Anyone else hate Soul Reaper?

[fangless]

2h Frost SR = clunky. You have to sit there and game a Frost Rune, which means, well, just sitting there...and not hitting Obliterate right away...and relying on awesome RE RNG.

2h Frost doesn't use Blood Tap? BT makes using Soul Reaper much more simple and timely.

[Schizoide]

2H uses runic empowerment, but it's not a big deal if you prefer BT.

[Murdos]

I personally have no issue gaming out a Frost Rune with RE, So I'm not sure what people are bitching about.

[fangless]

2H uses runic empowerment, but it's not a big deal if you prefer BT.

Pretty sure BT sims higher and provides more runes overall, don't think I've seen anything otherwise.

But if it's coming down to that small of a dps gain, the user is likely to be DW anyhow.

[Schizoide]

I looked it up. The 2H frost T14H profile uses RE.

Edit: I just ran sims and you're right, BT does indeed win by 0.2% (10k iterations, 0.05% error margin). Not sure why the default profile uses RE, usually they are incredibly tightly optimized.

RE: 117814
BT: 118090

Of course you'd have to be crazy keybinding BT for 0.2% total performance. And like you said, if you're that hardcore you're DW anyway.

[Murdos]

Yeah, I keep trying to teach myself Plague Leech + BT for maximum possible DPS, it's a bit loony on the micromanagement in a lot of encounters, but I can definitely see how those things of all things would be EASIER as Dual Wield then 2H.

[Tehstool]

I looked it up. The 2H frost T14H profile uses RE.

Edit: I just ran sims and you're right, BT does indeed win by 0.2% (10k iterations, 0.05% error margin). Not sure why the default profile uses RE, usually they are incredibly tightly optimized.

RE: 117814
BT: 118090

Of course you'd have to be crazy keybinding BT for 0.2% total performance. And like you said, if you're that hardcore you're DW anyway.

Yeah, I keep trying to teach myself Plague Leech + BT for maximum possible DPS, it's a bit loony on the micromanagement in a lot of encounters, but I can definitely see how those things of all things would be EASIER as Dual Wield then 2H.

I have both keybound and monitor both

I wouldn't mind another button if it gave me a .2% dps increase tbh. I'm already doing whack a mole, adding another mole won't really do anything.

[Murdos]

Are you 2h frost?

Because right now the only stumbling block is the fact that BT as 2H frost requires a lot more frost strike throughput to power a double-rune ability like Obliterate, it'd be WAY easier as Dual-Wield since you're only gaming one rune per ability back, way more throughput per frost strike.

Plague Leech is just annoying, but hardly the same kind of hurdle for 2H Frost as using BT effectively compared to RE.

[Tehstool]

Are you 2h frost?

Because right now the only stumbling block is the fact that BT as 2H frost requires a lot more frost strike throughput to power a double-rune ability like Obliterate, it'd be WAY easier as Dual-Wield since you're only gaming one rune per ability back, way more throughput per frost strike.

Plague Leech is just annoying, but hardly the same kind of hurdle for 2H Frost as using BT effectively compared to RE.

My alt dk is DW, but I have no problem with those 2 extra buttons. It may be because I'm a hunter and am already used to a lot of buttons.

[Vereesa]

I looked it up. The 2H frost T14H profile uses RE.

Edit: I just ran sims and you're right, BT does indeed win by 0.2% (10k iterations, 0.05% error margin). Not sure why the default profile uses RE, usually they are incredibly tightly optimized.

RE: 117814
BT: 118090

Of course you'd have to be crazy keybinding BT for 0.2% total performance. And like you said, if you're that hardcore you're DW anyway.

I fail to see how that can be the case since every single rune for 2H goes toward Obliterate (well, pre 35% anyway) and RE just straight-up grants more runes than BT does. And for the aforementioned reason I found myself starved a lot more often during my few short dummy tests. Or is it solely due to SR that BT pulls marginally ahead?

[Murdos]

Yeah you're missing the point of why BT is rough for 2H Frost then.

BT for DW is very natural because every time you press it, you get one Howling Blast back, and your Frost Strike does a more significant portion of your overall damage, pressing frost strike more often gets you more howling blasts, which gets you more frost strikes via BT, it's pretty neatly tied up; heck simpler then RE gaming for the same spec.

Not as simple for 2H frost, as you're having to game back two runes, and ideally line them up in pairs with already-regenerating runes rather then spam it for two fresh ones all the time, because unlike DW, Frost Strike is MUCH less of our overall damage between the mastery difference, Threat of Thassarian and lack of razorice, so ideally we don't want to press it more because that ends up a damage loss. Instantly, it becomes more of an overall hurdle then RE gaming because you are locked to a literal rote amount of runes per frost strike, per rune set. This is one of the instances of RE gaming's probability vs. rote predictiably coming out ahead, even if it is a gamble.

That, is why it's only a .2% DPS increase, because really you have to play with ABSOLUTE perfection to notice a DPS increase beyond RE gaming, beyond that it'll break even, or just 'feel' better for you, and hey if it feels better do it. But it's mechanical nature with Obliterate makes it far less of an obvious choice then it is for dual wield.

Plague Leech is only annoying because I still haven't run down exactly when I can and cannot use it. It likes to just not go off at random between the 3 and 7 second mark left on Blood Plague. I'd like to get it locked down neatly before 5.2, lots of single-target fights there this coming tier. :/

[Pickwickman]

As far as I know SR isn't affected by vengeance, unlike HS. I think the max hit I've ever had even with full Vengeance was around 140k. While a HS at full vengeance can go just as high if not higher.

Elegon HC, 10 stacks, 1.4Million Crit Soul Reaper. It is your bread and butter if you want to improve your blood dps and it's obscenely easy to do.

[Totle]

RP costs are not remotely close for any of the 3 DPS specs, and there is a large disparity in RP generation between Unholy and Frost. DW Frost receives the largest penalty by far, then Unholy, then 2H Frost. Unholy's can potentially be higher depending on what they do with SI.

As long as it even has a resource cost that is the same for all specs, this disparity exists.

Just be glad that it isn't a death rune only spell.

30 RP (compared to 30 rage for Execute) is not hard to get by any spec. Especially considering HoW gives 10 and each rune ability gives 10/rune.

Unholy - Scourge Strike + anything + HoW
Frost (both specs) - HoW + Obliterate
Blood - HoW + Death Strike

[Seezer]

I soul reap like it's my job in pvp.

[Razorice]

Soul Reaper isn't that bad to be honest, it just requires some skill and calculation. The REAL problem is that some people in WoW like an easy way out. Some of you complain that there is no class diversity, but you want DK's to have a warriors execute type of ability. Blizzard gave us an execute (which was needed for a while, IMO) and made it different and fun.

[Morbycakes]

I fail to see how that can be the case since every single rune for 2H goes toward Obliterate (well, pre 35% anyway) and RE just straight-up grants more runes than BT does. And for the aforementioned reason I found myself starved a lot more often during my few short dummy tests. Or is it solely due to SR that BT pulls marginally ahead?

BT wins because of SR and the ability to game procs for KM'ing Oblits more. Not to mention it's vastly superior in situations where you are GCD capped and are already Rune capped, as you can avoid wasting procs much more than you can RE. Oh and then there is RNG vs Control.

[forwards1ca]

Meh, the whole debate about BT vs. RE is pointless...you guys are arguing abotu less that a 1% increase in dps.....more like 0.2 or 0.3%. Over time, you will definitely get more runes back from RE than for BT, and IMO, having the extra buton to watch for BT and having to wait to build up charges for BT (and the fact that it costs 5 to use but you only get a max of 12) is just a pain.

Back to the original topic. I must say, allthe love that SR has been getting on this thread has made me to try it out more. It CAN be a very useful spell to use. The problem I see is that if the target gets healed before SR detonates, you've wasted a GCD and a rune on a very weak attack. Timing it properly is awesome, but in the chaotic environment of pvp, this is very difficult. When it works, it is a thing of beauty - allows for early target switches, and can really help deal with the problem of getting kited (especially with displacer...nothing more awesome than getting a SR off on a druid and watchign them displacer away but seeing them die from it). When it doesn't work because the target gets healed its very annoying. If they changed it so that it did a check on the targets hp on application AND before detonation and if either was <35% it would go off, that would make it very useful. I dont know how realistic that is, but SR definitely needs a change to make it more useful in pvp

[Pickwickman]

Meh, the whole debate about BT vs. RE is pointless...you guys are arguing abotu less that a 1% increase in dps.....more like 0.2 or 0.3%. Over time, you will definitely get more runes back from RE than for BT, and IMO, having the extra buton to watch for BT and having to wait to build up charges for BT (and the fact that it costs 5 to use but you only get a max of 12) is just a pain.

Back to the original topic. I must say, allthe love that SR has been getting on this thread has made me to try it out more. It CAN be a very useful spell to use. The problem I see is that if the target gets healed before SR detonates, you've wasted a GCD and a rune on a very weak attack. Timing it properly is awesome, but in the chaotic environment of pvp, this is very difficult. When it works, it is a thing of beauty - allows for early target switches, and can really help deal with the problem of getting kited (especially with displacer...nothing more awesome than getting a SR off on a druid and watchign them displacer away but seeing them die from it). When it doesn't work because the target gets healed its very annoying. If they changed it so that it did a check on the targets hp on application AND before detonation and if either was <35% it would go off, that would make it very useful. I dont know how realistic that is, but SR definitely needs a change to make it more useful in pvp

Necrotic Strike more. It does quite a hefty amount of damage, and even as Frost you can pump out 4 of them back to back (Blood Tap). It is HUGE in PvP if you know how to pull it off. And ofcourse in the time that you basically neuter the healing your teammate can get him down to 35% without an issue.

[forwards1ca]

Necrotic Strike more. It does quite a hefty amount of damage, and even as Frost you can pump out 4 of them back to back (Blood Tap). It is HUGE in PvP if you know how to pull it off. And ofcourse in the time that you basically neuter the healing your teammate can get him down to 35% without an issue.

Not always possible. It would be nice if people could post well thought out comments on a thread instead of asinine ones like this. If the answer was as simple as "stack more necros" people would just do that and dks would be massively overpowered. With the change to necro in MoP (which I HATE) it makes it much, much harder to stack necros. If the stars align and you get lucky, this is a simple thing....however, it rarely happes that way. Like I said, I am really starting to like SR, but it is still awkward to use and you often get screwed over with it when the target gets healed.

[SSHA778]

30 RP (compared to 30 rage for Execute) is not hard to get by any spec. Especially considering HoW gives 10 and each rune ability gives 10/rune.

You're missing the heart of the issue.

What is 30 RP to DW Frost? It is 2.05 FS's and 0.92 HB's.
What is 30 RP to 2H Frost? It is also 2.05 FS's, but 0.46 OB's and 0.21 HB's.
What is 30 RP to Unholy? It is 1.07 DC's, 0.43 SS's, and a variable amount of DT uptime depending on DC frequency.

The damage of these is not remotely comparable.

Unholy also barely generates enough RP on average to use this SR on CD with a 30 RP cost, whereas Frost has no problem with this availability.