Arena and RBG Conquest Change

Originally Posted by h4rr0d

So basically PVPers now have to put same ammount of time as PVEers to get their points capped? I approve of that.

Except that PvErs get gold when PvEing, access to a lot more titles, materials for professions, more special mounts, and frankly has it a lot more easier to level the guild and get the perks from the guild system (Many of which are required to do PvE to get.). Until the day PvP can be on par with PvE on at least these things, this argument is pointless (Also, having it easier to get the best PvP gear is a very necessary perk for PvP, and is not something PvErs should bother about. Getting easier access to BiS gear in PvP is so that the gap between the lower and higher bracket in PvP is not going to get too big, which is an important point of keeping the game somewhat balanced.).

Originally Posted by Korgoth

The pvpers want to be able play 1 hr a week or 20 hrs a week depending on their preference. There is no challenge in a grind, just a false sense of accomplishment at the end. Have fun waiting another 2 months for another raid instance!

Grind? Where is the grind in doing something you WANT to do? Wasn't the purpose to go and PLAY arena?

Weird to pay for a game every month to just play 1h of the thing you love the most to do...

Sitting on a high rating without actually fight for it looks way more like a false sense of acomplishment...

Its like a team who just want to play 1 match of the championship season (preferably a winning match) and come back only in the next year/season for another winning match and another title... lol.

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 11:20 AM ----------

Originally Posted by XstenZ

Why not? As I see it, PvP should be about skill, not gear... Idc if a bad player got epics, the bad player is still bad.

Should be about "playing", not hiding... if you got what I said.

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 11:23 AM ----------

Originally Posted by redraven937

You guys really aren't getting it.

1) This change hugely impacts everyone who does Arenas: it is at least doubling the amount of Arena game wins each player needs to have to get capped each week. If you are below 1500, it now takes 10 wins instead of 5. Blizzard balances your MMR around the idea of a 50% win percentage, meaning they expected you to play 10 games to win 5, capping yourself out. Last expansion, you could /dance or /afk your way through 10 games per week for points; the pre-4.1 change let people cap early if they get lucky (going 5-0), but if you have a lower win percentage you could end up going 5-13 and do more games than last expansion. This new change doubles the amount of games everyone needs to play. Now your "for fun + points" teams will be running an average of 20 games instead of 10, and the upper-crust PvPers could be required to play an average of 40+ games instead of 10. Between the queue times and how long matches can last (at any level), we are talking about a massive, extra drain on your time.

2) No warning whatsoever. Patch was on the PTR for months, and a fundamental redesign of the Arena system was pushed through like a Congressional earmark on a budget resolution at the 11th hour? Not only that, Blizzard already knows it "may be too low" but they pushed it anyway?

3) All of this smacks as a back-handed move to push Arena players of all stripes into Rated BGs for Conquest Points - "Hey kids, how about 4 Rated BGs instead of 20 Arena matches?" Instead of, you know, admitting that Rated BGs are a failure due to their overall design, and not the reward structure itself.

4) The lack of empathy from obvious PvE players who never Arena'd to save their life is just sad. This is the equivalent of them reducing the VP you get from dungeons from 70 to 35 (or 140 to 70), but leaving the weekly cap the same. How would you feel about suddenly needing to run twice as many heroics per week? Oh wait, "it isn't necessary to cap VP each week" so nothing changes, right?

Just the fact that you don't get that the queue times won't be the same with ppl actually having to play makes all your argument invalid, sorry. Don't help bashing everyone that don't aggree with you with the "obvious PvE players who never Arena'd". It's just like you're the "obvious no-skill gimmegimme epics" player.

Originally Posted by xzbbzx

Because you're thinking of doing them on the same day. Winning 20 games, assuming 7 days a week means winning 3 games per day. That's not much... at all.

Mentality, that's what they're trying to change... conquest points shouldn't be able to be capped in just a day and then forgetting about them until the following week.

As someone having a 2.7k cap, currently, I need to win approximately 25 games a week in Arena, to reach my cap. That is 2.5 times as many games than what I had to do back in previous expansions. Especially considering that PvPers do not even get access to most of the stuff PvErs do, which I mentioned in an earlier post above, I do not see how it is fair for PvPers needing to put in as much work into getting our gear as a PvEr, while at the same time get much less rewards for it. It is a ridiculous idea and frankly, if this change will be as it is until the next season, I probably need to stop playing altogether, since I will not have time playing that many games just to get BiS gear again, in addition to all the stuff I need to get to enchant and gem it.

Originally Posted by XstenZ

Why not? As I see it, PvP should be about skill, not gear... Idc if a bad player got epics, the bad player is still bad.

This is /thread

New system is BS. I have 3 PVP toon, with decent to nice ratings (main PVP is of course lot higher than the 2nd alt). I have enough skill (not MAD amazing 3k) to enjoy some smart PVP with all of them. But with the new system I will have to win ~20 match with my main and ~15 with the other. That will just take TOO MUCH TIME (yes I have a PVE toon too who raid).

Arena should be rewarding after QUALITY not quantity. If you want to make gear access harder just had ratings on ALL PIECES (from 1k to 2k, doesn't matter) or force players to make their weekly points with the highest team (you can win 1300pts in RBG/2s/3s/5s, but after that you'll have to play your highest rating to break the base cap)

Originally Posted by Aernath

This.
The new system wasn't broken and there are so many ways to fix higher rating's problems, which actually apply to what? %0.5 of the arena player community only?
This is not a smart way to solve this at the last second, not smart at all. You have to think about all aspects of the community, you give 7 consecutive valor earning from hcs for casual pve'ers and take away this from pvp'ers? Sorry but I can't calculate the logic behind this and with the "we may have fucked it up a bit, it can be too low, we can arrange that later" remark, it just seems worse.
Let the well earned flame come, all the way...

Explain "give 7 consecutive valor earning from hcs"? What changes from doing 1 heroic per day in the end?

If you were actually saying that they are now getting 7 valor earnings from only 1 hc... like grabbing all conquests from lest than 1 game per day in a week... lol

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 11:34 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Ny0ka

Well I have to say as a pvper I actually like the change. This whole culture of 5 wins in less than an hour on one evening to get cap and then forget it for another week is just rubbish. Its been far to easy to get decent gear and pretend to be a pvper. Just about everyone does the mandatory 5 wins per week and imo it was spoiling pvp. People should do arena because they enjoy it, where does it say u cant spread out your arena matches over the week? 10 wins is still not alot over a 7 day period and those that lose way more than they win might actually learn some skill in order to get the gear!

This.
That kind of player actually don't care about pvp, just the epics. So this change, while bad for them, they actually don't care. It's not going to change their lives because they DON'T LIKE PVPing. They do it because they feel they need to do it for extra earnings.

The same way there are ppl who just want to kill a heroic boss and receive all the loot contained in the game (from all heroics and raids) in one kill and vanish for the week, they just want to log and receive their 5 levels (or 85 levels if it's a new toon) and be done with it, they don't like the PVE part of the game.

The players who actually enjoy what they do, be it PVP or PVE, suffer from the players who do it for "must get" earnings every week. They suffer from long queues because they want to PVP and most of the players there DON'T want to. Just want the rating to get their free stuff.

For these kind of players, a entire season (+/- 6 months) is way too much time without new epics. They join a ladder not the win, but to get easy epics. Wich gets to the old point in saying "why the hell you want the gear if you're not going to use it and next season there is another one to grab?"

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 11:40 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Blooddeity

BTW does anybody know for certain that valor to conquest conversion will count towards cap? Because if that is the case then people will just do 7 HC's each week and 1 or 2 arena games to hit the cap. So even less people will be doing arena's than before. That is if the valor -> conquest conversion counts towards the cap of course.

As they've always stated, players who join all the aspects of the game, have bonuses.

The pvpers who hate pve will work their normal way. pvers who hate pvp will do the same.

And yes, if you don't feel like capping all your toons, go do some nerfed heroics for valors.

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 11:41 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight

Well, playing 20+ games at high rating to cap, plus not having a 100% win rating (Which is statistically impossible.), plus having games that can last up to 40 minutes, will make it more than just "some" extra work (Think of it as hours upon hours of playing.).

Besides, the people at high ratings have always worked harder to get their rating and gear, anyway, so how exactly does your point actually matter, when it's already the case?

Not that much... not that much... hahaha isn't hard to get a high rating... unless you're talking about the 0.5% (btw, with the system of just playing a few games to not loose your rating, not that much effort to keep the rating huh?).

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 11:46 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight

1: Not everyone is in a guild that can access rated BGs.

2: Win-loss ratings with pugs in rated BGs is a lot lower than having any decent Arena team.

3: Winning a BG normally takes longer than winning an Arena game.

4: It still will take a very long time to cap.

5: Even if you are in a guild who is doing rated BGs, organizing the event takes a lot of work, and you can't always guarantee success, even if the guild is very organized and the players are experienced (This comes from someone who is from one of the best PvP guilds, on my server.).

6: Making rated BGs mandatory to play high end PvP, if you only like doing Arena, or vice versa, is plain stupid and removes the choice you have in what you actually want to do.

7: They already adressed this issue by making teams from the same factions being able to fight each other, in rated BGs.

8: There are plenty of teams queuing for rated BGs, already, and it doesn't normally take very long to start a match.

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 09:15 AM ----------



This change isn't even balanced for getting one character capped and considering how Blizzard wanted people to roll alts, to begin with, your argument is redundant, to say the least.

"omg, i have to play for it!" lol... it's all about this post. RBGs take more time and get more points. You just said that arenas take little effort, how can you ask for more points for it???? Makes no sense.

And remember, they wanted to change the focus of the pvp back to bgs... arenas are dying slowly. They're like 5mans, but rewarding top end raid gear. They're changing it to what they said a long time ago while developing cataclysm. "2/3/5 arenas = 5mans, 10/20/40 man bgs = 10/25/40 man raids, we just don't know yet how to make that work". Now they're working on it.

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 11:48 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Baygon

3-5 hours per character, if you include other stuff people do in the game, raid farm afk in capital cities, that's a lot of time, you know some people do stuff out of the game right?

If you raid farm, you can actually trade your valors for conquest and be capped with it.

Next excuse?

If you do a lot of stuff out of the game, you shouldn't be going "hardcore" (lol) on all your toons, RIGHT?

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 11:52 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight

Except that PvErs get gold when PvEing, access to a lot more titles, materials for professions, more special mounts, and frankly has it a lot more easier to level the guild and get the perks from the guild system (Many of which are required to do PvE to get.). Until the day PvP can be on par with PvE on at least these things, this argument is pointless (Also, having it easier to get the best PvP gear is a very necessary perk for PvP, and is not something PvErs should bother about. Getting easier access to BiS gear in PvP is so that the gap between the lower and higher bracket in PvP is not going to get too big, which is an important point of keeping the game somewhat balanced.).

They don't give pve stuff trough pvp anymore. Ok, except for trading honor for justice now... most of the guild perks are pve perks, you don't need them to sandb... i mean, arena

The meaning of accessing bis pvp gear is to pvp... not to hide after 5 games for the week or just not showing again for the rest of the season.

And if i'm not mistaken, you level a guild now trough pvp.

Originally Posted by VanishO2

This.
That kind of player actually don't care about pvp, just the epics. So this change, while bad for them, they actually don't care. It's not going to change their lives because they DON'T LIKE PVPing. They do it because they feel they need to do it for extra earnings.

The same way there are ppl who just want to kill a heroic boss and receive all the loot contained in the game (from all heroics and raids) in one kill and vanish for the week, they just want to log and receive their 5 levels (or 85 levels if it's a new toon) and be done with it, they don't like the PVE part of the game.

The players who actually enjoy what they do, be it PVP or PVE, suffer from the players who do it for "must get" earnings every week. They suffer from long queues because they want to PVP and most of the players there DON'T want to. Just want the rating to get their free stuff.

For these kind of players, a entire season (+/- 6 months) is way too much time without new epics. They join a ladder not the win, but to get easy epics. Wich gets to the old point in saying "why the hell you want the gear if you're not going to use it and next season there is another one to grab?"

Bullshit. Someone who only does it for points to get the gear pretty much never reaches the ratings to increase their Conquest Points cap. Mostly, they create a team with some random person, win 5 games, and then repeat the process next week, without bothering about increasing their rating. With this change, these people only need to win a few more games, which isn't a huge penalty, at all.

The people truly getting penalized here are the real PvPers, who actually bother getting rating to try to stay competitive. They will have to win ridiculously many games just to stay on top, each week, until they are fully geared again.

Does this mean the current amount of games needed to cap is too little? Sure. However, winning 20+ games at higher ratings is ridiculous and needs to be reduced (Preferably like in previous expansions, when you needed to win 10 games.).

Originally Posted by Simca

Currently top teams play like 1 game per week and do the rest in Rated Battlegrounds.

The rage is going to be that people at high arena ratings actually have to play arena games now (and jeopardize their rating) instead of just sitting on it like a trophy. The second major point is the time commitment for a lot of people will be a lot higher. That's something they can address by increasing the number of points gained though.

nplol, we play other teams high then!

Originally Posted by Ealyssa

This is /thread

New system is BS. I have 3 PVP toon, with decent to nice ratings (main PVP is of course lot higher than the 2nd alt). I have enough skill (not MAD amazing 3k) to enjoy some smart PVP with all of them. But with the new system I will have to win ~20 match with my main and ~15 with the other. That will just take TOO MUCH TIME (yes I have a PVE toon too who raid).

Arena should be rewarding after QUALITY not quantity. If you want to make gear access harder just had ratings on ALL PIECES (from 1k to 2k, doesn't matter) or force players to make their weekly points with the highest team (you can win 1300pts in RBG/2s/3s/5s, but after that you'll have to play your highest rating to break the base cap)

Again, you don't need to cap with all your toons. You should be enjoying your pvp, not doing it because you need to cap with your 3 toons.

They balance this game around one player and their time played. Not around time played on each toon. If they give it to players like you, there will be another claming that he pvp with his 10 toons and in two servers (20 total), so the system would be BS because he can't cap with all his 20 toons.

Again, it's about yourself, not about your alts, if you want to spread your points between all your toons instead of grabbing all of them in one toon, your problem, not theirs. It's like someone in wrath complaining that is hard to keep all his alts on the same boat having to do 10 and 25man versions of the same raids everyweek on 4 or more toons. It's their choice, not a "we must do it".

Once more, caps are there to prevent, not the be obligatory. If you actually enjoy pvp, nothing will change, if you don't enjoy it, it sucks. And sorry for you if you're the one who don't enjoy it. After all you can just do the "lolololskilllesspve" heroics and finish your conquests then... "even less time consuming doing lolpve".

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 12:10 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Frozen Death Knight

Bullshit. Someone who only does it for points to get the gear pretty much never reaches the ratings to increase their Conquest Points cap. Mostly, they create a team with some random person, win 5 games, and then repeat the process next week, without bothering about increasing their rating. With this change, these people only need to win a few more games, which isn't a huge penalty, at all.

The people truly getting penalized here are the real PvPers, who actually bother getting rating to try to stay competitive. They will have to win ridiculously many games just to stay on top, each week, until they are fully geared again.

Does this mean the current amount of games needed to cap is too little? Sure. However, winning 20+ games at higher ratings is ridiculous and needs to be reduced (Preferably like in previous expansions, when you needed to win 10 games.).

You mean, the lot of players on high rating (these ones you talk about are the ones who never leave 1500) who got carried every week to it? lol. The real pvpers should not have huge queues and lack of oponents this way. Chances are if they're top rated, they are alread fully geared. The ones gearing, wich should be at lower rates, will get it faster? What's the problem?

More and more, it's all about "mah epics! gimme!" instead of "i don't care about gear, just the true skilled pvp wonder and rating battle to be the top one".

25 or more wins, in either 2v2 where every game is around 15 minutes, or in 5v5 where the queue is 15 minutes

Its either to be diseases or be poisoned and die xD

Congratulations, PvP Heroes, you've confirmed that you're as casual as the PvErs you've bashed for so long.

Originally Posted by DeanyKong

Congratulations, PvP Heroes, you've confirmed that you're as casual as the PvErs you've bashed for so long.

Another generalization..

*sigh* sometimes I'm about to lose faith in what once was a great WoW-community. Is all hope gone? *sigh*

Originally Posted by Simca

Currently top teams play like 1 game per week and do the rest in Rated Battlegrounds.

The rage is going to be that people at high arena ratings actually have to play arena games now (and jeopardize their rating) instead of just sitting on it like a trophy. The second major point is the time commitment for a lot of people will be a lot higher. That's something they can address by increasing the number of points gained though.

It's not even that they have to jeopardize their rating.

If you play at an MMR of 3000, the number of teams that get you quick queues are few and far between. So if teams in your MMR range aren't queueing (regardless of how many others are) you will likely be waiting a very long time in between each game, only to face a team 500 MMR below you, and crush it. Sure there's a slight risk in it, but it's mostly tedious.

Also why the bias towards teams at higher rating? This is absolutely unnecessary and it will distort the rating ladder seeing as there is such a dramatic jump in point cap from 1800 to 2200 MMR.

Bottom line is that if they want to increase the number of arenas happening, they should do it without bias and simply make the cap 10 wins. Furthermore they could make the cap 10 games regardless of win or loss.

But this is likely a scheme to get players into Rated BGs. It could very well decrease arena participation, seeing as there are alternatives for conquest cap and Battleground Rating is incredibly easy to get and just as hard to lose.

Originally Posted by Ny0ka

10 wins is still not alot over a 7 day period and those that lose way more than they win might actually learn some skill in order to get the gear!

I don't see how you can look at it like this...blizzard has always(this expansion)been about catering to the casual player. Even making the HUGE change for VP that you can do them all in one day instead of once a day. I am a casual player...I rarely play during the week and I grind out stuff on the weekends late at night. I still have 4 85s...I dont raid at all except for 10BH every week and do arenas...2 of my toons are 1900ish rating...2k conquest points to cap per week, then 2 others will need just the 10 wins. This is going to make a huge difference to how much I need to pvp to gear my characters. I love pvp just as much as the next guy, but this is ridiculous. The worst part is, I was actually excited that I was going to actually be able to start getting some valor points on my characters. I would have some time to run heroics and gear my dk for tanking as well as pvping, but now that is not the case...I will be stuck with the limited time I do have trying to max out all of them. Just a douche move by blizzard to do this, especially without warning....most of us found out while doing arenas..."ooo cool man, they added a shiny new countdown time...ooo it has the horde symbol at the end! woot!....wtf 135 points?"

Bad change for me, cuz i need a total of 40 wins to set up my 4 toons and I barely had time to get 5 wins on them.

This change has been around for not even 24 hours, how many have actively tried Arena since then? I did, being my point, with a completely new comp than what i was used to and it still didn't take us but an hour to cap. we went arms/unholy with a win loss ratio of 10-4. New guy, no vent or skype. Half purple pvp half blue and had a blast. My point is stop being so tunnel visioned on the numbers and actually just play it out. I agree that the cap number might be too low for higher ranked games and imo should have the flat cap structured around those ratings so that at 2k or what ever so that way its still ten wins. Imo , having experienced the new cap it doesn't detract from the game experience at all. If you give it a shot and in a week or so if it still aggravates you, then flame, and I know some will. TL;DR, stop focusing on the math and play the game first.

Originally Posted by VanishO2

Not that much... not that much... hahaha isn't hard to get a high rating... unless you're talking about the 0.5% (btw, with the system of just playing a few games to not loose your rating, not that much effort to keep the rating huh?).

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 11:46 AM ----------



"omg, i have to play for it!" lol... it's all about this post. RBGs take more time and get more points. You just said that arenas take little effort, how can you ask for more points for it???? Makes no sense.

And remember, they wanted to change the focus of the pvp back to bgs... arenas are dying slowly. They're like 5mans, but rewarding top end raid gear. They're changing it to what they said a long time ago while developing cataclysm. "2/3/5 arenas = 5mans, 10/20/40 man bgs = 10/25/40 man raids, we just don't know yet how to make that work". Now they're working on it.

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 11:48 AM ----------



If you raid farm, you can actually trade your valors for conquest and be capped with it.

Next excuse?

If you do a lot of stuff out of the game, you shouldn't be going "hardcore" (lol) on all your toons, RIGHT?

---------- Post added 2011-04-27 at 11:52 AM ----------



They don't give pve stuff trough pvp anymore. Ok, except for trading honor for justice now... most of the guild perks are pve perks, you don't need them to sandb... i mean, arena

The meaning of accessing bis pvp gear is to pvp... not to hide after 5 games for the week or just not showing again for the rest of the season.

And if i'm not mistaken, you level a guild now trough pvp.

Yeah, like doing PvE is so much "harder". *insert sarcasm*

---

I said it is easier winning with an Arena team when the players in it are decent in comparison to being in a rated BG pug, which is the number one option for the majority of the playerbase, when there aren't tons of guilds doing rated BGs... If you actually did rated BGs with a really good guild, that would be a completely different story. In fact, it would be even easier than doing Arenas (Meaning, it would take less time.)...

Besides, you are taking my post out of context, since I replied to someone who said that this change was to encourage more people to do rated BGs, when in fact it would still be better having an Arena team, since they more than likely do not have access to a very good PvP guild and pugs simply do not have a high success rate to make it easier than doing Arena.

Arenas are alive and well, still. Same can be said about 5 mans. Not everyone likes BGs and raids and vice versa. They are different playstyles and they offer different kinds of fun, for people. I don't see where you are going with this and what is the actual point, especially when there is no real support of your claim.

---

Blizzard never gave PvE rewards when PvPing up until this patch, when you can now buy materials for Honour Points (Still isn't close to be on par with what you can get when PvEing.). PvP has had its own rewards since the beginning of the game.

Also, converting Justice Points to Honour Points and vice versa is only for people who do both parts of the game and is not in need of points to buy certain stuff, and is not really worth using when buying the mats I mentioned, when you in fact lose points when converting.

Some of them are used for doing PvE, some of them are not (For example, some PvE achievements unlock mounts you simply can not get through PvP.). It is also a fact the PvP guilds level slower than PvE ones, since they have much more rewards, when doing them.

Well, call it whatever you want, but the same could be said about the rest of the game, in that case.

---

The meaning of having BiS PvP gear is so that you can PvP on an even level with everyone else, so you can keep staying competitive against your opponents. A person with high rating should not be penalized to the point where only people who have time to win 20+ games a week, while at the same time manage to do everything else required for you to have the best enchants and gems for it. Also, people with alts have the right to do high rating PvP with more than one character, especially when good PvErs have enough time to raid with more than one character, as well.

I have had BiS gear for a few weeks, now. I still PvP to get high ratings. Now I can focus on actually being competitive, than having to worry about capping each week, which many still need to do. Farming PvP gear is not what makes PvP fun, it is about facing off against your opponents and outplaying them. Gear is only a way to create a gap between players who do not have the same gear and it is frankly much more fun playing against someone with the same gear as yourself, since then you know it wasn't because of lack of gear that you lost/won. This, however, will just make it more time consuming and just widen the gap between players having time to play much more than others, which in itself is not a measure of skill, at all.

I never said anything to the contrary, either. However, it still doesn't change the fact that PvE guilds have it much, much easier to level up their guilds, while PvPers have fewer options and can not gain as much experience to keep up. It is a simple fact.

Originally Posted by Melesaria

Actually it's that I don't have time every week to sit down for 6-8 hours to try and cap conquest points with 20-30 wins for 4 of my toons that I like to arena on. Some of us have lives where we don't actually get alot of time each week to play wow!

If you don't have time to play, you don't deserve full epics for all your toons. Simple as.

And thus my 6 years of warcraft come to a close. Been a hell of a ride, but this is the straw. Camel says ouch.

Too many PvE'rs here. Go and slay some dragonz would ya.

The change won't force any team too que. People sit at their rating when their glad safe and they already got full PvP epic so why would they que for more useless points? THis change will only force people with alts too play the game more. MORE MONEY TOO BLIZZARD! YAY DD

Shit change is shit.

And no top PvP'ers wont play RBGs all week. RBGs are total fucking bullshit. Seriously don't comment on PvP movies/news when your a dragonslaying Paragon wannabe just go slay some ez dragon instead kk??

And stop talking about earning your epics. PvP should be skilled based not gear based. Skill matters but so does the gear and therefore everyone should have the same gear when they go into arena. The invetion of conquest balanced PvP since everyone would pretty much fight in the same gear.

Originally Posted by Lixo

If you don't have time to play, you don't deserve full epics for all your toons. Simple as.

to get full epics on an alt...with the minimum cap..it literally takes an eternity. gtfo of here acting like its easy...much easier to get full epics raiding.