Strength of Soul debate

[Deleted]

The funny thing about Inner Focus, it doesn't make the heal bigger. So how would having it on cooldown stop a Priest from being able to reach for a bigger heal? Greater Heal + Inner Focus = Greater Heal without. Sure it's a higher crit chance, but chance is still RNG, Inner Focus doesn't guarantee a crit (unlike Paladins).

I didn't say it made it bigger, I said it made it free (which it does unless they stealth nerfed IF and I didn't notice).

The rubbish value of being a tank healer without SoS is that you're limiting your options

For me, it would be putting points in a talent that I would rarely use. I don't cast enough GHs (or FHs or Heals) for SoS to make any real difference to my throughput. Speccing SoS wouldn't really open up any more shield opportunities as it wouldn't be proccing. I find that more frequent penance and big filler heals from atonement more than make up for the lost shields.

Also I'm not only tank healing, I like the ability to flex to raid healing without having to run two pve specs.

[[-Spiritus-]]

He's of the mindset that his Holy Fire (the one that's going to be missing the tank a heckuva lot more in Firelands) is enough.

And sure, to 3-heal normal content, he might be right.

I don't think this thread is going anywhere constructive anymore. I also think you knew that and dropped a tac nuke on the whole thing.

On a topic far more relevant to my current interest, I like the previous/old/throwback avatar better. This one, not so much.

[Deleted]

A bit OT but just FYI, pain sup is off gcd (as are AA and PI). I think PWB is also off gcd but I'm not sure about that one.

I'm pretty sure PS isn't, but I could be wrong there. PI and AA definitely are (as is IF) - I have AA and IF macroed into heals for that very reason.

---------- Post added 2011-06-09 at 05:54 PM ----------

Right, but... it is rubbish to be a tank healer w/o SoS. Think of it this way. PW:S is an instant cast GH that never overheals with a 15sec CD. You have a talent that drops said CD to 7.5sec by casting two heals, FHs, or GHs during the CD. You seriously cannot see how unbelievably powerful that is for single target healing?

I can... but I can also see that there's more than one way to heal a tank. I don't think SoS is a bad spec, far from it, I just don't think it's mandatory as some are suggesting.

[Kelesti]

I don't think this thread is going anywhere constructive anymore. I also think you knew that and dropped a tac nuke on the whole thing.

*shrug*

On a topic far more relevant to my current interest, I like the previous/old/throwback avatar better. This one, not so much.

Don't think I'll be keeping this one for long, don't worry.

[Deleted]

He's of the mindset that his Holy Fire (the one that's going to be missing the tank a heckuva lot more in Firelands) is enough.

And sure, to 3-heal normal content, he might be right.

Speculating about firelands isn't very interesting - if atonement is missing the tank a lot there then I'll swap to SoS spec. In curretn content however atonement doesn't miss the tank that much.

As for 3 healed normals - heroics these days dear. Works fine for 2 healed normals too fwiw.

[[-Spiritus-]]

Also I'm not only tank healing, I like the ability to flex to raid healing without having to run two pve specs.

Can you tank heal w/o SoS? Yes. However, to argue that you are "more than making up" for lost shields by using atonement as a primary filler [the same atonement that could prefer to hit the huntard's warpstalker instead of the tank] to reduce the CD on Penance is silly.

Now, if you are gonna argue that you have to keep a PvE Shadow spec for your raid, and you tank heal some fights, and you raid heal some fights, then I can maybe see not speccing SoS. However, when you are tank healing as a primary, leaning on Atonement as a filler is only gonna take you so far this expansion.

[Zuziza]

I've been watching this argument unfold, and I kept seeing quotes from Kel, but I couldn't find where Kel was. I was so confused. Then I saw that she changed her icon and now I feel like a dumbass. You're not the first, it's okay! -- <3 Kel

Bsck on topic, while I can see how Atonement healing CAN be useful for tank healing (as an old disc priest getting back into it), the simple fact that it won't always target the tank makes it too much of a gamble. In any fight where the raid periodically will take damage (just about every heroic fight, Omno normal, maloriak normal red, chimaeron normal, Halfus normal, Twins normal, council normal, chogall 2nd phase...) atonement is going to be unsuable because you risk the heal not going to the tank. In heroic fights (and chimaeron normal), it happens often enough that you can't be assigned to tank healing if you're atonement healing. A pally or a SoS priest would be far more reliable for tank healing in those instances.

[Kelesti]

In heroic fights (and chimaeron normal), it happens often enough that you can't be assigned to tank healing if you're atonement healing. A pally or a SoS priest would be far more reliable for tank healing in those instances.

Arguably enough, a Druid, Shaman, or even a Holy Priest would be a better tank healer there.

[Zuziza]

For me, it would be putting points in a talent that I would rarely use. I don't cast enough GHs (or FHs or Heals) for SoS to make any real difference to my throughput.

How can you heal without using the 3 direct healing spells that don't have CD's?

---------- Post added 2011-06-09 at 10:12 AM ----------

Arguably enough, a Druid, Shaman, or even a Holy Priest would be a better tank healer there.

Yeah, but I didn't want to push it. We have a disc priest (non-atonement), resto druid, and resto shaman in my group. Sick healing team.

[Verth Aeyta]

How can you heal without using the 3 direct healing spells that don't have CD's?

He should be using those direct heals and if he's not he's simply gimping himself. I know as a Disc spec even if I'm not on tank healing I'm still throwing a bubble on the tank for Rapture and then from time to time throwing in a Heal or GH in my down time on the tanks for good measure, so I don't know why he shouldn't be throwing in some direct heals in addition to bubble and some HF and Smites to get AA.

[Deleted]

How can you heal without using the 3 direct healing spells that don't have CD's?

By using spells with cooldowns? We're talking a handful of seconds, not 1 minute uber cooldowns here.

It doesn't work for everything - chim and al'akir are two notable examples. But then SoS doesn't really work that well for chim either due to shields being rather pointless on anything but the double hit tank. Al'akir I raid heal so not really had to worry about SoS or lack thereof.

A quick breakdown of tank healing on nef for instance (P1 only) - 26% atonement, 15% DA, 18% pw:s, 15% penance, 7.5% GH. Almost all of that was on the tank.

Would SoS get me a bit more throughout? Maybe. Do I care? No.
Atonement is viable for current tier and that's all I'm bothered about. I didn't spam PW:S when it was all the rage just after 4.0.6, despite it being higher throughput, so I'm not going to play a style I find less enjoyable for a gain to throughput I don't need now.

nb: My second spec is a pvp spec which ironically does have SoS. I manage with 1 raiding spec, as intended by blizzard.

[[-Spiritus-]]

Would SoS get me a bit more throughout? Maybe. Do I care? No.
Atonement is viable for current tier and that's all I'm bothered about. I didn't spam PW:S when it was all the rage just after 4.0.6, despite it being higher throughput, so I'm not going to play a style I find less enjoyable for a gain to throughput I don't need now.

This is a far different statement than:

I tank heal with atonement, no SoS. It's not really a big deal whether you have it or not - most of my healing still comes from atonement and penance, not from shielding the tank. Holy fire landing 20k+ heals for 1.5k mana is pretty hard to beat for sustainable throughput.

I'm not sure that being able to instantly shield the tank is that relevant anyway. If his health is dropping fast I'm more likely to use the gcd for pain supp than shield, and then burn a flash heal (lots of atonement means IF is often off cooldown so that flash is free).

The fact is that SoS is a lot more throughput for tank healing. It is a big deal whether a tank healer has it or not. Holy Fire is nice until it heals the bloodworm instead of the tank. Being able to instantly shield the tank is absolutely relevant. If health is dropping fast, you should have already cast PS. A tank's health shouldn't "magically" start dropping fast unless the tank or you has done something wrong. Also PW:S>FH for "health is dropping fast." If your tank really starts taking a beating, and you have SoS, you can PW:S->Penance(BT)->FH(BT)->FH->PW:S->FH(BT). That is a mess load of healing in a hurry, even w/ 0 haste... and far more than "a bit" more w/o SoS.

TL;DR-> The issue is when people make unsubstantiated claims. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying "I like tank healing w/ Atonement, so bugger off. I don't care how good or bad it is relative to other builds." However, there is a problem when someone says as a blanket statement "SoS isn't a big deal for tank healing. Atonement works just as good."

[Zuziza]

TL;DR-> The issue is when people make unsubstantiated claims. There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying "I like tank healing w/ Atonement, so bugger off. I don't care how good or bad it is relative to other builds." However, there is a problem when someone says as a blanket statement "SoS isn't a big deal for tank healing. Atonement works just fine."

This is pretty much why you've got so many people riled up against you. I come from a top 10 raiding guild on my server, and while we acknowledge we're not the best, we are damn competitive. We have the mindset of always pushing our top players to be better at everything they do. The mindset of "I don't see what the hype is about, my way works just fine, yours is blah" stirs us up. While many methods are up to preference, there are always going to be instances where some are just better. I don't think there is a healing spec for priests that's "best" for ALL fights, but pushing people's buttons by looking down on their methods is going to get people to bite back.

[[-Spiritus-]]

FWIW, I usually spec both SoS and atonement, but no one else seems to like that idea

Mostly because they offer zero synergy.

[Zuziza]

Mostly because they offer zero synergy.

Expand on this a bit...

SoS is designed with single-target healing in mind. You get the most out of this spell if you're focusing on healing one person (a tank). You could try raid healing with it, but it's not as useful (less so in 25man) unless some jackass DPS is standing in fire all the time.

Atonement is a smart heal while you DPS. Thus, except for low-raid damage portions of fights, it goes wherever it wants. This is most useful for raid healing because it heals whoever's lowest on health, making it much easier for you to keep the idiots standing in fire alive because you don't have to decide between saving Herp and Derp, it'll heal whoever failed more. However, the downside is that you don't get to pick where it goes, so you're gambling when you want it to go on a specific person that someone else isn't going to take damage in the meantime. Thus, if you're tank healing, you better time it so raid damage isn't imminent and hope that Herp and Derp don't trip you up. There are some fights where this is unavoidable (Chimaeron, Halfus, etc), so atonement is more suitable for raid than tank healing, though there are some fights where it is viable for tank healing.

Basically, they're two talents for two entirely different healing roles. You CAN use both, but if you have a set role to tank or raid heal, you'd probably take points out of one or the other to put elsewhere.

[Deleted]

(1)Because bubblolspam with straight MST stacking is still the most powerful thing any healer can do in the game, so they hook up their Disc priests to multiple Innervate IVs and time other external regen tools [MTT, HoH] around the Disc mana pool. This is why Innervate is getting the nerf bat.

(2) See 1, but also Paladins are fantastic tank healers, but still cannot perform the function of primary raid healer in a top guild. So, why would a top guild have their Disc priest tank heal, even if they are really good at it?

Also, news flash, Disc priests in "top" guilds prefer bubblolspam b/c it causes the encounter design and raids to work around them. A bubblolspamming Disc priest doing his thing in an encounter that is designed to be a challenge for a raid w/o a bubblolbot makes the encounter significantly easier. A bublolbot Disc priest doing his thing in an encounter that is designed to be a challenge for a raid w/ a bubblolbot becomes irreplaceable. When you are competing for one of 10 -20 spots in your server region, that becomes a pretty big deal.

1. So I am right that disc shouldn't tank heal because they are so good at another thing that they are getting an indirect nerf?
2. Because they want to down bosses as quickly as possible? They still regard other healers better at tank healing, they don't say disc is better and that they are just taking paladins because that is the only thing they are good at.

Also, I am talking about present, not when they were aiming for world firsts. They are still using disc priests more like raid healers.

[Zuziza]

I use pw:s for rapture of course, I don't think SoS plays well with Chim though as you don't need to spam shields fast enough for it to make any difference.

My original issue wasn't SoS on Chimaeron, it was when you said

shields being rather pointless on anything but the double hit tank

that shield are pointless. I bolded that quote out when I first brought this up. The issue I had before that was not using GH/H/FH. Spiritus is the one challenging you so strongly on the SoS front.

It essentially becomes a mana battery because you know exactly when every bubble is going to get popped. That's immensely useful on this fight for mana intensive healing on a tank, or (if you're haste geared and raid specced), FH spam on everyone else.

---------- Post added 2011-06-09 at 07:39 PM ----------



I quite like the proccing to raid aspect - I don't consider myself 100% on the tank on any fight really (this is 10 man, would probably be different in 25 man), extra cheap raid heals when the tank isn't low are nice.

That was the point I'm making. You don't atonement tank heal halfus. You raid heal. =)

---------- Post added 2011-06-09 at 11:51 AM ----------

1. So I am right that disc shouldn't tank heal because they are so good at another thing that they are getting an indirect nerf?
2. Because they want to down bosses as quickly as possible? They still regard other healers better at tank healing, they don't say disc is better and that they are just taking paladins because that is the only thing they are good at.

Also, I am talking about present, not when they were aiming for world firsts. They are still using disc priests more like raid healers.

The point you missed is this:

You have an awesomely geared, specced, and experienced pally healer. You also have a super l337 disc priest and some other class that can only raid heal because no one like them. Who tank heals?

The pally because lolpallyraidhealing. You don't sit an excellent player because of their class. If you can make the raid still work, you make it work.

[Deleted]

Also PW:S>FH for "health is dropping fast." If your tank really starts taking a beating, and you have SoS, you can PW:S->Penance(BT)->FH(BT)->FH->PW:S->FH(BT). That is a mess load of healing in a hurry, even w/ 0 haste... and far more than "a bit" more w/o SoS.

You're 15% down from no AA though, and you're basically swapping a FH for a PW:S and buying an extra BT. That's going to be a bit of a boost from the swapped spell and a decent boost from the BT. But you're losing 15% throughput. I've not run the numbers to tell what the difference is.

[Deleted]

The point you missed is this:

You have an awesomely geared, specced, and experienced pally healer. You also have a super l337 disc priest and some other class that can only raid heal because no one like them. Who tank heals?

The pally because lolpallyraidhealing. You don't sit an excellent player because of their class. If you can make the raid still work, you make it work.

What are you talking about? Top guilds? If you are talking 10 man, druids are very strong tank healers because they can stack mastery in 10 man. so unless you raid lacks both a shaman, druid and paladin, disc still shouldn't tank heal.

[Zuziza]

I love it when I can come to a forum asking for advice, and instead get a debate on the viability of everything else that i didn't even ask about.

Thanks, guys.

I love when this happens too, but I believe we've got like 5 arguments going on in here and I've gotten lost. Been rereading how we got this far, lol.