Ret Gurthalak nerf

[Deleted]

What did you call it when it went up 9% over night? Act of god?

Yes, Rets suck in every aspect of the game =P Live with it or reroll. Clinging to bugs will get you nowhere <,<

Except it wasn't a bug, SoT has always been considered a melee attack. The mechanic was changed for this weapon. It's
Blizzards lack of forethought that got us here. If they had simply taken SoT into account this conversation would never had happened.

[Requital]

What did you call it when it went up 9% over night? Act of god?

Yes, Rets suck in every aspect of the game =P Live with it or reroll. Clinging to bugs will get you nowhere <,<

I called it having the same Sword that Warriors and DK's had and having the same additional stacking benefit that Ret has had since wotlk because of our lack of attacks. Apparently you know very little about Ret so why post about something you know nothing about? Just trying to stir up some argument?

[pbad]

There's just no reason to respond to some unsubstantiated claim that's based off "well this ret in my guild went up so we might have been buffed". Even acknowledging it will cause someone else to read that and before you know it there's a "discuss our stealth buff" thread. I'm sorry I missed the unedited version, you still seem a little worked up to me.

As far as middle of the pack, I guess you have to define middle. If you're not top 1 or 2 is that middle? We're definitely above average when you look at the performances even after the Gurth fix. Like I said we're worse than warriors/rogues/mages but we're also better than hunters, both druid specs, both DK specs, both shaman specs, spriests, and close to locks, in a single target dps situation, in my opinion. This is based on what I see from recent parses, WoL, Raidbots. You can't just look at how your individually placing is within your guild. There are a lot of various fight factors and strategies that will greatly impact where you personally may fall in your guilds hierarchy. Also let's not forget gear distribution and individual player skill, not everyone will be on an equal playing field in these regards within a guild.

[Jonuts]

Middle of the pack is in reference to other classes top DPS spec's, not all specs. Otherwise, Frost mages are in a damn good place, beating out 4 tank specs and 5 healer specs! Wow! Frost mages obviously need no buffs to compete in PvE endgame! They're beating out 7 classes!!!!!! And you know, 21 out of 30 isn't THAT far from middle of the road...

The issue is that Paladins show up in top 4 (out of 10...) and *IMMEDIATELY* get hotfixed back down to, according to raidbots if I read it right (Which I'm probably not) 8 of 10, by the way, BOTH DK DPS spec's are beating us. looks like we beat out hunters, and shaman. Now you have fire mages decimating everyone, By extremely large margins. Are they immediately given a kneejerk hotfix? Nope. What about arms warriors? I'm willing to let rogues get a pass for this discussion since they're playing with their legendaries and supposed to break everything. Now Paladins get an immediate hotfix, and basically told that being in the top half of DPS potential (class wise) is a no-go. Are Paladins all of a sudden garbage? No. But lets be honest, we just got fucking cockslapped.

Now, in all fairness, according to the data compiled by raidbots (Honestly, I have *NO* fucking clue if I'm using it right), frost/unholy DK's and Balance druids are just *BARELY* beating us. *WHERE* they left us isn't that bad of a place from the looks, if you remove the horrific outlier that is Fire mage, and just look at every classes top spec, we're just a hair below middle on the spread. This tells me that 1: Fire Mages are fucking OP, 2: Rogues/warriors/Spriest are in their own little section that could stand to come down a bit, and 3: hunters/shaman need buffs badly. That would cut out most the spread. And that would be fine.

So why the bitching? Well, for starters, where they cut us FROM would only be on the top end of the spread I just envisioned, not out of it. Second, unlike *MOST* nerfs, there was no discussion, no testing. It was just done. Too bad, so sad. Third, Blizzard cockslapped us with their whole "you're not allowed to be in the top half. Back to #8 with you!". Congratulations! The two classes that one could argue are "Terribly broke" and that really need help? They're the only ones we beat now. Fix Hunters and Shaman, and we're smack at the bottom. The firemage nerf on the other hand, is likely to just drop firemages from the top to, well, the top. They're so broken that the ~4% or so nerf they're getting isn't going to bring them inline. Of course, I could be wrong, and not accounting for something, and the nerf could end up more servere, so I'll reserve judgement.

So the real question is, when are arms warriors, shadow priest, and rogues getting their nerf too? They're the people we were neck and neck with after all, and if this is about "balance", that means they have 8-12% nerfs coming too, right?

[pbad]

The overall data doesn't really describe individual class situations and is also why I made my comparisons with the the note "in a single target situation". There's no doubt a lot of the fights in this tier, and well almost every tier suit a lot of the other classes better. AoE and multi-dotting are prime components of just about every single fight, save for ultraxion. Our AoE isn't awful, but it doesn't compete with a lot of specs. Our biggest weakness is in the 2-3 target scenarios where blade flurry/cleave/sweeping strikes/mutli-dot shine the most. So yes, if you look at the overall picture there are a lot of other specs that excel in fights because of these abilities but that's just not what ret is there for. And honestly I don't think blizzard is going to start trying to balance to make sure every spec can damage 1, 2, to an infinite amount of targets equally, it just won't happen.

Rogues are going to be even more ridiculous when they get their legendary, it's just their tier. Nothing you can do about that, it's arguably a reaction on blizzard's part to them being the least played class now. Fire's nerf is justified and will probably bring them more in line but they'll still be at or near the top. The problem with warriors, in my opinion, is fury and arms specs generating rage from damage taken. This is what really starts to throw them out of whack once they get in to heroic fights in particular. The MoP idea of eliminating this and going towards a more active rage gen model is probably a step in the right direction. Also since HS is on a separate GCD they don't really get GCD locked under extreme haste/rage gen situations and then they just shoot through the roof.

I'm sure I'll never convince you otherwise but from my perspective we're still in the top half of DPS and have a good place in raids now. I can promise you there are a lot more high end guilds using 1 or more rets now than they have in previous tiers. The story here isn't anything different than it has been throughout 7 years of WoW. Mages/rogues/warriors through one spec another will always be the DPS kings to blizzard. Every now and then a warlock spec might sneak in there. And then you will have your multi-dotters tearing up those handful of fights since the only way they know how to make a fight more difficult now is "add more targets".

I'm sure we'll also never agree on what precisely the Gurth hotfix was. Conspirators like to believe it was intentionally put in place and intentionally a nerf to the class. Blizzard's explanation is that it was an unintentional bug discovered primarily through our damage and corresponding tentacle damage being so high. There's no arguing prior to the change we were getting far more benefit from Gurth than any of the other specs, and now of course we're bottom in that department. While it was certainly very sloppy on their part I honestly don't believe it was intended. SoT hasn't been procing anything in about 2 years, aka back in WotLK. To believe that these bugs can't happen just look at some stupid examples. A patch hits and we can't keep the mature language filter off, horde and only horde paladins can't stack EoU from judgment(honestly wtf), warriors spend an entire tier with deep wounds being affected by their 40% damage bonus, etc.

At a bare minimum we can be thankful for having a place in every fight this tier, some classes can't say that.

[Jonuts]

The overall data doesn't really describe individual class situations and is also why I made my comparisons with the the note "in a single target situation".

You might be meaning "Specific situations" and not "Class situations", because the overall data *IS* the class situation. The only questions are: Does Mypali know how to use raidbots(no, I don't), and whether or not you trust raid bots to give accurate information.

I'm sure I'll never convince you otherwise but from my perspective we're still in the top half of DPS and have a good place in raids now.

Actually, you can easily "convince" me of that. Because it's technically true. I even said our overall spot isn't really that bad. We're just under middle of the road on the spread if ignore Fire mages and assume anything below Ele Shaman (The lowest class's highest DPS spec) doesn't count. Or was it hunter under shaman? One of the two. If you look at *ALL* DPS specs, we are in the top half still, coming in at 9 out of 21. Of course, if we assume that the lowest class's highest DPS spec is the end of "raid viability", we're now 9 out of 11, with DK's having 2 competing spec's neck and neck. Our "middle of the road" in this scenario means we have 2 classes SEVERELY underperforming, and 3 classes VERY SEVERELY overperforming, and Fire mages are just so far outside of everything else that no meaningful model can possibly include them. Include Fire mages, and frankly, everyone is underperforming to such an extent that it's nearly criminal negligence to not be one. If you haven't killed Heroic Madness, it's because you're not a firemage.

Ignoring the firemage debacle, do rets really have a place in current progression raiding? Fuck. Yes. Need burst on demand? Ret is your man! No one (worth listening to) will tell you that Ret is not viable. Our damage is still respectable, and we're definitely useful on fights that don't require short and powerful burst. Again, the bitching is because of how they've done it, and the very heavy implication that being above average DPS on the spread between classes is unintended to such an extent that it warrents stealth nerfs via hotfix. The bitching isn't even about the numbers in the overall sense. The blatant double standard is just insulting.

[spookyz]

The overall data doesn't really describe individual class situations and is also why I made my comparisons with the the note "in a single target situation". There's no doubt a lot of the fights in this tier, and well almost every tier suit a lot of the other classes better. AoE and multi-dotting are prime components of just about every single fight, save for ultraxion. Our AoE isn't awful, but it doesn't compete with a lot of specs. Our biggest weakness is in the 2-3 target scenarios where blade flurry/cleave/sweeping strikes/mutli-dot shine the most. So yes, if you look at the overall picture there are a lot of other specs that excel in fights because of these abilities but that's just not what ret is there for. And honestly I don't think blizzard is going to start trying to balance to make sure every spec can damage 1, 2, to an infinite amount of targets equally, it just won't happen.

Rogues are going to be even more ridiculous when they get their legendary, it's just their tier. Nothing you can do about that, it's arguably a reaction on blizzard's part to them being the least played class now. Fire's nerf is justified and will probably bring them more in line but they'll still be at or near the top. The problem with warriors, in my opinion, is fury and arms specs generating rage from damage taken. This is what really starts to throw them out of whack once they get in to heroic fights in particular. The MoP idea of eliminating this and going towards a more active rage gen model is probably a step in the right direction. Also since HS is on a separate GCD they don't really get GCD locked under extreme haste/rage gen situations and then they just shoot through the roof.

I'm sure I'll never convince you otherwise but from my perspective we're still in the top half of DPS and have a good place in raids now. I can promise you there are a lot more high end guilds using 1 or more rets now than they have in previous tiers. The story here isn't anything different than it has been throughout 7 years of WoW. Mages/rogues/warriors through one spec another will always be the DPS kings to blizzard. Every now and then a warlock spec might sneak in there. And then you will have your multi-dotters tearing up those handful of fights since the only way they know how to make a fight more difficult now is "add more targets".

I'm sure we'll also never agree on what precisely the Gurth hotfix was. Conspirators like to believe it was intentionally put in place and intentionally a nerf to the class. Blizzard's explanation is that it was an unintentional bug discovered primarily through our damage and corresponding tentacle damage being so high. There's no arguing prior to the change we were getting far more benefit from Gurth than any of the other specs, and now of course we're bottom in that department. While it was certainly very sloppy on their part I honestly don't believe it was intended. SoT hasn't been procing anything in about 2 years, aka back in WotLK. To believe that these bugs can't happen just look at some stupid examples. A patch hits and we can't keep the mature language filter off, horde and only horde paladins can't stack EoU from judgment(honestly wtf), warriors spend an entire tier with deep wounds being affected by their 40% damage bonus, etc.

At a bare minimum we can be thankful for having a place in every fight this tier, some classes can't say that.

God I wish people would take the time to rationally look at problems like this..... it's so refreshing to see someone who can actually look at something, analyze it, and make a statement...... sadly.

In short, thank you.

[Kinmaul]

Simcraft does have the most recent gurth mechanics and in fact always has. It was incorrectly modeled as not procing from truth for almost the entire lifespan of the weapon in that state. About 2 days after we got a working revision to the code that allowed it to proc from SoT blizzard implemented their hotfix. That's why it is only worth about 2k in SimC, which is pretty accurate. To give you an idea when the SoT proc model was in place it was worth about 4.2k which is also pretty close to what could be called an average benefit from gurth back then.

Good to hear and because of it I decided to run some tests:

10k iterations on simcraft with N Gurth (42,098 dps) and 10k with H Slicer (42,332 dps). H Slicer came out ~234 dps ahead which is a .5% (half a percent) dps increase; given that the dps difference is so small I'd say the weapons are basically equal. I'll definately pick up a H Slicer when I get the opportunity, but the people saying H Slicer stomps N Gurth are being a bit melodramatic.

[OmegaManHester]

I was wondering since the SoT nerf what the actual uptime,damage% and number of attacks that can proc the tenticle 4 ret VS. the Arms warrior and UH dk. Our guild arm's warrior usually has double the tenticle procs and has no problem proc'n 3 or more at the same time while I struggle 2 proc 1. I havent gotten my hands on a H slicer due 2 10man loot rng. But the tenticle does a huge amount of the warriors total damage and what warranted this nerf 4 ret ?

[anaxie]

Ret got a 65% proc reduction towards Gurth so there you go. H:Gurth is still better but thats mainly going to be because of the ilevels +250 top end +30% damage from talents/perks, with proc/ slight damage bump on it.

[Kisko]

Good to hear and because of it I decided to run some tests:

10k iterations on simcraft with N Gurth (42,098 dps) and 10k with H Slicer (42,332 dps). H Slicer came out ~234 dps ahead which is a .5% (half a percent) dps increase; given that the dps difference is so small I'd say the weapons are basically equal. I'll definately pick up a H Slicer when I get the opportunity, but the people saying H Slicer stomps N Gurth are being a bit melodramatic.

I go with 100k iterations when deciding on differences like that.
And yes, HSlicer should be ~200 dps ahead of NGurth for everyone, which is a substantial dps gain.
For everyone ... well, except human paladins, they got owned once again.

[anaxie]

I go with 100k iterations when deciding on differences like that.
And yes, HSlicer should be ~200 dps ahead of NGurth for everyone, which is a substantial dps gain.
For everyone ... well, except human paladins, they got owned once again.

Draenei never get owned, should try it sometime

[OmegaManHester]

The devs claim we had x2 the chance to proc the tenticle over other melee classes though my logs read different, If the tenticle scales with 4 set and INQ thats probablywhere the problem lies but 2 rework SoT seems like over kill.

OT: they have acknowledged rets lack of mobility in pvp yet have turned a blind eye. If only they were ask quick to buff or balance as fast they do nerf we'd be in better shape

[Kinmaul]

I go with 100k iterations when deciding on differences like that.
And yes, HSlicer should be ~200 dps ahead of NGurth for everyone, which is a substantial dps gain.
For everyone ... well, except human paladins, they got owned once again.

200 dps would easily be lost in the rng of crits and DP/AoW procs. I wouldn't pass on H Slicer if it drops and I'll be replacing my N Gurth when possible, but I also don't expect to really notice a 200 dps increase on the meters.

[Deleted]

@omegaman

ret had a reliable snare in pvp, all it got nerfed for really.no feedback for over a week now on thousands of post on severals forums, it's hilarious how quick they are with "hotfixing" such problems when it involves ret, yet when we have problems that arent in our advantage it takes either patches, expansions or a whole ptr to get some sort of fix.

[Fredzilla]

Draenei never get owned, should try it sometime

Dwarves almost always get owned, so I'm used to it. Sure there was sulfuras in FL, but my guild never saw a single one drop between two groups running it. Woo rng.

[Bonkura]

Haha Alliance Paladins complaining about racials. Try come play some Horde and you might get an eye-opener.

[Veliane]

Haha Alliance Paladins complaining about racials. Try come play some Horde and you might get an eye-opener.

I wouldn't be laughing at factions after seeing your 'opening rotation' in the Trinkets thread.

[Dalmasca]

I go with 100k iterations when deciding on differences like that.
And yes, HSlicer should be ~200 dps ahead of NGurth for everyone, which is a substantial dps gain.
For everyone ... well, except human paladins, they got owned once again.

So I'm using the LFR Gurth as of today, but last night I picked up a normal slicer and I was wondering if the normal slicer would be ahead of LFG Gurth..

[Butosai]

So I'm using the LFR Gurth as of today, but last night I picked up a normal slicer and I was wondering if the normal slicer would be ahead of LFG Gurth..

This has to be a troll