[OFFICIAL] MoP Beta Build Changes Discussion Thread

[Nisala]

rogas your math is fantastic

i dont know how you figured out that a fire elemental thats only up for 2 minutes out of 5 minutes, does the same dps as a fire elemental thats up for 5 minutes of 5 minutes with a 50% inc to its damage.

astounding.

Are you assuming the talent will make the pet permament? There's no mention of that.

[Deleted]

primal fire ele spells

http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=118350 - Empower

http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=57984 - Fire Blast

http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=117588 - Fire Nova

http://mop.wowhead.com/spell=118297 - Immolate

[rogas]

[QUOTE=orderschvank;16064056]rogas your math is fantastic

i dont know how you figured out that a fire elemental thats only up for 2 minutes out of 5 minutes, does the same dps as a fire elemental thats up for 5 minutes of 5 minutes with a 50% inc to its damage.

astounding.


some interesting arguments would have been nice ...

[muxx]

http://mop.wowhead.com/skill=963

that actual earth elemental skills, someone mentioned them before but there is one more that wasnt mentioned

[stack]

Glyph of Unleashed Lightning. Your Lightning Bolt takes 5% longer to cast, but may be cast while moving.

This glyph just became terrible. The way its worded implies the negative side is always on, If its only during moving then its fine, but should probably be worded to say , if you move while casting, it does 5% less damage. Otherwise, ill just use spirit walkers grace and my instant casts. losing 5% on my most cast spell that makes up frequently 40%+ of my damage is just unacceptable.

[Deleted]

Ok, so now we know Primal Elementalist is not a talent for resto shamans. As least in PVE raid environnement.

[Recom]

Those spells look really promising !

Resto shams are not screwed with the level 90 talents, they are all useful in their own way and we might not need an additional throughput CD in the first place. Let's calm down and wait for the real test, shall we ?

[Radux]

Ok, so now we know Primal Elementalist is not a talent for resto shamans. As least in PVE raid environnement.

How so? One of the Earth Elemental abilities causes damage reduction. At the very least to you (yay). Better case scenario would be to cast it on others, too.

We just don't know yet.

[Endus]

from the looks of it ... elemental shaman is getting screwed over...


atm, if i use major fire elemental glyph ... i get a FE-uptime of 2 minutes and a CD of 5 minutes. In a pve fight of lets say 7 minutes, i'll have a FE-uptime of 4minutes ...


Since they changed this glyph (glyph of fire elemental) in mop to something worthless ... we now gonna have an FE-uptime of 1 minute and a CD of 5 minutes. We can also increase this FE uptime if we use the lev 45 talent 'call of the elements'.

So, in order to have more or less the same FE-uptime in mop, we need to take this lev45 'call of the elements' talent ... and use it to reset out FE-totem.

The only reason to ever use the FET glyph right now is if you're running a Totemic Focus build, which isn't an option in MoP. But, that would mean you'd have a 2m48s duration, and you said 2m, so the only conclusion is that you're just glyphing for a DPS loss currently.

Or you're taking the glyph to shorten the duration for progression attempts, and ignoring that the baseline ability does that for you in MoP.

If you're talking glyphs, Glyph of LvB or Glyph of LB is currently more DPS than Glyph of FET, in a straight comparison.

For most 6m+ boss fights, we're really comparing 2 minutes in one chunk, or two separate 1 minute chunks, meaning there's no effective change in uptime in MoP. But, with a shorter 5 min CD, we don't ever have it on CD during progression attempts. This was an improvement.

Also, the only thing this lev 90 'primal elementarist' gives us, is a 50% FE-damage increase....

If you actually read the OP, that's just false. It also has new abilities.

From the looks of it, we gonna need to use those 2 talents, just in order to see the same FE-damage output we have now... in other words: nerf

Or, if you aren't going to twist things around, it's a buff on progression attempts for normal-spec Elemental Shaman, and Totemic Focus-spec Shaman are irrelevant because the spec in MoP is based on the default one. Plus, you'd need to prove that the other abilities aren't enough of a buff to make up the difference, and frankly, that's an absolutely baseless assumption. At this point, I'm not even certain the Elemental talent is a given for PvE Elemental.

People vastly overestimate the effect the FET has on Elemental DPS. Looking at the current simulationcraft, its overall DPS (including downtime on an average fight) is almost 2k, out of 50k DPS. Less than 4%. And that's not factoring in that Searing Totem is about half that DPS itself; over many fights, Searing Totem provides more damage done.

It isn't nearly the big deal you think.

[BlayZin]

Why do all say Ele is in a solid place???

Look at these glyphes:
Glyph of Flame Shock: Increases the duration of your Flame Shock by 25%, but reduces the initial damage dealt by 25%.
-So why they do that? Its a Trade off... And we need more gcd now.

Glyph of Lava Burst: Your Lava Burst spell will always be a critical strike regardless of the presence of Flame Shock on the target, but it deals 5% less damage.
-So useless because our passive Lava Surge needs Flameshock. Only useful in pvp or much target switches.

Glyph of Unleashed Lightning: Your Lightning Bolt takes 5% longer to cast, but may be cast while moving.
-This is the most ridiculous glyph they build in. I can live with the other glyphes because we got 250% critdmg and the other classes only 200%.
So image ele pvp you got no haste 5% less is like you casting for hours. In pve its an opaque thingy.

So for Resto:
Glyph of Water Shield: Increases the passive mana generation of your Water Shield by 10%, but Water Shield no longer activates when you receive damage.
-whats this shit? I used it on early 85 and now I will never use this in future, because its shit?

I hope they will change ALL ele glyphs in useful...

[Riverness]

So for Resto:
Glyph of Water Shield: Increases the passive mana generation of your Water Shield by 10%, but Water Shield no longer activates when you receive damage.
-whats this shit? I used it on early 85 and now I will never use this in future, because its shit?

That is actually very good. It saves you tons of global cooldowns.

[Radux]

That is actually very good. It saves you tons of global cooldowns.

Well... the wording is still a bit vague. It could very well mean you still lose charges, but just don't gain mana from them.

I'd rather test it in game before making a final call on that, though.

[XenofeX]

Has anybody tested echo of the elements? Has an internal GCD? chance to trigger? behaves the same as Tarecgosa?

[Deleted]

Has anybody tested echo of the elements? Has an internal GCD? chance to trigger? behaves the same as Tarecgosa?

wonna know it too

[Eliot123]

Glyph of Water Shield: Increases the passive mana generation of your Water Shield by 10%, but Water Shield no longer activates when you receive damage.
-whats this shit? I used it on early 85 and now I will never use this in future, because its shit?

Would've killed for this glyph back on Morchok.

[viciouss]

I love water shield glyph because I always hate having to reapply it on fights that have a decent amount of damage, morchok and that rogue boss in the thrall escort quest...err dungeon. I however am disappoint with the chain heal glyph. I always wanted the extra range but having to weaken it to get so is just dumb to me.

[splitverges]

wonna know it too

Not sure if this is working right yet. Here is a combat log snippet, I don't see any Echo proc which I assume would come up with a duplicate row with the spell in it.

http://www.apatheia.org/download/clog_b001.txt

However, I haven't actually parsed the log yet with any tools. I'll run it again (cleaner) if needed.

[Protoman]

rogas your math is fantastic

i dont know how you figured out that a fire elemental thats only up for 2 minutes out of 5 minutes, does the same dps as a fire elemental thats up for 5 minutes of 5 minutes with a 50% inc to its damage.

astounding

Whats more astounding is how you missed the past 5 pages which said that the talent says nothing about making the Elementals a permanent pet, only a stronger cd, with controllable abilities. That seems to be a misinterpretation by Joystic when he posted the summary of lvl 90 talents, and nothing so far suggests they will be permanent. It makes sense, otherwise the talent would be too good.

@ FET/EET

Pretty pleased with their new abilities. Kinda sad they are not permanent, but its for the best. We weren't meant to be a pet class, and their abilities will make for a much stronger cd out of them, as well as possibility of using 2-3 times in a fight with glyph and totem reset talent.

@ Chain heal glyph

The range should really be buffed baseline. It's BS that we gotta glyph for this, when its range was listed as a big flaw in the past. It should be buffed from 12 to 15/18 yds baseline.

@ Telluric Currents glyph

This glyph has got to go. Shaman need a new mana regen cd, a nice personal one. I don't want to see Resto have to rely on this for mana regen. All we have for cd's is Mana tide, which is still weak cause of AOE component. Meanwhile, other healers benefit from our mana tide, plus their own regen cd's. Pally has meditate, glyphed lay on hands, and a glyphed divine plea (which returns 12% w/ no healing penalty for a 5 sec cast, every min). My suggestion is to just tack on Mana return to some other long cd, like Spiritwalkers grace gives you 10% of mana back over 15 sec.

@ Water shield glyph

This glyph seems dumb to me. So it increases passive mana regen, but we no longer get any mana from the orb procs? Do we really need such a tradeoff just so we don't have to refresh WS every 5 sec? Most of the mana is from orb procs, and thats a big source of passive mana regen. IMO the ability for the shields to not drop below 3 charges by taking damage should be a baseline part of the shields, for Ele/Enh have it baseline for Lightning Shield, and for Resto have it base for Water shield. Only shield you should have to glyph for this type of effect is Earth shield.

@ Unleash Lightning

What a horrible change. So to cast on the move, you have a permanent 5% haste penalty? I dunno if this is going to be significant enough for Ele to pass on the glyph, but that will again pose a problem with Ele's mobile DPS.....and our poor mechanics will become more apparent again. Hopefully they reconsider this, and give it some other penalty instead, or no penalty. Or just make it a baseline passive for Ele and remove glyph completely, this seems like a core mechanic for Elemental now.

@ Flame shock/Lava Burst glyphs

I doubt Ele will drop Flame shock from it's rotation. There are many advantages to keeping a dot rolling in PVE, and esp with the drawback of unleash lightning, mobility will be an issue again and dots help sustain DPS. The LvB glyph seems like something more for PVP, but doesn't seem all that great cause using FlS isn't a big deal unless there are crazy dispels being thrown around.

@ Shocks in general

I am still hoping that more is done with shocks, especially Earth and Flame shock. Especially as Enhance, we used to spam these every 6 sec, and now they are on such a low priority and don't have much to differentiate one another, or significant damage. I would like to see Earth shock's instant damage buffed as well as get an execute mechanic so it does significantly more damage when enemy is <30% HP.....and for Flame Shock a buff to its periodic damage cause the dot damage is pretty crappy in general.

@ Feral Spirits being a Guardian, Spirit walk baseline

This is an interesting change. I am really worried again about how accurate the Guardian pets will be at staying on my target. Unless they are pinpoint precise and accurate at staying on my target and switching when I switch, this is a bad change. Hopefully they have worked out a way to "target my target" for Guardian pets, cause this is a lazy way to make the controlled Elem talent work. On the plus side, we do get spirit walk as a base Enhance spell, and the wolves will heal on their own. But I did enjoy the taunt/tanking of wolves for solo questing and 1manning old dungeons/raids, sad to see that option lost.

@ Enhance Hit/Expertise

From what I read, Enhance will only have to gear for melee hit now, which is why they removed it from our passives. So we will need like 13% hit for DW and expertise cap, and expertise will be on mail gear now cause Hunters need it too. I wish we still had some small passive buff to both, could tack it on DW passive....but oh well.

[Endus]

Why do all say Ele is in a solid place???

Because it is.

Look at these glyphes:
Glyph of Flame Shock: Increases the duration of your Flame Shock by 25%, but reduces the initial damage dealt by 25%.
-So why they do that? Its a Trade off... And we need more gcd now.

You'd need fewer GCDs. The default duration of Flame Shock was bumped from 18 to 24 seconds; this would boost that to 30. And yes, it's a tradeoff, like all Major glyphs. It's not Prime any more. Prime glyphs don't exist, if they were deemed "necessary" their effects were baked into the ability they affected. That's WHY the default duration got a 6 second boost.

Glyph of Lava Burst: Your Lava Burst spell will always be a critical strike regardless of the presence of Flame Shock on the target, but it deals 5% less damage.
-So useless because our passive Lava Surge needs Flameshock. Only useful in pvp or much target switches.

So "useless" that's it's great for things like PvP, as you yourself mentioned.

Again, no more Prime glyphs. All Majors are tradeoffs.

Glyph of Unleashed Lightning: Your Lightning Bolt takes 5% longer to cast, but may be cast while moving.
-This is the most ridiculous glyph they build in. I can live with the other glyphes because we got 250% critdmg and the other classes only 200%.
So image ele pvp you got no haste 5% less is like you casting for hours. In pve its an opaque thingy.

If you have zero Haste, this means for Elemental, the base cast time is 1.575s, not 1.5s.

0.075 seconds at worst is not "hours", stop being ridiculous.

---------- Post added 2012-03-22 at 03:56 PM ----------

Also; updated the OP with the Primal Fire/Earth Elemental abilities, Spirit Walk, Conductivity, and that Feral Spirit is no longer a Pet, but a Guardian. Far as I know it's completely up to date again.

[Radux]

@ Enhance Hit/Expertise

From what I read, Enhance will only have to gear for melee hit now, which is why they removed it from our passives. So we will need like 13% hit for DW and expertise cap, and expertise will be on mail gear now cause Hunters need it too. I wish we still had some small passive buff to both, could tack it on DW passive....but oh well.

Melee Hit needs 7.5% hit to be capped.
Spell Hit needs 15% to be capped.
Expertise needs 7.5% to be capped.

Luckily, expertise also gives spell hit.

This means Enhancement only has to go for the minimum (7.5 hit + 7.5 expertise) like everyone else to get full benefit of spell hit.