before the debuff expires, will continue to work at 40% effectiveness. This reduces the efficiency of blanketing and also gives a strategic touch to the way a priest applies PW:S to more than 1 target.

That way, if you wanna roll PW:S on multiple players knowing that AoE damage is incoming, you will have to consider shielding the 4 most wounded allies first. This mechanic becomes interesting, while still reducing the efficiency of PW:S blanketing, even in groups that run with more than 1 disc priest.

With every post it becomes more obvious that you have NO CLUE at all about disc priest and their mechanic.

The stacking debuff solution is just pathetic...... maybe add it to rejuv too then ... and i bet you would be the first to scream and whine if someone dared to propose that.......

WIth all your hate towards disc and their new buff which made them able to raidheal for the first time in cata by using multiple shields, its pretty obvious you play a druid heal and are angry that disc outheals you .....

Cause if you are a tank like you pretend to be why would you bother?
As long as your group stays alieve theres no reason to complain, people only complain if they "feel" weaker and worse in performance in comparison to others.

[cretz]

If a cooldown is added to PW:S [which is a crazy idea] then the whole disc tree may as well be scrapped.

Strength of Soul will become less valuable if PW:S had an enforced cooldown. PW:S is very powerful - and yea - give me MTT x 2 and 2 x Innervates per encounter and I will spam PW:S if needs be - just as much as the Holy Paladin standing next to me will be able to spam Holy Radiance or the Druid Wild Growth.



Each healing class has their strengths and weaknesses - calling for a nerfbat this early on is way too soon. Theres so many encounters in Cata which favour 1 spec over another - Holy vs Disc on Chimeron for example.

Im my raid last night I noticed ALL the healers were putting out much bigger numbers. Its not just disc that has improved so i think a little perspective is needed here.

Nerfing PW:S will not only kill PVP but will harm Disc's raid viability once again.

PW:S is op in almost all the encounter not only in those 3, no class should top healing meters by spamming 1 spell ... if you would want to spam pw:s as it is now you should run oom fast, what are some people here not getting , no spell should be that viable in pve from the cataclysm perspective, that is what blizzard stated, they want you to make decisions about your mana pool not just rolfspam 1 button and not go oom. are we clear?

pw:s is ovp as it is now

[Deleted]

PW:S is op in almost all the encounter not only in those 3, no class should top healing meters by spamming 1 spell ... if you would want to spam pw:s as it is now you should run oom fast, what are some people here not getting , no spell should be that viable in pve from the cataclysm perspective, that is what blizzard stated, they want you to make decisions about your mana pool not just rolfspam 1 button and not go oom. are we clear?

pw:s is ovp as it is now

Have you played a disc priest ?

Definately not, since you would realize you CANT spamm PW:S witout running OOM so would you please so kind and stop that bulll...... about spaming PW:S without going OOM.

As long as you dont have any clue about disc mechanic mana cost etc copmared to other healers go back and learn to play you druid heal.
Or maybe flame the holy pala forum and request a beacon nerf cause thats a no brainer too..................

Its so childish.... QQ the other healer is better than me NERF NERF, oh now i am better than the other healer but dont you DARE to nerf me ...............

[Memoryz]

so it's fair for all the other healers with 372 gear ? everyone will get to that point with the following tiers so rather fix it now then then , face it , there is a problem , i would rather have it fix now then later...

---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 06:32 PM ----------



This is a post on the blizzard forums posted by VALOEL, i think it's a nice solution to the problem =):


Assume the existence of a debuff called ... "Decaying Soul", for example.

Decaying Soul: Reduces the effectiveness of your next PW:S by 15%. Lasts 8 seconds. Stacks 4 times.

You, the priest, get this debuff the very first time you cast PW:S. Casting continuously PW:S while having this debuff will not refresh the 8 seconds timer, instead, it will stack the debuff up to 4 times. That means that if a priest decides to roll 5 consecutive PW:S within the 8 seconds duration of Decaying Soul, the shields will work as follows:

1st shield: 100% effectiveness
2nd shield: 85% effectiveness
3rd shield: 70% effectiveness
4rd shield: 55% effectiveness
5th shield: 40% effectiveness



Of course any shield beyond the 5th, before the debuff expires, will continue to work at 40% effectiveness. This reduces the efficiency of blanketing and also gives a strategic touch to the way a priest applies PW:S to more than 1 target.

That way, if you wanna roll PW:S on multiple players knowing that AoE damage is incoming, you will have to consider shielding the 4 most wounded allies first. This mechanic becomes interesting, while still reducing the efficiency of PW:S blanketing, even in groups that run with more than 1 disc priest.

Terrible solution.
Ruins the whole aspect of preshielding for damage.

[cretz]

Have you played a disc priest ?

Definately not, since you would realize you CANT spamm PW:S witout running OOM so would you please so kind and stop that bulll...... about spaming PW:S without going OOM.

As long as you dont have any clue about disc mechanic mana cost etc copmared to other healers go back and learn to play you druid heal.
Or maybe flame the holy pala forum and request a beacon nerf cause thats a no brainer too..................

Its so childish.... QQ the other healer is better than me NERF NERF, oh now i am better than the other healer but dont you DARE to nerf me ...............

please can you stop atacking me ok? bring facts to the table also please? check the logs mentioned before in this topic, you will find that the preists did not go oom while spamming pw:S... ok since we cleared that pw:s needs a nerf

---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 07:03 PM ----------

Terrible solution.
Ruins the whole aspect of preshielding for damage.

ok then make pw:s absorb less or cost more mana ? ok with you, or you are fine how disc preist is op right now? ok i understand... just leave the game imbalanced as it is right now in the healing part, who cares? disc preists prolly don't want it to change, tho some on the blizz forums want it to get nerfed since they want to be in line with the other healers, prolly u don't care about the other players , that is what i get from your atitude =)...

gl hf

[[-Spiritus-]]

I guess there are quite a few people not reading the OP. Let me summarize things:

(1) The issue is not about PW:S throughput
(2) The issue is not about the ability to cast successive PW:S
(3) The issue IS about PW:S being the right answer to nearly every meaningful damage pattern AND the ability to sustain this choice with obtainable gear and basic external regen (1or2 MTT, 1or 2 HoH, Replen, pot, etc.).
(4) The further issue is that the cost of PW:S is static, while sustainability will continue to increase via greater INT & SPI, opening up this playstyle to all progression levels and raid sizes in T12.

Now, if you ENJOY bubblespam, then this is a good thing for you. However, the problem is that it isn't the stated design intention as provided by the developers.

The argument whether bubblespam is or is not enjoyable is a matter of opinion, thus it can never have any serious meaning, besides attempting to persuade those that have never tried it. My opinion is that is is horribly dull and not fun. The reason why I can argue this from a position of strength is because it is shared by the developers, as per their last communication on the subject.

Hopefully the thread on the official boards will prompt some sort of response to gauge if their design intent has change, or they had not thought PW:S spam to be sustainable given the 30% mana increase.

---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 01:08 PM ----------

Definately not, since you would realize you CANT spamm PW:S witout running OOM so would you please so kind and stop that bulll...... about spaming PW:S without going OOM.

This is complete misinformation. I tested PW:S spam yesterday on several fights and did not OOM. All it took was one MTT (dropped twice), a feral innervate, and coordinated HoH with three priests + fiend & a regular mana pot. This is a completely reasonable external/internal regen model.

Maybe people aren't getting how its done. Its not like you start the fight and cast PW:S every GCD for the duration of the fight. You precast PW:S before a raid spike then continue to cast if its ticking, stopping when the ticks stop. You then can dump an IF PoH on the lowest group and go back to a more efficient spot healing, making sure to pop rapture every 12sec. You repeat the process for every spike.

[Lionor]

I honestly can't understand why all the fuss?

If you don't enjoy shield spamming then why on earth would you do it? It might be "highest" HPS but hell, healing is not about topping any kind of chart. It's definitely not efficient currently (doable =/= efficient =/= viable) as it requires very specific raid composition and you can simply avoid it at no cost.

I have personally never used shield spam even back in WOTLK and never had any problem with other people using it. I don't see why a buff to our defining spell raises so many QQ in our own community. I mean it is the very same community and people that have been crying for the terrible status PW:S was in prior to 4.0.6. Can't you just be happy you got what you asked for?

And no I don't want to be an arcane mage version of a healer, mana management is enough on its own as it is. Personally I find it a terrible idea!

[Deleted]

please can you stop atacking me ok? bring facts to the table also please? check the logs mentioned before in this topic, you will find that the preists did not go oom while spamming pw:S... ok since we cleared that pw:s needs a nerf [COLOR="red"]

Thats so typicall..... just using some numbers from logs without any knowledge of the facts., like how many inervates and mana tide totemes were used ?
I can spam rejuv with my druid all day if i keep getting innervate and mana tide or replenishment.........

Your obsession to get PW:S nerfed just shows your angry cause you got outhealed by a disc.........

And dont you pretend you care about the other healers like shaman or pally or holy priest in comparison to disc , you ONLY compare them to druid healers which is another point that unmasks you as an angry druid heal......

[[-Spiritus-]]

If you don't enjoy shield spamming then why on earth would you do it? It might be "highest" HPS but hell, healing is not about topping any kind of chart. It's definitely not efficient currently (doable =/= efficient =/= viable) as it requires very specific raid composition and you can simply avoid it at no cost.

Would you suggest a demo lock spam Soulfire from 100-0 because he enjoys it better than the proper DPS rotation?

I will give my guild the best possible HPS I can because it is my job to be most effective. If the fight can end before I completely OOM and I can increase my HPS by damn near 6k, it is the most optimal play. Spamming shields on the raid on raid wide hits allows all the other healers to be more efficient and OOM less, which gives them more leeway for when mistakes happen.

The effectiveness cannot be in question. The question is fun. For me, it simply isn't.

Also, it does not take a "very specific" raid comp. In my previous post I explained what mana tools I used on fights to not go OOM. It is very pedestrian.

What many disc priests wanted with the change to PW:S was to make it a cast worth casting, not the only cast worth casting.

---------- Post added 2011-02-10 at 01:28 PM ----------

Thats so typicall..... just using some numbers from logs without any knowledge of the facts., like how many inervates and mana tide totemes were used ?

Tiduz had 2 MTTs that were each dropped twice. It is not abnormal to have two shaman in the group. He received a feral innervate, not uncommon. The rest of the regen came from personal sources.

I performed multiple successful shield spams that bumped my HPS by nearly 6k. I only had 1 MTT dropped twice, a feral innervate, and a coordinated hymn + fiend with 2 other priest. Not that uncommon.

[cretz]

Thats so typicall..... just using some numbers from logs without any knowledge of the facts., like how many inervates and mana tide totemes were used ?
I can spam rejuv with my druid all day if i keep getting innervate and mana tide or replenishment.........

Your obsession to get PW:S nerfed just shows your angry cause you got outhealed by a disc.........

And dont you pretend you care about the other healers like shaman or pally or holy priest in comparison to disc , you ONLY compare them to druid healers which is another point that unmasks you as an angry druid heal......

for you to know i just play casual as a tank now, stoped raiding and everthing after wotlk, it's true i used to heal as a druid in wotlk and i say this is what disc are doing , the same think as druids in wotlk and prolly as most of the healers, 1 or 2 spells all the way for the win... nocturna you should stop atacking me again like i said =), i don't like people telling things about me if they don't know who i am or what i do , what i play and so... stop beeing a d***head ok?i tend to think that you are a disc preist that dosen't give a crap about the game and only want to be 1 st on the healing meter and have an easy job doing it , just , just read what other people say and accept the fact that pw:s is op...

[Tavin]

Cretz, you're not a priest are you? You seem extremely clueless about priests and disc in particular

[cretz]

Cretz, you're not a priest are you? You seem extremely clueless about priests and disc in particular

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...1750200?page=3
then every preist in there is clueless about their class, thanks for another atack
i usualy do reasearch about stuff before i start posting so please give me a break ....

gl hf

[[-Spiritus-]]

Cretz, you're not a priest are you? You seem extremely clueless about priests and disc in particular

Good lord, man. Read the posts.

[...] it's true i used to heal as a druid in wotlk [...]

[Memoryz]

The problem is, people are comparing logs to Tiduz. He's in nearly BiS heroic gear, chain fed innervates, two mana tide totems, and a belf racial returning over 30k mana on fights. Discipline does well with one on the raid, add two and their efficiency fades, why? Because all the other tools discipline has to offer are lack luster. The healing power of our other heals typically don't do much and absorption from shielding is really what makes the spec. It's been like this for a long while, and Im surprised to see people complaining about it now instead of in the past.

Stop comparing all discipline priests to one guy geared to the teeth. Power Word: Shield spam isn't as easy to make it out to be. If you're doing hardmodes, you'd understand the vast mana ineffciency it has and how difficult it is to manage your mana by spamming power word: shield. Without innervates, and mana tide totems, it's very tasking and you have to make extreme great use of your external mana regen cooldowns.

Most discipline priests are pretty on par with other healers in logs except Tiduz and a few others. The only thing I'd see them doing is reducing Power Word: Shield's strength by 20% or so.