since when did raiders give up so damn easily

[Babytaco]

Well.. I wouldn't call anyone who don't have the ds hc achievements a raider.

Obviously the majority who didn't raid during that content are those who can't be arsed to put alot of time in raiding. And that's the result you get when such people want to faceroll old content and then wipe.

This is incredibly naive. /facepalm

[Hevlex]

Since when?

[Zogarth]

Because you are doing an old raid?

[Deleted]

Players in general have always had a low tolerance for wiping.

Those who can stand to beat their head against a wall soon find others of like mind and they cluster together. From that little enclave they make the mistake of thinking that wiping 80 times before a kill is something normal folks will do. Ime, about 4- 6 wipes is when most pug people will leave to do something fun instead.

[Christan]

Failing in older raids is because people think they can ignore mechanics with their new high lvl chars that are clearly out gearing the content etc. Happens all the time.
Not much you can do about it if people aren't willing to take 5 mins to fresh up their knowledge on fights etc.

Claiming you need to have cleared everything on heroic (when it was current/relevant content) to be called a raider is simply ridiculous though.

i agree with the last statement,
however a raider in my book entails raiding current LEVEL content
if you outgear a raid fine...whatever...as long as it is for your level.

doing BT at 80 85 90 etc? nope, not in my books. quitting raiding for 6 months and coming back, joining a casual guild at level 85 and helping them clear Tot4W at level 85 when you are in heroic ds gear? sure you could still call yourself a raider

as long as it is for your level.
now casual vs hardcore is where it gets interesting for me.
and for myself the difference is whether the guild as a whole pushes progression, and / or punishes repeated mistakes (an extreme would be sitting someone out for making one mistake i guess)

yes to both = hc, one or the other = depends on your guild, and no to both = casual.

you can raid 8 hours a night 7 days a week and if people are just that bad you won't progress, but bad =\= casual.
some guilds raid 2-3 hours 1-3 times a week and progress just fine, though 2 hours once a week...even clearing trash becomes annoying rofl...

so... raider = current level
bad casual (self explainatory)
good casual = someone who learns from mistakes, optimizes for what they have, doesn't have a ton of time to raid.

bad HC = raids all hours but cbf'd to stop making mistakes, or thinks skill outweighs proper enchants / specs etc
and only progresses because of time spent, eventually getting out of that obvious puddle will become second nature...as soon as s/he can figure out how to do it while still epeening their dps, then they can beat the encounter

good hc = learns quickly from mistakes, and optimizes gear, willing to personally sacrifice his dps to ensure the raid has a higher chance of beating an encounter (think Spriest symbiosis...some are stuck on it being to much a dps loss for the healing...)


could most likely make a spreadsheet out of all that lol, someone could eventually say (i am a type 1a2e3S raider) rofl...
just a string to explain theorycrafts? yes, okay thats 4b don't theorycraft? thats 4F, leads theorycrafting discussions and knows wtf to do, can answer the math off the top of their heads? thats type 4A, little "a" would be for not leading the discussions but can answer the math and knows wtf to do...

interesting idea anyway...
just to many things / opinions to complicate discussions on this topic...
easiest way would be to do a spreadsheet, then people can see what kind of raider you are 5a-b-c-d-e-f could be spending a=40+ b=30+ c=20+ d=10+ e=5+ f=1+ hours a week raiding (f ofc would fail most guild apps, maybe he's just lfr and cbf raiding)

[Shoridayo]

It's old content, so I'm not surprised some people got annoyed and left. The fight overall is a joke. It was a joke at release. It was the second heroic we ever got down at 0%.
However, that being said, I think it's total bullshit that because of one wipe people bailed. That seems a little ridiculous.

[OneSent]

Holy fucking shit! People in this thread are associating 8/8 HC Dragon Soul as the pinnacle of raiding achievements?? Stating that if you don't have it, you aren't a raider??

The fact that anyone would view DS as the holy grail of raiding has shown to me just how far the mentality of the raiding community has gone to shit. I can't even fathom how someone could come up with such an impudent statement.

Then again, I suppose Dragon Soul is the only heroic raid most of you have ever cleared when it was relevant content, so there's no surprise that you would place it on a such a pedestal. You must have felt pretty good about yourselves when you were steam rolling through the biggest joke of a raid in WoW's history with that 35% nerf.

[Deleted]

What exactly is so special about having 8/8 hc Dragonsoul? Clearly in your eyes I'm not a raider, as I skipped most of DS due to RL commitments. Yet I've been raiding since TBC.

Again, I said the majority, not everyone. Stop reading between the lines.

[Aquamonkey]

Why do so many people discount PvP raids as raiding? Those are groups of more than 5 players. Some world PvP and some BGs even have raid bosses.

[Deleted]

Because everything that happened in Vanilla must stay the same.

With varying definitions based on personal progression.

Garalon and Elegon say hello.

Multiple hours of wiping or requeuing says otherwise.

Says the player who's 4/6 MV Normal, wanting to distinguish themselves from the "non-raiders".

Sorry, but, what you say doesn't make sense.

For starters, Garalon got nerfed to the ground. Every single pug I entered this and the previous week got him down in 1-3 tries max. Elegon was easy to begin with, never had problems with him in LFR, once people chose a spark to kill and saw that it worked for the first wave, they stuck to those sparks for all the waves. Re-queuing for LFR means nothing. You're not "raiding" during that time, you're either idling or doing something else, non-raid related.

[Deleted]

This thread would had ended at the first page if someone just said: OP, your thread-name is wrong, it should had been " since when did pugged players give up so damn easily after one wipe on old content?"

Just define your own perception of what a raider is, it all differs per player anyhow. If you really want to push it to the extreme just do what they did in southpark and add/make it clearer in the official dictionary.

[Alvito]

Yeah calling ppl doing a DS pug now raiders is like calling me a Civil War vet because I just visited Gettysburg.

[Santti]

In my opinion, if you see yourself as a raider, you are a raider. It's not like that term means anything to anyone but yourself, if that.

[Jalfrezi]

I am not a hard core raider anymore and haven't been since the end of Wotlk but that doesn't change the fact that what I'm doing is considered being a "raider". To be specific I am currently a Casual Raider.

People like you... really make me sigh. The clue is in the name Looking for RAID.

Given 40 man raids would often pug people in vanilla, in essence... LFR did exist. It was just manual back then, now it's an auto pug system.

I would hardly give your WOTLK progression as "hardcore" lol. I was casual and cleared more than you.

OT: In my opinion, it's a combination of people thinking they can roflstomp old content and lazyness. Was the same in Cata groups trying to pug LK heroic without an understanding of the mechanics, like the shadow traps.

[Vargur]

The only raiders in LFR are those that go there to gear up for normal and heroics. By heroics I mean heroic raids.
LFR is nothing more than a 25 man dungeon.

You can't say you're a "raider" and raiding if you do last expansion's content now.

[Deleted]

You're entitled to your personal view on it. It's just that it's blindingly obvious that players will draw an arbitrary line between what they consider raiders and what they don't consider raiders.

I'm not looking for a guild, as none of them can cater to my current work schedule (and I'd much rather have money than raiding achievements).

Regarding the "desperate need to try and be put in the same boat as people who actually do raid", I'm actually following the definition of a raid, am raiding whilst in LFR by that definition. Note that the definition does not depend on personal progression or time constraints.

Thanks for backing up my point, however.

I'm yet to find a player that doesn't raid not call LFR raiding.

A raider is someone who raids on a scheduled basis, usually with the same people every week (for instance his guild).
Raiding requires coordination between the 10/25 different players. the extent of this coordination depends on the difficulty of the raid.
Being a raider is not about difficulty. it doesn't matter if it's normal mode or heroic mode, 1/16N, 7/16HC, or 16/16HC - all that matters is that it's on a scheduled basis every week.
> Therefor LFR is not raiding, and you're not a raider for doing LFR. Doesn't matter what difficulty it is, but it's not something people schedule with each other on a regular basis and furthermore it doesn't require the coordination of all the players in the raid.

As someone else pointed out already, you can RAID without being a RAIDER, now even if LFR was RAIDING you would not be classified as a RAIDER as it doesn't meat the criteria described earlier.

[Terridon]

On Topic:
I guess a lot of the patience with wiping was lost from getting LFR. It made it very easy to try the content, and 2 wipes was sure to get people to rage. People got too used with having a max of 2 wipes during an entire raid, and now have a hard time being patient enough with several wipes since "we did this in last expansion without wipes!"
The people you find that want to raid DS, is the people that just used LFR. Those that raided it isn't going to go back to get the gear once again, or reexperience the place.

Off Topic(and most discussed):
To me a raider is one that keep going on, in normal or HC(current content). One that has the patience to work together with a group, and even though they have 50+ wipes on stoneguard isn't making drama in their raid, quitting it or something like that.
If you manage to do that, you put enough effort in it, to be a raider in my eyes. You might not be a good raider, but a raider none the less.

Haven't tried LFR in this expansion, but it sounds a bit harder than it was in last expansion, but i still don't think it has the required level of cooperation to be a raid in my eyes. It's a big Heroic instance, with some bosses being as hard as blademaster, with people actually having to keep a minimum of attention to their suroundings.
It's probably just a matter of people not being on exactly the lowerst possible ilevel, to make it a walk in the park again

Sincerly a noob

[Banzhe]

I was more referring to the guy that said LFR wasn't raiding or some crap.

Hate to burst your bubble, but LFR isn't raiding.., it's not even close to raiding, it's a bunch of strangers going through a glorified scenario at best with mechanics so weak that a 5 year old child can finish it, the only reason it seems "challenging" at times is due to players walking not even bothering to glance through the journal (or players who simply don't know the first thing about they're abilities on w/e character they flavor at any given time) that was provided for that very reason.

You can call the above insecurity all you want, it's still not changing the fact that LFR is nothing more a time-zink for people who "don't have time", and a free gear upgrade venue for normal / heroic raiders!

[Firebert]

I play basketball against 5year olds once a year.

I am an athlete/sportsman.

What you quoted was a definition.

What you responded with contains an arbitrary line of what a sportsman/athlete is.

They are different.

---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 01:37 PM ----------

Re-queuing for LFR means nothing. You're not "raiding" during that time, you're either idling or doing something else, non-raid related.

By requeuing I meant waiting for other players to join your raid, and that is comparable to finding a replacement in Normal/Heroic. I don't see raid times like:
"1900-2030, 2045-2200 because someone has to leave early".

Obviously waiting for the queue to pop in the first place isn't raiding.

---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 01:42 PM ----------

A raider is someone who raids on a scheduled basis, usually with the same people every week (for instance his guild).

I queue up for LFR every week around the same time, and take a couple of friends with me.

Raiding requires coordination between the 10/25 different players. the extent of this coordination depends on the difficulty of the raid.
Being a raider is not about difficulty. it doesn't matter if it's normal mode or heroic mode, 1/16N, 7/16HC, or 16/16HC - all that matters is that it's on a scheduled basis every week.

You forgot 1/6LFR.

LFR is not raiding, and you're not a raider for doing LFR. Doesn't matter what difficulty it is, but it's not something people schedule with each other on a regular basis and furthermore it doesn't require the coordination of all the players in the raid.

LFR is easier than Normal, and the difficulty doesn't matter. I schedule it and Garalon crush says hi.

Please stop contradicting yourself.

---------- Post added 2012-11-24 at 01:43 PM ----------

Hate to burst your bubble, but LFR isn't raiding...

Hate to burst your bubble, but raiding isn't a personal definition. See my WoWwiki quote earlier in the thread.

[Deleted]

You might schedule it, but the rest of the raid doesn't, the concept is not made for people who schedule it. it's made for those who don't have the time or want to put in the time to schedule for raids. There's a reason you queue up for it like LFD.

And it doesn't require coordination, so what if garalons crush says hi, the numbers have been turned down so much to make up for the lack of coordination that you just heal/dps through everything. Some fights might have been overtuned a bit for their target audience, they've been nerfed since - because it's not raiding, you're not meant to have to coordinate people, you're just meant to show up, see the boss and otherwise hit it.