MMO-Champion - Patch 4.1 Preview -- Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms
Patch 4.1 Preview -- Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms
Originally Posted by Blizzard (Blue Tracker)
In patch 4.1 we'll be introducing Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms, a new system intended to lower queue times. Call to Arms will automatically detect which class role is currently the least represented in the queue, and offer them additional rewards for entering the Dungeon Finder queue and completing a random level-85 Heroic dungeon.

Any time the Dungeon Finder queue is longer than a few minutes for level-85 Heroics, the Call to Arms system kicks in and determines which role is the least represented. In the case of tanking being the least represented role, the "Call to Arms: Tanks" icon will display in the Dungeon Finder UI menu where class roles are selected, and will also display on the UI when the queue pops and you are selected to enter a dungeon. Regardless of your role, you'll always be able to see which role currently has been Called to Arms, if any.

Call to Arms is meant to lower wait times by offering additional rewards for queuing as the currently least represented role. To be eligible for the additional rewards you must solo queue for a random level-85 Heroic in the role that is currently being Called to Arms, and complete the dungeon by killing the final boss. Every time you hit these requirements (there is no daily limit) you'll receive a goodie bag that will contain some gold, a chance at a rare gem, a chance at a flask/elixir (determined by spec), a good chance of receiving a non-combat pet (including cross faction pets), and a very rare chance at receiving a mount. The pets offered come from a wide variety of sources, and include companions like the Razzashi Hatchling, Cockatiel, and Tiny Sporebat, but the mounts are those specifically only available through dungeons (not raids), like the Reins of the Raven Lord from Sethekk Halls, Swift White Hawkstrider from Magister's Terrace, and Deathcharger's Reins from Stratholme.

This system is meant to address the unacceptable queue times currently being experienced by those that queue for the DPS role at max level. The long queue times are, of course, caused by a very simple lack of representation in the Dungeon Finder by tanks, and to some extent healers. We don't feel the tanking and healing roles have any inherent issues that are causing the representation disparity, except that fulfilling them carries more responsibility. Understandably, players prefer to take on that responsibility in more organized situations than what the Dungeon Finder offers, but perhaps we can bribe them a little. While this system gives tanks and healers something extra, the incentive is being provided so that we can help players in the DPS role get into more dungeons, get better gear, and continue progressing.

While the gold, gems, flasks, and elixirs are OK incentives, we knew we needed something more substantial. We had briefly considered Valor Points and epics, but decided that wouldn't be working toward the goal of helping DPS players progress, and ultimately wouldn't keep tanks and healers in the Dungeon Finder system for very long. We settled on pets and dungeon-found mounts as they’re cosmetic/achievement items that players tend to try to get on their own, so why not change that up and offer them a chance to get some of those elusive pets and mounts in a way that also helps other players? Even if they don't get a pet or mount, or get one they already have, the gold and other goodies still feel rewarding enough that it won't feel like a waste of effort.

We think it's a pretty solid incentive to get tanks and healers queuing, give max-level players another way to collect the pets and mounts they so desire, and above all, to improve wait times for DPS players sitting in queues. In the case of lower level dungeons, it's actually not uncommon for DPS to be the least represented role, and so if this new system works out and we're pleased with the results, we may consider applying this same mechanic to lower level dungeons as well.
This article was originally published in forum thread: Patch 4.1 Preview -- Dungeon Finder: Call to Arms started by Boubouille View original post
Comments 1871 Comments
  1. Octopus's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky_b View Post
    That was my point. People are thinking these new mounts are just going to be handed out, they aren't. The drop rate is going to be equal to the rate they dropped in the original instance. The incentive is queuing for a heroic instead of doing the original instance solo. Most people aren't looking at it this way, but once you see it for what it is, it's really a win/win. The tank doesn't have to solo the original, the DPS get shorter queue times.
    The incentive for tanks is to run heroics? You lost me.
  1. Broontank's Avatar
    I love how everyone is acting like the mounts are going to be 100% droprate. You do realize they are going to have the same chance to drop as they do from their respective bosses, right?

    The entire purpose of this feature is to give the class that is lacking representation in the queue some incentive to queue into random dungeons. Yes, this will mean that it is almost always a tank class getting the call to arms, but at least it is encouraging tanks to join the queue and shortening the time DPS classes spend waiting.

    All of the whiners need to decide one thing - Do you prefer waiting in queue for 45 minutes for every instance you run, or having faster queues with your tank receiving a small bonus for speeding up YOUR queue?

    This is the best solution that Blizzard could come up with, and as far as I'm concerned, it's a good one. I am a tank for a guild that is into heroic raid content and I don't often do heroics, and don't EVER queue solo for pug heroics, but with this incentive I will likely queue for at least one run/day to try my luck at the pets and mounts. That alone just solidified one more group/day that receives a faster queue, and I'm sure a lot of other will be doing the same. I agree that a lot of other hybrids who aren't experienced tanks will start queuing as tanks to get the extra bonus and people will need to deal with weak tanks, which no one enjoys, but it's not like there aren't a huge number of tanks in the random queue who are completely useless already. I know because my main alt is a healer and I get stuck trying to heal them. But even then, if the tank blows, vote him out and you go straight to the front of the tank line, and maybe this time you get one of the very experienced tanks who you would never have even met in a random if this system didn't hit the game.

    The suggestions that Blizzard should implement some kind of AI tank for random heroics is the most ridiculous idea I can possibly think of. So the AI tank wouldn't ever make mistakes and then people would just start kicking user-controlled tanks to get to an AI one. Either that or the AI tank wouldn't be perfect and people would just get frustrated when it made mistakes. Not to mentioned the INSANE amount of coding involved in implementing a feature of that magnitude.

    The bottom line is that Blizzard recognize that there are a lack of tanks in the random dungeon queue which causes really long queue times for those who queue solely as DPS so they have put in the best solution they could think of to give incentive to tanks to queue more frequently. This was done FOR the DPS, NOT for the tanks. I am a tank who stands to gain absolutely nothing from queuing for random heroics anymore, so without this added incentive, I wouldn't even consider queuing, especially alone.

    If people have better solutions, then go post them on the suggestions forum on wow.com, otherwise quit with your crying.
  1. Dubzil's Avatar
    Wow some of the posts in this thread are horrible. But I will try anyways.
    ______
    To those saying "I wasted all that time farming the dungeon for my mount, now it's useless": Tanks still have to suffer through a 30-40 min heroic to get a CHANCE at the mount, which will still be rare, it's quicker and easier to just go to the dungeon and powerhouse through it.

    To those saying DPS should get gifts for waiting 40 mins: How the fuck does that address the issue of long queues at all? That would just make more people queue as DPS and even longer DPS queues.

    To those of you saying give VP: Blizzard already addressed this, there's no incentive for a tank to continue to run heroics after they have all of their VP gear.

    And finally, to those of you that think this is just a retarded idea in general: At least Blizz is trying to address what EVERYBODY QQs about constantly, and I think it's a pretty damn good idea since I used to tank heroics ~5 times a week, this will make me want to tank possibly more than once a day even just for flasks.
  1. Rexxr's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky_b View Post
    That was my point. People are thinking these new mounts are just going to be handed out, they aren't. The drop rate is going to be equal to the rate they dropped in the original instance. The incentive is queuing for a heroic instead of doing the original instance solo. Most people aren't looking at it this way, but once you see it for what it is, it's really a win/win. The tank doesn't have to solo the original, the DPS get shorter queue times.
    Okay lets go with that theory that I would do a Heroic to farm a mount (even though a strat run takes me like 5 minutes, but lets play it your way). Ok I que up on my tank we full clear. I am nice we kill every boss. At the end I open my bag come on give me something cool. WOW I am lucky as hell I got a mount. It is the white chicken! Oh, damn it I have it already. Back to farm strat f Heroics.
  1. Vallius's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky_b View Post
    That was my point. People are thinking these new mounts are just going to be handed out, they aren't. The drop rate is going to be equal to the rate they dropped in the original instance. The incentive is queuing for a heroic instead of doing the original instance solo. Most people aren't looking at it this way, but once you see it for what it is, it's really a win/win. The tank doesn't have to solo the original, the DPS get shorter queue times.
    I agree with you wholeheartedly. The problem with these random dungeons, as I see it, isn't really the wait time itself: It's what you get after you spent all that time waiting in line - a shitty tank/shitty healer or shitty dps or all of that! Casting Haste on the process is a good start but I think Blizz needs to takes steps more in the direction of educating the common player on how to do their jobs, more so in the tanking and healing departments. Sure, savvy players who frequent forums and hit up elitistjerks or tankspot or whathaveyou know how to do what they do, and do it well. But I find that player base to be the exception, again, not the rule. We need better players to make this all work, imo.

    Maybe like an in-game tutorial showing people how to tank/heal/dps would be a good idea?
  1. Harith's Avatar
    i think this is pritty much the best they can do in order to fix the issues with the lack of tanks

    as a tank i don't normaly do random HCs sens dps most of the time only knows stand here and do dmg and stuff dies, and they then die and get pissed at me or the healer

    stupid dps is more commen than stupid tanks just saying it like it is
  1. criticism's Avatar
    I'd rather have a 30 min queue then have idiots queuing as tanks for a chance at a mount. This will make the queues faster, but will probably make it more frustracing in the long run.
  1. Vallius's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by criticism View Post
    I'd rather have a 30 min queue then have idiots queuing as tanks for a chance at a mount. This will make the queues faster, but will probably make it more frustracing in the long run.
    It's kind of a double-edged sword right now. As it is we have to wait 30+ minutes for a chance at a horrible group. With this system we might be going through more terrible groups at a faster rate or increasing our chances of finding a better group quicker. I'm hopeful it's the latter.
  1. Drekmar's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallius View Post
    I agree with you wholeheartedly. The problem with these random dungeons, as I see it, isn't really the wait time itself: It's what you get after you spent all that time waiting in line - a shitty tank/shitty healer or shitty dps or all of that! Casting Haste on the process is a good start but I think Blizz needs to takes steps more in the direction of educating the common player on how to do their jobs, more so in the tanking and healing departments. Sure, savvy players who frequent forums and hit up elitistjerks or tankspot or whathaveyou know how to do what they do, and do it well. But I find that player base to be the exception, again, not the rule. We need better players to make this all work, imo.

    Maybe like an in-game tutorial showing people how to tank/heal/dps would be a good idea?
    That tutorial would you show only some basics. It wouldnt get you ready for every encounter. You would still need to look up on internet, do some research, practise a little. And thats where peoples laziness kicks in. Thing im trying to say the whole time is, that the problem is not in the game, it is in the player itself. Blizzard cant fix it, because its the playerbase.
  1. Malenurse's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by criticism View Post
    I'd rather have a 30 min queue then have idiots queuing as tanks for a chance at a mount. This will make the queues faster, but will probably make it more frustracing in the long run.
    This exact.
  1. Rolly's Avatar
    Boub
    You must love the stupid shit that comes out of the minds of the Blizzard developers lol look at the hits.

    edit: and Oh yea why is it stupid, well now instead of getting Mr Dps DK queueing up as tank in pvp gear once every 5 randoms it's going to be 3 times out of 5.
    And hey why bother trying to make tanking/healing more fun instead of a chore when you can just bribe your player base, hell it worked for Oculus.
  1. Dubzil's Avatar
    The rewards are meant to get GOOD TANKS AND HEALERS TO QUEUE. Yes, bad tanks and healers will queue, they always have and they always will, but now the tanks and healers that are on heroic content that have no use for VP, will be joining.
  1. Shampox's Avatar
    Inc mass flood of fail tanks
  1. Dergrim's Avatar
    I can care less about the mounts. I am more interested in the flasks and pots which will allow me to farm less. Would have been nice if they gave some kind of tank specific boe pieces but i guess that opens up a new can of worms.
  1. Sparky_b's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Rexxr View Post
    Okay lets go with that theory that I would do a Heroic to farm a mount (even though a strat run takes me like 5 minutes, but lets play it your way). Ok I que up on my tank we full clear. I am nice we kill every boss. At the end I open my bag come on give me something cool. WOW I am lucky as hell I got a mount. It is the white chicken! Oh, damn it I have it already. Back to farm strat f Heroics.
    You're forgetting the other rewards and only concentrating on the rarest drop, though. A cosmetic one at that. There's still the cross faction pets, the extra money, rare gems and flasks/elixers. Sure, including myself, I'm mostly only interested in the pets and mounts, we have a dedicated Alchemist in our guild and the money isn't really an incentive, the gems aren't really that awesome for established guilds either since JC is one of the most used professions, especially if you like to min/max your main. But what you and some of you might be missing is the convenience of the new system. You knock a few birds out with a single queue, not only do you not have to solo the original, you get extra rewards for doing so, and the people who play a majority role get a shorter queue. The new system isn't even live yet, so thinking a tank is going to be the only role to get the Call to Arms is a bit premature.
  1. Malenurse's Avatar
    Tbh in worst case this system will totally sabotage whole LFG system. Sure 10 min que, but result is 5%-10% success rate? If they gona make this success also gonan have to nerf hcs "to the ground"
  1. jearle's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Vallius View Post
    Well, try not to personify all DPS'ers as whiny bastards. That's a start.

    This is a brand new system and I completely understand a lot of concerns that a lot of players have on both sides of the fence (tanks/healers and dps). My own concerns were that of the balance of quality people actually running the heroics once this change goes through. Good healers and Tanks are the exception, not the rule anymore. I've played since 1.1 (grandpa flashback, sepia tone) and back then if you rolled a tank or a healer you had better know how to do your job or you wouldn't run with anyone on your entire server (since this was before LFD). I just don't want face-rolled, off-spec'd tanks/healers causing more problems for the run than there was in the first place.

    You mentioned this being a "band-aid to a severed limb of a problem". What are your thoughts on how this could be fixed? Since we essentially have a template to work from we can extrapolate from it and create something better, maybe. My suggestion of offering something to everyone for running the dungeon (even if it's not the same incentives that tanks/healers would get) I believe is a step in the right direction. Solid DPS is just as important as solid tanking/healing.
    I really have nothing against DPS, if anything my angst lies with shitty tanks who have no right to be tanking in the first place.
    The sad thing is there is no solid solution to the DF problem and there never will be mainly due to the 5 man set up and human nature. The DF tool is convenient and its easy to sit down and queue to do a dungeon. The archetype of the current mmo group(generally) set up plays into a game of supply and demand. There will always be a huge oversupply of DPS compared to tank and to some extent healers. This leads to the tank god complex attitude which annoys the shit out of me too.

    /soapbox

    Tanks being the lowest supplied commodity are sought after. People start to re-roll, people start to re-spec just become the commodity that is the most sought after and enjoy instant que times ect.

    So at this point we still have more tanks but still a smaller ration compared to dps. However now 50% of the new tanks have no idea what they're doing or in general shouldn't be tanking in the first place and they are only doing it to "work the system".

    This leads to a widespread mentality of tanks being superior and god complexes arise. The attitudes of most tanks I run into is just horrible for the most part these days. Mainly because they would rather be DPS'ing/healing but they're tanking simply to get through it quicker. They bitch at DPS in a heroic and vote kick on a whim if someone makes a mistake. God forbid a wipe occurs, and they bounce instantly.
    /offsoapbox

    Suggestion
    My suggestion to make the DF tool more equal would have to be a better matchmaking system cross realm that allows you to request to be friends across realm and it has to be approved by that person. That way over time if you have "friended" a number of tanks who have in turn accepted you as a friend when you queue it could try to match your "friend" flags.

    This type of system would allow DPS to pick which tanks they want to "friend" and allows tanks the opportunity to pick which good dps they wish to friend.

    The more "friends" you have throughout your matchmaking group would reduce your queue times versus some douchebag who doesn't have any because he runs his mouth. The really good dps will be able to get alot of tanks on their friends list quickly. This would also make fresh 85s wait longer than established 85s which in my opinion is how it should be.

    I believe someone who has been 85 for a few months as a DPS and has worked on their gear should have a reduced queue time compared to a fresh 85 barely making the mark, not astronomically reduced but it should be shorter.

    Example:
    Youre in a queue for dungeon the DF tool is constantly trying to match you with people you have flagged as "friends" you have been in the que for 10 minutes and one of your x realm "friend" tanks queues up. That tank gets an instance immediately and it pulls in his "friend" flagged people first, which could possibly reduce your que time if theres nobody else that fits the role and has been waiting longer that is also on his "friend" list
  1. Taiki420's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Faithshield View Post
    For those of us who are social and have friends, this is a horrible change. Now if I am a tank, I am penalized for queuing with my friends and family. I would be better off queuing with random people from random servers then with my guildmates.

    Yes, great way to enhance the already hurting community of this MMO. I wonder how long before WoW is about as multiplayer as Warcraft 3.
    You aren't penalized for running with your friends, you just won't get the bonus. It's an INCENTIVE, as in not a requirement. If you are blowing off your friends for some gold and a chance at a few other things, then you should think about how much you really like your friends..
  1. Tokru's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparky_b View Post
    That was my point. People are thinking these new mounts are just going to be handed out, they aren't. The drop rate is going to be equal to the rate they dropped in the original instance. The incentive is queuing for a heroic instead of doing the original instance solo. Most people aren't looking at it this way, but once you see it for what it is, it's really a win/win. The tank doesn't have to solo the original, the DPS get shorter queue times.
    Why would anyone ever choose to run a heroic which takes much more time and has a relatively high chance to cause repair costs because of random people when you could have the same result (chance on a mount) with absolutely no risk in an older dungeon in 5min?
  1. lotj's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by jearle View Post
    I believe someone who is 85 as a DPS and has worked on their gear should have a reduced queue time compared to a fresh 85 barely making the mark.
    Gear doesn't seem to matter too much for dps, though. I could pull ~9-10k dps on my frost dk with an ilvl 326 or so, yet encountered more than a few frost/unholy dk's on my tank main who couldn't even break 3-4k with a 15% buff and a 344-350 ilvl.

    Besides, we're talking about heroics -- their whole purpose is to gear up for raids. Penalizing people with 330-346 ilvl just seems silly, since they're the ones who should be in heroics getting gear.

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