[MoP] Misc Demonology Notes

[Jessicka]

What about the opportunity cost of the fury you don't generate?

That's the big issue, particularly when you're considering multiple targets.

Edit, should refesh pages: Even so, the more adds there are, the less efficient WoC becomes, and the more efficient HoG becomes, is that not a little backward? - This is not just true for the Fury generation/cost but also the DoT effect not restricted by the AoE cap.

[Grubjuice]

I have a question, what is the maximum number of stacks of Molten Core that can be accumulated?

[Deleted]

I have a question, what is the maximum number of stacks of Molten Core that can be accumulated?

I already stacked above 100 on dummies, but then it got boring

[Grubjuice]

I already stacked above 100 on dummies, but then it got boring

seems really weird. You'd expect to stack to 3 or something.

I assume when you cast a Soul Fire it does not reset countdown of the stacks, only when gaining another stack? so above something like 15 stacks you could not cast enough Soul Fires to use up every stack before it expires?

outside of the execute phase, is soulfire best used in caster form to gain fury or in meta to burn fury? Seems like it's better than Shadow Bolt in Caster form, but you still use DS in Meta up until the execute phase....?

[Jessicka]

seems really weird. You'd expect to stack to 3 or something.

I assume when you cast a Soul Fire it does not reset countdown of the stacks, only when gaining another stack? so above something like 15 stacks you could not cast enough Soul Fires to use up every stack before it expires?

outside of the execute phase, is soulfire best used in caster form to gain fury or in meta to burn fury? Seems like it's better than Shadow Bolt in Caster form, but you still use DS in Meta up until the execute phase....?

At present it is better used in caster form, but the difference is pretty small. Unsurprising given it's using 7.5% of a virtually unlimited mana pool, but 8% of an essentially finite Fury pool.

[Grubjuice]

Gameplay, changing with haste at low and high level isn't very intuitive and beginner friendly...

Gameplay changing as haste scales does not need to be beginner friendly because beginners don't have gear to reach the haste levels that warrant the change. It's a problem that is both only encountered and solved by advanced players.

Haste scaling that causes counterintuitive changes IS a problem however. On that I agree.

[Jessicka]

Gameplay changing as haste scales does not need to be beginner friendly because beginners don't have gear to reach the haste levels that warrant the change. It's a problem that is both only encountered and solved by advanced players.

Haste scaling that causes counterintuitive changes IS a problem however. On that I agree.

No ones rotation should really be changing substantially based on the stats on their gear. It causes people to do all kinds of weird things like gemming/reforging in ways that's actually detrimental just to reach a given 'cap'; I saw that a lot in T11 with Destruction Warlocks who went all out Haste with their Gems to reach that 'Holy Grail' marker for an extra Immolate tick, but then wonder why they put out poor performances when they'd sacrificed so much Intellect or Hit to get there.

That's a problem with various plateaus in general though, and for the most part people can put them into perspective, but the change to using the "better" rotation just puts an extra impetus into pushing people for it; and in this sort of case only serves to be even more detrimental by not just poor gearing, but wrong use of abilities too.

[Torq]

No ones rotation should really be changing substantially based on the stats on their gear. It causes people to do all kinds of weird things like gemming/reforging in ways that's actually detrimental just to reach a given 'cap'; I saw that a lot in T11 with Destruction Warlocks who went all out Haste with their Gems to reach that 'Holy Grail' marker for an extra Immolate tick, but then wonder why they put out poor performances when they'd sacrificed so much Intellect or Hit to get there.

That's a problem with various plateaus in general though, and for the most part people can put them into perspective, but the change to using the "better" rotation just puts an extra impetus into pushing people for it; and in this sort of case only serves to be even more detrimental by not just poor gearing, but wrong use of abilities too.

This kinda goes in the face of all your arguments about the rotation being boring or too static, though. A rotation that changes based on your haste level is the very definition of a mutable rotation; which, by all accounts, should be a good thing, because it bakes into the spec a certain measure of change.

There's nothing wrong with a mechanic not necessarily being "noob-friendly." The issue isn't that they can't figure it out, it's that they don't bother to put in the time to find out why high-level warlocks gear/play the way they do. That's not a design flaw, that's a... I dunno. That's more a PEBKAC than anything else.

[Xelnath]

"Identity Shit" actually matters more to most players than any specific game mechanic.

In fact, I'd even go so far to say that number balancing only comes after you get the first note right.

[Grubjuice]

So you don't even understand the whole revamp, the why and how... rolleyes

And don't bring " the identity sh*t"

What does that mean precisely?

---------- Post added 2012-06-18 at 02:59 PM ----------

anyway, with reference to haste specifically;

most instant spammable abilities are limited by a resource: compare Arcane Shot, Sinisterstrike/Mutilate/Backstab, and Mangle/Shred. all are limited by either focus or energy which allows those instant abilities to scale with haste. For rogues and cats energy scales with haste directly and for hunters both focus itself and SteadyShot/CobraShot scale with haste (even if haste is at the moment the worst stat for hunters in Cata 4.3, it's not useless).

Well Demonic Slash is limited by Demonic Fury and fury is dependent on haste because haste allows you cast more spells in caster form. More haste=more shadow bolts=more Demonic Fury=more D/, so D/ is scaling with haste vis-a-vis its resource dependence. Haste does not allow you spam D/ faster in meta but it allows to get INTO meta faster.

You could cast Soul Fire in Meta but you certainly could not move and cast the way you can with an instant ability like D/, so even if simcrafting proves that at high haste levels casting SF is a dps gain over spamming D/, D/ still would be the mobile-ranged-instant spammable attack for movement periods, just like Fel Flame replaces Shadow Bolt in caster form when you gotta move.

and even then, using Soul Fire as the meta filler is highly dependent on the reliability of stacks of molten core; If MC procs a lot you will probably be burning off stacks in both Meta and Caster form before the number gets too high, if MC procs are really rare you will want to use it before it expires regardless of your stance and if MC stacks at a moderate pace you will doubtless be holding on to stacks to use at just the right moments.

And you have to demonstrate that molten core hasted SF's replacing D/ in Demon form are better than MC hasted SF's replacing SB in Caster form.

I am not terribly worried about D/ not scaling with haste.

[Jessicka]

This kinda goes in the face of all your arguments about the rotation being boring or too static, though. A rotation that changes based on your haste level is the very definition of a mutable rotation; which, by all accounts, should be a good thing, because it bakes into the spec a certain measure of change.

There's nothing wrong with a mechanic not necessarily being "noob-friendly." The issue isn't that they can't figure it out, it's that they don't bother to put in the time to find out why high-level warlocks gear/play the way they do. That's not a design flaw, that's a... I dunno. That's more a PEBKAC than anything else.

WHOOOOOOOSSHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm talking about the exact sort of scaling issues that led to the AffDrain spec, that does absolutely nothing to enhances the dynamism in the play of the spec, you just spam a different filler.

Grats on missing my point, or just ignoring my point to try score points anyway.

[Torq]

WHOOOOOOOSSHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm talking about the exact sort of scaling issues that led to the AffDrain spec, that does absolutely nothing to enhances the dynamism in the play of the spec, you just spam a different filler.

Grats on missing my point, or just ignoring my point to try score points anyway.

How does changing the filler NOT change the dynamics of play? Especially since one has a cast time and the other is an instant? If anything it'll reach a point where picking one or the other is a meaningful choice; i.e. do I plant my feet and cast SF for a little bit of extra damage, or do I spam DS and retain my mobility?

Grats on ignoring a fundamental difference between spells that actually does, yes, change the playstyle.

[Jessicka]

How does changing the filler NOT change the dynamics of play? Especially since one has a cast time and the other is an instant? If anything it'll reach a point where picking one or the other is a meaningful choice; i.e. do I plant my feet and cast SF for a little bit of extra damage, or do I spam DS and retain my mobility?

Grats on ignoring a fundamental difference between spells that actually does, yes, change the playstyle.

When I talk about dynamism within the spec offered by Molten Core, it's the change in the system from hitting Shadow Bolt to hitting Soul Fire on the basis of a reactionary random proc. What you're talking about is not at all dynamic in that sense, it's changing your rotation based on equipped gear, it does nothing within the system itself as you're playing it.

[Torq]

When I talk about dynamism within the spec offered by Molten Core, it's the change in the system from hitting Shadow Bolt to hitting Soul Fire on the basis of a reactionary random proc. What you're talking about is not at all dynamic in that sense, it's changing your rotation based on equipped gear, it does nothing within the system itself as you're playing it.

I don't see how changing the rotation based on gear level is at all different. Sure it's a less instantaneous change, but it's one that also bakes in a sense of evolution to the class in the long-term. I don't really see that being a bad thing at all.

Having your rotation change with gear isn't exactly a new concept; haste breakpoints have done this since they added haste scaling to dots. They didn't necessarily change your priorities, per se (though they could, depending on how much the DPET went up after a breakpoint), but they definitely changed the order in which you cast spells across a fight. As an aside, I don't really consider the haste issues with immolate/HoG (when immo's duration would fall below HoG's cd) to be a good thing; that's more of an example of how it can go wrong.

[E] Not to mention, considering the current scaling of SF vs DS, it actually becomes a playstyle decision based not only on your gear (have to have enough haste to put the two close enough to each other in terms of scaling), but also based upon the encounter itself. High movement? DS when it Meta. Little or none? SF. Hell, you can probably even mix and match the two, depending on how well they scale (i.e. SF until a movement phase, then DS while moving; go back to SF after moving.)

That sounds pretty far from "uninteresting" to me.

[E2] At this point, I'm basically just echo'ing Grubjuice's comments above. He explains the points I'm talking about in greater detail.

[Jessicka]

Changing or 'evolving' with gear is something that precedents have been set as to be untenable within the design of the game; at any point that sort of thing has happened there have been adjustments to put things back to their original intent. It's never been a part of the design before, and for good reason, so I see no reason for it to start now.

I don't disagree that having the choice is a good thing, however, present costs on the spells essentially mean it isn't a choice. You lose DPS if you use Soul Fire.

The idea that Slash is limited by Fury as a limited resource is a false one, as the overall model of the spec is still global, rather than resource capped, unlike the Focus or Energy models Grubjuice compares it to. As it is, Metas themselves get shorter and never fit any more in them due to the 'resource cap' on Fury, this is true regardless of filler. However, once the global cap was reached, Meta would cease to get shorter, while the intervening periods continued to contract; it's that uneven rate that causes a big step-down in the value of Haste, as you're still capped by the number of globals across the fight.

[Torq]

Changing or 'evolving' with gear is something that precedents have been set as to be untenable within the design of the game; at any point that sort of thing has happened there have been adjustments to put things back to their original intent. It's never been a part of the design before, and for good reason, so I see no reason for it to start now.

So you're saying they should never change design philosophies? I'm pretty sure that's what the entire class redesign was about. Just because something was never part of the design before doesn't mean it shouldn't be. That's a terrible argument to make, unless you favor games that never evolve.

I don't disagree that having the choice is a good thing, however, present costs on the spells essentially mean it isn't a choice. You lose DPS if you use Soul Fire.

The idea that Slash is limited by Fury as a limited resource is a false one, as the overall model of the spec is still global, rather than resource capped, unlike the Focus or Energy models Grubjuice compares it to. As it is, Metas themselves get shorter and never fit any more in them due to the 'resource cap' on Fury, this is true regardless of filler. However, once the global cap was reached, Meta would cease to get shorter, while the intervening periods continued to contract; it's that uneven rate that causes a big step-down in the value of Haste, as you're still capped by the number of globals across the fight.

You kinda missed the key points of his post. Haste still increases the scaling of DS even after hitting the global cap, albeit to a far lesser extent, by increasing the rate at which you gain fury, and decreasing the time between Metas. Second, haste will always affect SF scaling in both senses; increased casting speed and decreased time between Metas (assuming you're using it as a filler). It also scales better with int than DS does, meaning there will be some inflection point at which SF is always the filler of choice while in Meta. Part of that scaling also depends on MC procs.

It's also helpful to realize that the costs of the spells aren't finalized, either. They might be close, but shave a little fury cost off of SF, and suddenly it becomes worth more than DS, even now. Nerf the scaling a little on DS; same story.

My point is there's nothing wrong with the model I'm describing. It might not practical as of this build, but then again, nothing is final yet.

[Jessicka]

So you're saying they should never change design philosophies? I'm pretty sure that's what the entire class redesign was about. Just because something was never part of the design before doesn't mean it shouldn't be. That's a terrible argument to make, unless you favor games that never evolve.

Changing a rotation for a class mid-expansion is not good design. Especially when it's based on stat scaling, as it leads people with insufficient stats to use the incorrect 'rotation' for their gear, while also leading people to get lambasted for using the 'correct' rotation for their gear if their gear is low. It's messy, and it's definitely up there as a 'big change' GC is so resistant to make in interim patches. For expansions, it's excusable, within reason.

You kinda missed the key points of his post. Haste still increases the scaling of DS even after hitting the global cap, albeit to a far lesser extent, by increasing the rate at which you gain fury, and decreasing the time between Metas. Second, haste will always affect SF scaling in both senses; increased casting speed and decreased time between Metas (assuming you're using it as a filler). It also scales better with int than DS does, meaning there will be some inflection point at which SF is always the filler of choice while in Meta. Part of that scaling also depends on MC procs.

It's also helpful to realize that the costs of the spells aren't finalized, either. They might be close, but shave a little fury cost off of SF, and suddenly it becomes worth more than DS, even now. Nerf the scaling a little on DS; same story.

My point is there's nothing wrong with the model I'm describing. It might not practical as of this build, but then again, nothing is final yet.

You're just saying exactly what I've just said: That Meta stops shortening at the same rate as the intervening Fury building Caster phases, and thus the Haste decreases in value. O.o With SF, or any cast time [longer than the GCD] spell as filler, it takes more Haste to reach that point: So long as Meta shortens at the same rate Fury is built up in caster, there is no problem. Otherwise you end up in this weird situation where you're better off sitting through Heroism in caster because it scales better.

I appreciate spell costs aren't finalised, that's kinda the point of the feedback

[Grubjuice]

Some questions I have:

How likely do you think it is that by the time this expansion has run its course Haste on gear will be high enough to make un-MC-hasted SFs replace D/ as the filler in metemorphosis? Do you think it's inevitable or only a hypothetical possibility? Is there anyway you could think of that would allow D/ to benefit from haste at a rate roughly equal to SF or to make SF benefit less from haste while in Meta?

I have some problems with SF even in its base form. We get SF at level 13, but then we don't get MC until level 69. What is the purpose of Soul Fire from level 13-68 without the increased haste and reduced mana cost provided by MC? Is it meant to be used to one shot trash while leveling solo? I certainly would not bother to use it in leveling dungeons where all the mobs would be dead by the time i got a 4second cast off. It seems like SF+MC as a proc is much more attactive than SF as a super slow nuke, is there ever an incentive to use SF as a nuke before that hypothetical future time when we have SOOOO Much haste that it overtakes D/ in meta? Why not redesign MC and SF by wrapping them together into a true proc.

Make it a spell that is only available to use when it procs.

SB is our filler in Caster and D/ is our filler in Meta, and Shadowflame and Wimp attacks build up to x limited # of stacks of Soul Fire which lasts up to 30 seconds. We cast Soul Fire which uses a stack of the buff, takes slightly less time to cast than SB, always 'crits' has a slightly higher spellpower coefficient and is either Fury free or costs less fury and does more damage D/ but is otherwise unavailable to us without the proc. That way we would never be tempted to ever use SF as a filler because it's not available to us to use as such.

---------- Post added 2012-06-19 at 09:53 AM ----------

You're just saying exactly what I've just said: That Meta stops shortening at the same rate as the intervening Fury building Caster phases, and thus the Haste decreases in value. O.o With SF, or any cast time [longer than the GCD] spell as filler, it takes more Haste to reach that point: So long as Meta shortens at the same rate Fury is built up in caster, there is no problem. Otherwise you end up in this weird situation where you're better off sitting through Heroism in caster because it scales better.

But it is also possible that at the point where haste is so much more beneficial to caster form than to meta form that you are staying in caster form during Heroism/Bloodlust, you may be gaining fury so rapidly that you cap fury before Heroism has run its course. You would never EVER want to stay in caster form after you capped fury, right? So the remaining seconds of heroism are of very little benefit to you because you have to go into meta once you cap.

Already not every class benefits from the haste of Heroism, look at cataclysm Enh Shamans, they provide the buff and yet it does absolutely nothing for them!! Poors Sods.

I don't know what conclusion i am trying to make, i am not that smart.

But I suspect that haste will neither be the king of all stats nor will it be the most useless of all stats.

[Jessicka]

I'm not sure whether it would reach that point as a baseline - I don't think we'll see rating stats reach levels we saw at the end of Wrath for example. However, trinket procs and Heroism certainly are going to factor in - that moment when you drop Meta because your trinket procs is not something I want to see.

Also, yeah I'm well aware of the issues with Enhancement and Haste; all the VP gear is dripping in Haste which is nothing short of infuriating for the Shaman I'm gearing up at the moment

[Grubjuice]

that moment when you drop Meta because your trinket procs is not something I want to see.

that would indeed be very strange.
not the end of the world, but strange.