Should Alimony Still Exist?

[Laize]

Here's the most important thing you need to know about a prenup.

You need to make absolutely sure that you both have separate lawyers going into it. It's ridiculously easy to get a prenup thrown out of court if a divorce lawyer can say the contract is unconscionable because "she wasn't fully aware of what she was in for".

If you both have separate lawyers and are both fully informed of what the agreement stipulates, it can't be thrown out.

Getting married as a man without a prenup is like playing Roulette with your life and betting on 00. You are almost guaranteed to lose. With a prenup it's more like you're betting on red/black.

[Kasierith]

If you want a prenuptial agreement and the spouse-to-be in question does not, then you should not, under any circumstances, get married.

Everyone should get a prenuptial agreement. Even if you have no assets, there's no telling just how badly the system can find a way to fuck you.

This exactly. There are laws in place to protect you, that most people fail to file because they don't think about prenuptial agreements, they fill them out improperly in ways that allows a court to overturn it (ie things that weren't yours coming into the marriage), or decide that because it is "true love" they have no need for such a legal document.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

Holy shit do people really not understand the concept of marriage and a responsibility to each other? Alimony should exist, but should be reformed significantly. There should be standards, not bullshit where the judge gets to decide what is appropriate.

For all of you people thinking assets should be split by who paid for them, do you not understand mutual responsibility? That is, if one person is working, the other person needs to make up for their not working in some way? For some people that's house duties and taking care of kids. If you decide that it's OK for them not to work then you are admitting responsibility for them. If they aren't working and you want them to, why aren't you discussing this with them?

[Doctor Amadeus]

This exactly. There are laws in place to protect you, that most people fail to file because they don't think about prenuptial agreements, they fill them out improperly in ways that allows a court to overturn it (ie things that weren't yours coming into the marriage), or decide that because it is "true love" they have no need for such a legal document.

Yes but then WHY get married, doesn't all of this provide evidence to prove people should in fact be not getting married, or thinking very carefully before doing it, i really don't get this living life with no cost attitude, nobody gives up anything, nobody wants to really give something up, seems more like a plight or condition rather than a title commitment.

[Deleted]

No, it should not exist.

In addition, assets should not be split "down the middle". Assets should be split proportionally to who actually paid for them.

No. Assets should be split down the middle.

Imagine if a woman gives up the job to look after the kids (yes even today thats not so outlandish!). The man earns more, but the woman raises the kids. She has contributed as much, if not more, to the marriage, so why should she get less?

As for alimony? difficult, She many have sacrificed her career to support the family, so is in a disadvantaged position compared to the man.

It sounds simple in theory, but in practise its much more complicated.

[Elegiac]

Yes but then WHY get married, doesn't all of this provide evidence to prove people should in fact be not getting married, or thinking very carefully before doing it, i really don't get this living life with no cost attitude, nobody gives up anything, nobody wants to really give something up, seems more like a plight or condition rather than a title commitment.

We've stated the reasons repeatedly. And yes, it does mean people should think more carefully about getting married.

[Liagala]

Yes but then WHY get married, doesn't all of this provide evidence to prove people should in fact be not getting married, or thinking very carefully before doing it, i really don't get this living life with no cost attitude, nobody gives up anything, nobody wants to really give something up, seems more like a plight or condition rather than a title commitment.

I think this would make an interesting thread on its own, rather than derailing this one. There is SO much that could be said on this topic, on both sides of the issue. The short version of my opinion: marriage gives you peace of mind. The single mindset is one of taking care of yourself in all ways at all times. The married mindset is one of mutually taking care of each other. You hold up your partner when they need you, and you know that they will hold you up if you need it. I'm well aware that you can feel this way even without a piece of paper, but that piece of paper mentally makes it more "real" in people's minds. It really is psychologically important to most people, even if not to you.

[Kasierith]

Yes but then WHY get married, doesn't all of this provide evidence to prove people should in fact be not getting married, or thinking very carefully before doing it, i really don't get this living life with no cost attitude, nobody gives up anything, nobody wants to really give something up, seems more like a plight or condition rather than a title commitment.

It gives evidence for the underlined portion above. A marriage is a significant social bond, in addition to having significant religious appeal depending on the individual, and is not something to be taken lightly. The modern image of marriage, based on true love rather than utility, seems to have gone over and beyond that to the point where a good number of marriages are done out of infatuation, infatuation that eventually wears off (don't really want to divert the thread into true love vs infatuation, so for the sake of expediency lets just say short term vs long term). There is no reason to rush into it, and no reason to protect your interests coming into the wedding as clearly marking as your own.. and considering that your partner can do the same, I see no problem with such a situation unless you want to forsake common sense for emotional appeal.

[Laize]

Yes but then WHY get married, doesn't all of this provide evidence to prove people should in fact be not getting married, or thinking very carefully before doing it, i really don't get this living life with no cost attitude, nobody gives up anything, nobody wants to really give something up, seems more like a plight or condition rather than a title commitment.

Fewer and fewer people have been getting married over the years. Men are especially reluctant to marry. No, it's not the stereotypical "commitophobe" nonsense, but rather the ridiculous bias in family courts against men.

As for why get married? That's easy... the government gives a shitload of incentives to get married. These incentives (Not the least of which is a significant reduction in taxes) are there to encourage people to get married and have kids yadda yadda yadda. The problem is that, right now, every penny you've ever saved in taxes by getting married will go right back out the door (and then some) when the divorce papers get dropped on you.

Considering something in the neighborhood of 70% of divorces are initiated by women with half of all first marriages ending in divorce (A figure which gets about 10% worse for every subsequent marriage) you'd have to be fucking retarded to, as a man, get married without a prenup.

[Elegiac]

Considering something in the neighborhood of 70% of divorces are initiated by women with half of all first marriages ending in divorce (A figure which gets about 10% worse for every subsequent marriage) you'd have to be fucking retarded to, as a man, get married without a prenup.

How many of them are initiated because said man couldn't keep his cock in his trousers?

Enough with the women bashing. Yes, we get you're a man.

[Laize]

No. Assets should be split down the middle.

Imagine if a woman gives up the job to look after the kids (yes even today thats not so outlandish!). The man earns more, but the woman raises the kids. She has contributed as much, if not more, to the marriage, so why should she get less?

As for alimony? difficult, She many have sacrificed her career to support the family, so is in a disadvantaged position compared to the man.

It sounds simple in theory, but in practise its much more complicated.

Not many people will say a stay-at-home mom/dad should get nothing in the event of divorce. I don't know of anyone who supports permanent alimony, however.

---------- Post added 2012-12-28 at 10:29 PM ----------

How many of them are initiated because said man couldn't keep his cock in his trousers?

Enough with the women bashing. Yes, we get you're a man.

It's not women bashing. It's facts. Since when is stating facts bashing anyone?

As far as "keeping it in his pants"... Women cheat about as often as men.

It's also estimated that 2-4% of children are born as the result of an affair. Wouldn't it be fun to find out one day that the kid you spent 18+ years raising isn't your own? That actually happened to a family friend.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Yeah, i appreciate the responses but there is not a single shred of information or evidence that suggest marriage is anymore real or makes commitment anymore important, if anything it seems to diminish the state as the state itself diminishes the meaning.


It simply is a contract, that says me me me, all over it especially if its followed by the notion of a prenup or thoughts about what about if this happens.



I think marriage should be taken after you spent time really wanting to get to know each other and making a commitment, not an excuse to play house.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

Yeah, i appreciate the responses but there is not a single shred of information or evidence that suggest marriage is anymore real or makes commitment anymore important, if anything it seems to diminish the state as the state itself diminishes the meaning.

It simply is a contract, that says me me me, all over it especially if its followed by the notion of a prenup or thoughts about what about if this happens.

I think marriage should be taken after you spent time really wanting to get to know each other and making a commitment, not an excuse to play house.

Do you walk around with your eyes closed and your ears shut to everything but some misogynistic idea that women just want to get married and play house with their kids?

[Doctor Amadeus]

Do you walk around with your eyes closed and your ears shut to everything but some misogynistic idea that women just want to get married and play house with their kids?

Actually i was talking about Men and Women equally, I am not sure where you got that, I mean just women, I also said that I don't think alimony should be changed one bit, because I think the more nasty and ugly a divorce is and made to be, people will simply not get married out of selfish emotional need needs.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

Actually i was talking about Men and Women equally, I am not sure where you got that, I mean just women, I also said that I don't think alimony should be changed one bit, because I think the more nasty and ugly a divorce is and made to be, people will simply not get married out of selfish emotional need needs.

Your previous responses in the thread indicated it.

Also, do you really think having extremely silly payments that equate to punishment for getting married to try to prevent people from getting married is cool?

[Liagala]

Yeah, i appreciate the responses but there is not a single shred of information or evidence that suggest marriage is anymore real or makes commitment anymore important, if anything it seems to diminish the state as the state itself diminishes the meaning.

You insisted that material benefits (like tax rates and shared medical insurance) can be gotten while single even when they can't. I brought up intangible reasons and said they were psychological, meaning that everyone will see it differently, because psychological stuff lives only in our heads. You dismissed it because there's no physical evidence... of mental stuff. Right. Clearly this is something you're just going to have to file in the "I don't get it, but whatever. I understand that people see things differently" box, because you're not actually interested in hearing the answers to your questions.

[Doctor Amadeus]

Your previous responses in the thread indicated it.

Perhaps if you took some part of what i said out of context, and you skimmed it yeah, but no part from what i see and know i actually wrote suggest your claim either way, my comment was about both men and woman and our societies expectations leading them to want to play house, with a marriage, than actually wanting to get married after a seriously introspective decision on both parts to make that kind of choice.

[Liagala]

It's not women bashing. It's facts. Since when is stating facts bashing anyone?

You're concentrating on all the negative aspects as they apply to women, and all the innocent victim aspects as they apply to men. That very strongly implies the belief that women are in fact at fault because women in general are bad and out to get men. Your actual words were borderline, but the implication behind them is definitely woman bashing.

Wouldn't it be fun to find out one day that the kid you spent 18+ years raising isn't your own? That actually happened to a family friend.

I realize a lot of people disagree with me, but I believe that being a parent is 100% about your time and care, and 0% about biologically contributing to the creation of that child. This may or may not have something to do with the fact that I'm the result of artificial insemination, and grew up with the knowledge that some random dude who jacked off in a cup may have been my genetic contributor, but my father was my father.

[Doctor Amadeus]

You insisted that material benefits (like tax rates and shared medical insurance) can be gotten while single even when they can't. I brought up intangible reasons and said they were psychological, meaning that everyone will see it differently, because psychological stuff lives only in our heads. You dismissed it because there's no physical evidence... of mental stuff. Right. Clearly this is something you're just going to have to file in the "I don't get it, but whatever. I understand that people see things differently" box, because you're not actually interested in hearing the answers to your questions.

I don't like to dismiss anything if there is an opprotunity to understand it, there are no legal rights that marriage can give you outside of a tax status and a title, that other legal works ups can not, medical insurance is something you can do seperatly unless you are having kids.




As for the answer to my questions, I asked, and several people gave a response, I was not expecting what they would be one way or another, but based on what people wrote, I am still convinced that marriage is pretty much outdated for all intense purposes that arent spiritual (religious) or for starting a family.

[v2prwsmb45yhuq3wj23vpjk]

Perhaps if you took some part of what i said out of context, and you skimmed it yeah, but no part from what i see and know i actually wrote suggest your claim either way, my comment was about both men and woman and our societies expectations leading them to want to play house, with a marriage, than actually wanting to get married after a seriously introspective decision on both parts to make that kind of choice.

Alright, sex aside, do you really think that marriage is just being used to 'play house'?