[Priest] Hit Cap FAQ

[CaseyTheRetard]

If everyone had the same abilities, computers, gear, and internet connection then you are correct. However, the whole reason this is a "debate" at all is because how much these things affect people is different for each person. Also, unless a person has 372 gear those stat weights for them will vary. Also, SimC is great for getting a feel for the way things should play out, however actual results in game can vary. The only way for a person to know how much hit cap or not will affect them is to try it.

Bah, this is why I don't write guides, I'm horrible at making my conclusions clear. My point was not to show that hitcap vs. not-hitcap makes no difference for all players, which I agree is untrue for all the reasons you state, but to show that there is no clear theoretical advantage to either strategy. If simulations showed that, for example, hitcap priority was 5% more DPS but I personally did more DPS with haste priority, I would assume that I'm playing incorrectly. The theory shows that whether you choose to prioritize haste over hitcap or hitcap over haste you are not somehow gimping your DPS. The correct choice is truly specific to each player/connection/UI.

[Arlee]

I think a note about switching Hit for other secondary stats should be added after you mention the ilvl comparison for Int priority. For this tier, and likely later tiers, haste will scale better than hit, which is why the hit cap is such a big issue to begin with. We wouldn't consider going under hit cap if it was the secondary stat that scaled best (unless it was a choice of about 16.97% or 17.03%). However, newer priests may misunderstand and interpret this issue as hit scaling less well than crit or mastery at some special magic numbers, or that the haste "bumps" (not plateaus) we get mean hit will be way more valuable at certain levels of haste.

Basically, at least for now, spriests that go under hit cap should only be doing so to increase haste and Int/SP. While this is a more confusing choice between items with spirit and crit & items with haste and mastery, it makes a much more straightforward decision for items that have haste or spirit and those that don't. It's also important to know to reforge for haste and spirit and never out of them.

I am actually curious to see how this will play out in the next tier of gear and I am waiting to see the info before I add something about that. Blizz was also planning on making hit scale each tier of content (meaning it will take more hit to get 17%), so I am waiting to see if anything happens with that. Basically, I shied away from covering that aspect mostly because there is a fair amount of chance that will change soon anyways. So, it's on the list for adding after 4.2

As for mentioning spirit=hit... at the risk of sounding like an elitist jerk... my honest opinion is if you don't know that than you shouldn't be worrying about getting hit cap or not because you probably have other basics you need to get under your belt first. This wasn't intended as a guide for beginners, but more of a way to consolidate information about the hit cap and how it affects us.

Bah, this is why I don't write guides, I'm horrible at making my conclusions clear. My point was not to show that hitcap vs. not-hitcap makes no difference for all players, which I agree is untrue for all the reasons you state, but to show that there is no clear theoretical advantage to either strategy. If simulations showed that, for example, hitcap priority was 5% more DPS but I personally did more DPS with haste priority, I would assume that I'm playing incorrectly. The theory shows that whether you choose to prioritize haste over hitcap or hitcap over haste you are not somehow gimping your DPS. The correct choice is truly specific to each player/connection/UI.

Oh I see. I'll review what I have because that was the point I was trying to get across overall. I wasn't meaning to sound like I was advocating one way over the other. Just sort of layout the honest facts about hit cap.

[CaseyTheRetard]

Blizz was also planning on making hit scale each tier of content (meaning it will take more hit to get 17%), so I am waiting to see if anything happens with that.

If they change how hit rating scales it would effect a lot more of the game than simply current-tier raiders (read "unintended side effects"). Casters would value hit less than we do now if each individual point of hit rating contributed less hit chance. Devaluing the rating like that would make hit less desirable in later tiers, instead of more desirable as intended. Blizzard would more likely introduce a zone-wide debuff (Firelands Radiance!) that reduces player chance to hit with spells by x%.

In any case, the devs haven't mentioned hit/expertise scaling at all since early beta; I'm thinking they changed their minds about it.

[Solia]

You are thinking of it wrong. The original intent was to have more Hit% req to cap versus higher tier bosses (eg. 18%, 19%, 20%...) not have each hit rating be worth less hit.

But, yes, there has been no mention of it from blues at all.

[Arlee]

Updated with a few new points and did some clarification on some things.

[Kelesti]

So yeah, because I'm a mod, and I can do these sort of things... especially when requested, the name of this thread's been changed to be a little more reflective of the content.

[Arlee]

Thanks Kel <3
Of course! <3 -- Kel

[Arlee]

Updated with some info about how some addons fail to recognize a missed dot right away.

[Arlee]

Updated with my personal 4.2 speculations

[Arlee]

Updated for 4.2

[Zuziza]

Lower ilvl gear with hit is almost always a worse choice than higher ilvl gear without hit.

Often during raiding because loot is random, we are put in positions where we have to compare a higher ilvl piece without hit to a lower ilvl item with hit. The reason the higher ilvl piece will almost always be a better choice is that the higher ilvl piece will have more int. Int is by far our most important stat (normalized values int at 1 and any other stat at 0.4 something). For this reason having the mentality of "I will never go below hit cap ever" can cost you.

This point gets slightly murky depending on your abilities and if you start dropping too low on hit cap. A good idea is to figure out a range you are comfortable with having your hit at. If you are less that 1% under hit cap though, most fights you won't have any misses at all. It is a numbers game though. This is also a bit less important in the current tier becuase the majority of our spirit/hit gear is going to be coming from craftables/vendors.

Actually, I think this issue is more relevant in Firelands. Since the only spirit drop we can get is a random enchant helm, and the number of hit/haste items is low, it's very likely that we would have this situation for any desirable raid drop if we stacked up on haste/spirit gear in 4.1. Basically, if we want to minimize the drops in hit with an upgrade, we'll have to work to get the vendor and crafted gear on the side so our hit doesn't drop below our comfort zone; reforging can only do so much.

Not saying it's a huge inconvenience, just thinking that this is going to happen more often than it had before. The way you worded it seemed off to me.

[Arlee]

Actually, I think this issue is more relevant in Firelands. Since the only spirit drop we can get is a random enchant helm, and the number of hit/haste items is low, it's very likely that we would have this situation for any desirable raid drop if we stacked up on haste/spirit gear in 4.1. Basically, if we want to minimize the drops in hit with an upgrade, we'll have to work to get the vendor and crafted gear on the side so our hit doesn't drop below our comfort zone; reforging can only do so much.

Not saying it's a huge inconvenience, just thinking that this is going to happen more often than it had before. The way you worded it seemed off to me.

Hmm... that is certainly possible. Seeing as we'll be waiting for shards to upgrade the vendor items and craftables can't be upgraded at all. I was mostly just thinking about getting those pieces in some ways is easier than waiting for the loots gods to smile at you. I will reword that a bit. I meant more that once you get the 378 gear and other 378 gear drops you wouldn't normally switch out a hit piece for something else and the same for once you get the heroic pieces.

[Zuziza]

I meant more that once you get the 378 gear and other 378 gear drops you wouldn't normally switch out a hit piece for something else and the same for once you get the heroic pieces.

Definitely true. The 378's that do have hit will have higher amounts, making the switch a bit easier as well. Reforging can take care of the rest.

[Worshaka]

What about the fact that MB does a lot of damage and after 4.2 it does a larger % of our damage than before?

Yes missing a 3 orb crit MB would seriously fail.

This is misleading. The combat table doesn't work in a way most people percieve it. Most people would assume that the game does some sort of role to see if a spell hits and then does another roll to see if it crits. Thats not how it works, there is one roll and the outcome determines if it hits/misses/crits. When you increase your hit your are increasing the portion of the combat table that hits while pushing miss off the table. That means in the context of this discussion the only alternative to missing a 3 orb MB would be that it hits for normal damage... if the roll determined the 3 orb MB crits then it would crit and your hit chance doesn't factor into that outcome at all.

[Deleted]

This is misleading. The combat table doesn't work in a way most people percieve it. Most people would assume that the game does some sort of role to see if a spell hits and then does another roll to see if it crits. Thats not how it works, there is one roll and the outcome determines if it hits/misses/crits. When you increase your hit your are increasing the portion of the combat table that hits while pushing miss off the table. That means in the context of this discussion the only alternative to missing a 3 orb MB would be that it hits for normal damage... if the roll determined the 3 orb MB crits then it would crit and your hit chance doesn't factor into that outcome at all.

i understood it to be that's how it works for melee

for spells it just goes;
does it hit?
if yes;
does it crit?

which is why if you run with 7% hit (and thus 10% chance to miss a raid boss) and you have 25% crit you'll see you miss ~10% of spells. and 25% of the spells that land will crit (roughly ofc due to RNG, but with a large enough sample size this is what you'll see)
so yes, you could say that 25% crit isn't actually 25% crit if you aren't hitcapped, and yes increasing your hit would also increase the number of crits per casts, but having 100% crit does not mean you can't miss (gogo alys with >25% crit base and not hitcapped for proof)

[Kelesti]

That means in the context of this discussion the only alternative to missing a 3 orb MB would be that it hits for normal damage... if the roll determined the 3 orb MB crits then it would crit and your hit chance doesn't factor into that outcome at all.

Incorrect. Spells use the two-roll system. Melee use the one roll system, but it doesn't work like this for them either.

Miss takes priority over glancing blow (which is melee only, but can't be mitigated by any means), then crit, which takes priority over regular hit.

Back to casters though, spec out of Twisted Faith for this, and replace any hit gear with either a spirit equivalent, or a peice that has neither. Start spamming the Mind Spike burst rotation on dummies. Check your Mind Blasts out. Sure, pretty much every Mind Blast that lands will crit. But the misses on your Mind Blast will still be 17% of the casts.

It's a two roll system. Getting more crit does not outweigh hit (Disclaimer: pre-cap), nor does it have anything to do with your miss chance.

[CaseyTheRetard]

Incorrect. Spells use the two-roll system. Melee use the one roll system, but it doesn't work like this for them either.

Nitpicking for clarity: Autoattacks ("white damage") use the single-roll system. Spells and special attacks ("yellow damage") use a two-roll system. I won't comment on ranged attacks since I don't remember.

[Arlee]

I have been on vacation and other people covered it, but I figured I would put this link about Spell Hit for reference