How to reward 25 man raids for "logistical effort"

[Azrile]

This a 100 times. If anything, add something that only 2 raidleaders can get, no more than 2 items if there are 2 RL.... and they roll for it. Having more will still limit it to 2 items for them. Only they can roll on it because they have chosen that role. WHat it should be? Don't know yet, but it's ridiculous to award the whole group....

I always thought the gold that automatically gets added to the guildbank should do that.

Maybe the solution is to add mini-tabs to the guildbank... allow the guild-leader to assign people to a tab, and then have a random chance for items to drop from boss kills and get automatically sent to the ´raid-leaders´ tab.

[Deleted]

This is the issue. Scenarios and dungeon size, fine.

At this point in time the amount of 10 man guilds compared to 25 man guilds is laughable. There are vastly more 10 mans than 25 mans. At this point they cant make the raid size go up, for either group. The only option is to bring 25 mans down to 10 mans.

Again you are limiting your perspective based on the present.

Remember how rapidly things changed when Cataclysm launched for 25s?
Should a system like that comes into play things will adjust so fast that you wont be able to believe it.

It is amazing what people can do for loot. And the idea of testing smt fresh? Oh my, that will be the real kick start button after years of "just 10"!

Dunno about 18 people. It is a perfect number in my eyes but people are way accustomed to "round" numbers, and that is why 15 (mainly) and 20 are more popular right now (actually just before mop).
But a 3 people group with tank OR healer almost mandatory to be doable and 6 man group with 1-1-4 combo is much better than the 5 man dungeons, having in mind the people preference to dps roles.
And 18 ppl raid allows plenty of space for 2 or 3 tank fights and 3,4 or even 5 healer fights. The latest should be avoided imho though.
No matter what, in a set up like that you would have 66% dps in senario, 66% dps in dungeon and 66% dps in the raid. (with the typical 2 tanks 4 healers). Just about perfect.

Good post @aastarius

[Azidonis]

All they have to do is change their loot tables, which they have been terrible at making since day 1.

As an example...

Boss A: Shoulders
Boss B: Legs
Boss C: Ring

etc. until there is a specific item type from each boss, or at least each boss that they make, and the rest is filled in by vendors and things.

Then, if 10 man drops 2 items, then 25 man should drop 5.

So if you kill boss A on 10 man, 2 people will get shoulders. It would take 5 kills of boss A for everyone in the raid to potentially get new shoulders, which is over a month, and is fine.
If you kill it on 25, 5 people will get shoulders. It would take 5 kills of boss A for everyone in the raid to potentially get new shoulders, which is the same amount of time it would potentially take a 10 man group.

There. Balanced, and 5 drops feels "more rewarding" as opposed to 2, as your raid notices a larger power bump each time - however, the total amount of upgrades possible per boss kill is still only 20%. That is, 20% of your raid can potentially get a new piece every fight.

And if 25 man needs to feel more "rewarding", then increase the amount of Valor earned per kill.

[Tonkaden]

Again you are limiting your perspective based on the present.

Remember how rapidly things changed when Cataclysm launched for 25s?
Should a system like that comes into play things will adjust so fast that you wont be able to believe it.

It is amazing what people can do for loot. And the idea of testing smt fresh? Oh my, that will be the real kick start button after years of "just 10"!

Dunno about 18 people. It is a perfect number in my eyes but people are way accustomed to "round" numbers, and that is why 15 (mainly) and 20 are more popular right now (actually just before mop).
But a 3 people group with tank OR healer almost mandatory to be doable and 6 man group with 1-1-4 combo is much better than the 5 man dungeons, having in mind the people preference to dps roles.
And 18 ppl raid allows plenty of space for 2 or 3 tank fights and 3,4 or even 5 healer fights. The latest should be avoided imho though.
No matter what, in a set up like that you would have 66% dps in senario, 66% dps in dungeon and 66% dps in the raid. (with the typical 2 tanks 4 healers). Just about perfect.

Good post @aastarius

For whatever reason, Blizzard likes multiples of 5, with scenarios being the lone exception lol. I don't see this changing in the future. If anything they would go to 15. 2 x Tank, 3 x heal, 10 DPS (5m / 5r ideal). But 18 or more, nah. I still think they will be dropping it down to 10 man next expac. Seriously, at this point, why even keep 25 mans around? I guess you have to keep the top 5 guilds relevant amirite?

[Tides]

More loot.
Customizable loot as in 5 items out of 6 are still random but that 6th item you choose directly from the loot table.

Because let's be honest, anything not related to loot would just not work anyway.

I can get down with that. As long as i aint gotta do 25man raid leading and have to deal with the problems of making that particular descision.

[Aurora]

I don't believe adding the kind of rewards mentioned in the OP would better the situation, it'd make GM and officers job a bit easier but 25 disbands are rarely caused by the guild leaders deciding it's too much work and packing it in. The usual dynamic is ambitious raiders deciding it'd be easier and more efficient for their progression if they raided in 10 instead of 25.

The only way to add enough incentive is for 25 mans to drop better gear. I don't believe both modes can exist without one being to the detriment of the other and 25-mans as the popular mode offers greater community benefits, it has to be prioritised.

[Deleted]

You already get more loot

[Bridgetjones]

That is all player execution if you are really telling me that you have to individually hold 24 other players hands to get them to move then you have bigger problems than responding to what i said. Getting them to do that is no harder on 10 or 25, they move when they are supposed to if they don't they just fucked up.

Get over yourself

It's a simple matter of probabilities. If each player has an individual margin of error, it's more difficult to get more players to not make a mistake. Notice they don't give olympic medals for individual pool dancing, but they give them for synchonized swimming - because the difficulty is in multiple people performing perfectly in unison, and it gets more difficult the more people you have.

It's also no different than the probability of flipping a coin. You're saying that the probability of flipping 25 heads in a row is 50% because the probability of flipping heads is 50% for each individual flip. The actual probability of flipping 25 heads in a row is .0000000149% while the probability of flipping 10 heads in a row is .00049%. In other words, you're about 32,883 times more likely to succeed in flipping heads 10 times in a row than you are 25 times in a row.

Of course, this doesn't translate exactly because individual player skill factors in. In the real world, we do know that it's harder to recruit 25 low-error players than recruiting 10. In the era of one-fail-wipes that we're in now, the probability of 25 equally skilled players wiping on a boss is already higher. Add even a couple of sub-par recruits and your probability of failure rises significantly.

[Granyala]

I am in a guild that is suffering mightily to stay 25-man. We have a very solid group of about 20-23 raiders. The 4-5 "bad seeds" that hold us back on fights like Elegon, added to attendance issues, added to other various factors...are making 25-mans a seriously lost cause. If there was incentives to get, say, a decent 10-man guild to merge with us to do 25's, we'd be peachy keen. But what incentives are there to do so?

I understand that people think there shouldn't be a difference between the two, but at the same time people need to understand that there does actually need to be one to keep the format viable beyond the top guilds in the world. Because beyond those top guilds, 25-man guilds may as well be extinct. They're certainly on the verge of it right now, and it's really saddening to see it end up this way. I raid for social experience and fun. The less people around me, the less fun I'm generally having. For people in 25-man raiding guilds to actually enjoy themselves, there sadly need to be an incentive for people in 10-man guilds to do 25-mans.

Excellent post Fenix, as usual. I'm in the same boat. We're constantly fighting to get new recruits to replace people that leave. While we do have enough raiders for 3 days a week, there ain't a big margin for error.

I agree on the fact that there needs to be an incentive to do 25man, I just don't believe it's possible at this point w/o a massive backslash at the 10man community.
Guilds dieing always sucks, whether it's 25man or 10man.

And that's what has to happen in order to boost 25man participation, b/c the overall number of raiders won't increase anymore, it'll rather decrease further.

[Bridgetjones]

You already get more loot

If you divide $200 by 10 people, each person gets $20. If you divide $500 by 25 people, you still get $20. How do you "get more loot?"

---------- Post added 2012-11-19 at 12:36 PM ----------

I don't believe adding the kind of rewards mentioned in the OP would better the situation, it'd make GM and officers job a bit easier but 25 disbands are rarely caused by the guild leaders deciding it's too much work and packing it in. The usual dynamic is ambitious raiders deciding it'd be easier and more efficient for their progression if they raided in 10 instead of 25.

The only way to add enough incentive is for 25 mans to drop better gear. I don't believe both modes can exist without one being to the detriment of the other and 25-mans as the popular mode offers greater community benefits, it has to be prioritised.

The problem is that higher difficulty leads to slower progression, which leads to increasing difficulty with recruitment over time, which increases difficulty which slows progression, etc, etc. And then your raid dies because you're stuck on Elegon and only have 21 reliable players.

[Raone]

If you divide $200 by 10 people, each person gets $20. If you divide $500 by 25 people, you still get $20. How do you "get more loot?"

Although you don't get "more", you get less waste. It takes a lot longer to gear up your raid in 10m then 25m. You get more gear in the sense you have a much much higher chance of gear being used by your raid, then DEing it. It took us forever to get both 4sets for our tanks in DS ... like 4 months. Some items just never dropped at all.

The only way to add enough incentive is for 25 mans to drop better gear. I don't believe both modes can exist without one being to the detriment of the other and 25-mans as the popular mode offers greater community benefits, it has to be prioritised.

This will just piss off every 10m raider out there, including me. I hate 25m and don't want shittier gear just because people are avoiding 25m.

[Deleted]

For whatever reason, Blizzard likes multiples of 5, with scenarios being the lone exception lol. I don't see this changing in the future. If anything they would go to 15. 2 x Tank, 3 x heal, 10 DPS (5m / 5r ideal). But 18 or more, nah. I still think they will be dropping it down to 10 man next expac. Seriously, at this point, why even keep 25 mans around? I guess you have to keep the top 5 guilds relevant amirite?

It seems there are still over 2000 of them doing 25s(quite a few pf them are actually doing 25s on the side not progressing as 25, paragon and the 2 other russian top 10 man included), which is a bit surprising to me putting myself in the timemachine to teleport to firelands.
Back then i was certain that there would be no more than 1000-1200 still doing 25s at the first tier of the new expansion, should everything remains as it is.
I was partially wrong i guess.
And the desire for some leaders is still strong having in mind the 3 10 man at tier 13 that were forced into 10 man in my realm and migrated to pursue their dream (one only to meet their demise).
But the future lies ahead, and there will be some short of change that according to the devs will alleviate the disparities for 25s to make our 10vs25 a true choice for the majority of the player base and not only for the 10% of it on top of the progress ranks.

Should the changes are too radical, i will enjoy them as much as they last by doing 25s till the uproar brings the one size back on the table.
Should the changes are too weak, i will still give it a go to go back to 25s, till their inevitable demise bring the one size back on the table.

You see whatever they do, they will end up to the one size solution, i am pretty certain of it.
In the case they overincentify 25s i see 15 or 20 (less likely) as the most dominant candidate for single size.
In the case they just offer a temporary bandaid to 25s, i am afraid, that 10 man is the most possible candidate for single size, with less chances for a 15 ppl size, and that would make me a very sad panda.

[Fahrenheit]

Leave as is.

The rank and file of both 10m and 25m do exactly the same shit and neither deserve anything significantly more than what the other gets. The only difference is the logistics of setting up a consistent 25m group. I'm don't think one should get rewarded in game for stuff that takes place out of game.

[oppie]

Lets kick the 3 warlocks because they are on the same spark and have low damage on targets that is alive for only a few seconds right? Thats what happens if you just do it blindly. This has nothing to do with underperforming players it has something to do with the fact that not everyone has an epic weapon and not all classes are the same. This is something that everyone in the raid needs to help with because the raid leader cant keep track of everything.

The higher hp is not there because theres 15 more people in the raid, the higher number is there because blizzard is bad at designing their raid encounters. In 10 man you use 2 tanks and 6 dps and in 25 man you use 2 tanks and 18 dps. The sparks have 3 times as much hp in 25 man but if you were to multiply the number of people who can damage the sparks in 10 it would be 6 tanks and 18 dps. In 25 man you are "missing" 4 tanks compared to 10 man and this is something you need to make up for by doing PERFECT spark dps or in other words spread the 2 tanks and 18 dps so evenly out that you can still kill 5 waves of sparks.

In 10 man you dont need to do perfect spark dps because it is IMPOSSIBLE to do so but that doesnt mean its impossible in 25 man its just much much harder than asigning 1 dps to each spark and then letting tanks help the worst ones.

I wasn't saying that the one person leading the raid needs to do it all, i had said assign class/role leaders to do that for you and as far as the missing dps your not you have the same make up ability for the increase in health that is required, you are not missing 4 tanks to help, 3 dps in 25 = 1 dps in 10, you are asking for 4 more players this is not a 29m. you still have the same amount of help in both. and no you wouldn't kick the three locks because their dps is low because the spark isn't staying up that long, obv that is not where the problem is, its the ones that can't get the spark down that is the problem, either spread the locks to help with the missing dps or replace the under performing players, or just wait till you get that magic drop and have the weap or gear you need. The higher hp is there because of the extra 15 ppl you have there, what do you want, 25 to have the same hp as 10?

[Tides]

Raids: 18-player (10's need 8 more, 25's lose 7)

25mans boots the worst players and 10mans are forced to recruit them. Orsum!

[Deleted]

I wasn't saying that the one person leading the raid needs to do it all, i had said assign class/role leaders to do that for you and as far as the missing dps your not you have the same make up ability for the increase in health that is required, you are not missing 4 tanks to help, 3 dps in 25 = 1 dps in 10, you are asking for 4 more players this is not a 29m. you still have the same amount of help in both. and no you wouldn't kick the three locks because their dps is low because the spark isn't staying up that long, obv that is not where the problem is, its the ones that can't get the spark down that is the problem, either spread the locks to help with the missing dps or replace the under performing players, or just wait till you get that magic drop and have the weap or gear you need. The higher hp is there because of the extra 15 ppl you have there, what do you want, 25 to have the same hp as 10?

You missed the entire point. 6 dps in 10 man equals 18 dps in 25 man and that is true, 2 tanks in 10 man equals 6 tanks in 25 man and that is not true. The hp of the sparks are 0,5 times higher than it should be ie it should be 2,5 times as high as the hp of 10 man sparks but it is infact 3 times as high.

You are right the solution is to split the 3 locks but that is also what makes 25 man so much harder, you NEED to split up your tanks and dps in groups to make sure that the sum of each groups dps is equal. If you dont do that and do it blindly like you are able to in 10 man you will end up wiping to enrage because you will only get 3-4 sparks down at maximum.

In 10 man what you do is 1 dps on each spark and your highest damaging tank with the lowest dps and the other tank with the second lowest dps. In 25 man you spend HOURS trying to work out 6 PERFECT groups to get down 5 sparks every time.

[Butler to Baby Sloths]

The only people in a 25 man guild that might deserve a reward are the two-three people who are actually responsible for the raid. Everybody else gets a free-ride in comparison to a ten man raid, where you are more likely to be called upon to perform a specific task. The people that just show up for the raid don't need any rewards other than what they have already.

[Granyala]

Everybody else gets a free-ride in comparison to a ten man raid, where you are more likely to be called upon to perform a specific task.

What utter bullshit. You get the same tasks in 25man. Maybe it' because I play shadow (we're mostly the "special task gal's") but seriously, you're grasping at straws here to defend your imagined superiority of 10man raiding.

[Ryzzen]

Here is my answer to anyone that says that 10 and 25 are equal. Do the dps check. I have done both 10 and 25, and while some mechanics are harder on 10, 25s always has a higher personal DPS requirement. Meaning the avg dps required to kill the boss is higher on 25 than 10. If you want to convince me that they are the same then start there. Why does it take more avg dps to kill a boss on 25 than it does on 10?

I can't find the chart now, but someone made one awhile back that showed the difference and it was usually 15-20% higher for 25s.

[Talen]

Barely over 2,000 guilds, or about 50,500 players, raid in a 25-man format right now. over 27,000 guilds, or approximately 271,110 players, raid 10-man. That is over a 5-1 ratio. That is completely absurd.

No, its not. Not so long as those 270k+ actually want to do 10s. There is no magical law that states there should be some fixed ratio.

For people in 25-man raiding guilds to actually enjoy themselves, there sadly need to be an incentive for people in 10-man guilds to do 25-mans.

So, for you to have fun, we need to drag 10 players from a format they enjoy?

EJL