Where have all the Raiders Gone?

[Glorious Leader]

I'm sure that without the honor PVP gear(the 'only' realistic catchup method - elder charm of 28.50 gold is not a catchup) the ToT participation would have dropped even more.

Back to TBC days where people pvpd to pve


Oh plus massive iLvl requirements(500~515), which is quite time consuming to achieve without any catchups

You know and another thing the rep/valor this tier is so backwards. The guilds struggling are the ones who need the valor gear. If their struggling they aren't getting the rep from downed bosses and aren't getting valor gear. The heroic guilds don't need the damn valor gear but they've got all the rep already and can buy it. It's so stupid, I'll be capped on valor and have bought the pieces available to me before I have the rep to buy any more pieces.

[Andaja]

There are a few issues, which imho are: no real catch up mechanics and constantly increasing content.
The lack of catch up mechanics eliminates those that deceide to take a break or new people. Currently the ctach up is do millions of dailies that take large amounts of time. That is not what people want. Those dailies might be fun and interesting the first few times, but not for 3 weeks or so. While you could say you don't need to do them all, but that still leaves enough to have to spend more then an hour on stuff that is totally not fun. We also have an option of lfr, but lets be honest, they relyably get you to some point, which is 480, from then on its entirely rng to get to that 504 level. And even with good luck that's more or less weeks of clears until you get yourself deced out with gear, since you might come out of lfr without a single gear. Even if you usecoins, that's again, dailies. If you atleast knew that you always get an item a week, it would be better, since youd know something for sure. Before you could atleast farm heroic for gear or jp/vp an be sure that in such and such time you will be ready. Now the time has either increased by a lot or you are relying on pure luck.
Now about raid getting harder.It is needed, but lately I see a lot of dodge the rain like abilities , ontop of a lot of previous abilities. This seems like abit of an overkill especially on the number of abilities. A lot of the fights starts to feel like hc fights rather then normal. It is no surprise that if you keep on increasing difficulty the amount of players that can keep up with it will decrease. While you could say - wouldn't they just improve, no they won't.
So if you combine those two, well see one of the possible reason why raiders are at decline. While this system could work if it was right after tbc, but its been two expansions. you can't expect people to be able to adapt back into the old habits in just a month or two. And by the time they will, this game might be already finished.
Now how to describe normal, that's the hard part, since normal changes from person to person, but having multitast like encounters always felt belonging more towards hc rather than normal mode, but apparently that's the subject of matter this tier.

[Firebert]

Charging for server transfers would only decrease subs ....

Probably, because they're striking a different balance than WoW is between money and consumer happiness.

Please try to continue having a conversation and stop modifying my posts to try and make me look like an idiot. It just makes you look like you're grasping at staws.

[Coldkil]

10man normal nerfs imho weren't much needed for a kill, but will help the progress. Always hoping to get people online to actually start the raid. If we can manage to 2heal the fights, we will go much faster through the content (players are fine, dps are good, healers need some more gear).

Hope this slows a little the bleeding in raiders - people want progress, so they look for high-end guilds. Guilds who are a little behind just lose players and don't get any way to find new people.

[Vaelorian]

Not really, because what they need to do is a change in the design philosophy back to the one of the most successful expansion, Wrath, were Normal raids were designed for NORMAL players, not a hotfix a couple of bosses after 6 weeks of them being stupidly overtuned.

It will help to stop some people that were close to leaving though.

Normals were never designed for JUST normal players. Normals were also designed for PUGS. Now PUGS are left to go to LFR basically unless they have a semi PUG of perhaps non-guildrelated but very close "skilled" friends. So Blizzard is leaving the PUGS to LFR. Which is fine. And have normal finally be challenging for guilds who want to progress in normal.

So in other words (and I am not saying that normal is at the right difficulty setting right now) Normal raiders are finally getting a challenge instead of just downing a new progress boss every day/week. I mean our heroic raiding guild downed usually 1 normal boss a day - sometimes 2 and sometimes 3 when we were doing 25 man. Is that normal? Well we were out to get heroic so perhaps yes for us that was "normal". When we got to heroic we usually did one heroic boss a week, sometimes 2 and sometimes it took a month for just one to fall down.

When "us" heroic raiders would down a heroic boss in one evening, we were dissapointed basically. And I am sure that when "normal" raiders down a boss in one evening you feel the same right? Whats the point in raiding if the content is so easy? So now Blizzard made that a bit more difficult. Perhaps a tad too difficult. I don't know I am not Blizzard. But really you want the easypeasy content back from Normals in Cata and WOTLK? I don't think that would be better at all. And you do have LFR ya know. You can even go as a guild into LFR, so you still raid with your guild.

Wait what? You still want to have a feeling of progression instead of a lootpinata? Well then man up and bash your head in a bit more then you are prepared to do now and pray Blizzard nerfs the content perhaps a LITTLE BIT. But please don't say that you want the normal difficulty of earlier expansions. That was just an insult.

[Deleted]

Over 70% of raid groups fail because of logistical problems?

Totally.

How many people do you know who set up a raiding group, only for it to disband and stop just a few weeks later.

This type of raiding group surely must make up the complete and utter vast majority of all raiding groups in WoW.

[Vaelorian]

Totally.

How many people do you know who set up a raiding group, only for it to disband and stop just a few weeks later.

This type of raiding group surely must make up the complete and utter vast majority of all raiding groups in WoW.

I agree totally - especially since the easy way out is right there... LFR

[Deleted]

I agree totally - especially since the easy way out is right there... LFR

All normal raiders want is some places that requires a little bit of teamwork while they shoot the shit over vent on a weekend.

You've got this idea that they are looking for a challenge and it simply isn't so. A raid you can learn to clear in one or two weeks and then farm the shit out of for a few months so all your guild/alt is geared up is just about perfect for such players. Any more than 6 -10 wipes on anything is way too much for most players.

The average normal raider certainly doesn't want to be sinking 70 wipes into garalon type encounters.

[Vaelorian]

All normal raiders want is some places that requires a little bit of teamwork while they shoot the shit over vent on a weekend.

You've got this idea that they are looking for a challenge and it simply isn't so. A raid you can learn to clear in one or two weeks and then farm the shit out of for a few months so all your guild/alt is geared up is just about perfect for such players. Any more than 6 -10 wipes on anything is way too much for most players.

The average normal raider certainly doesn't want to be sinking 70 wipes into garalon type encounters.

Well that is all fine then but what is wrong with LFR then? I am not trying to insult you btw - it is an honest question.

[Glorious Leader]

Totally.

How many people do you know who set up a raiding group, only for it to disband and stop just a few weeks later.

This type of raiding group surely must make up the complete and utter vast majority of all raiding groups in WoW.

OR the recent hot fixes suggest that the raid especially on 10 man is to difficulty.

---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 12:22 PM ----------

Well that is all fine then but what is wrong with LFR then? I am not trying to insult you btw - it is an honest question.

Because it's to easy. That's the point. Normal should equal MEDIUM. It doesn't.

[Deleted]

Well that is all fine then but what is wrong with LFR then? I am not trying to insult you btw - it is an honest question.

LFR isn't a place you can take 9 friends and shoot the shit with over vent on a weekend.

It's a place where you can have 9 friends and 15 complete strangers, many of whom are dickheads. It's not a place you can take a green geared mate along to so he can get some gear. And neither is normal mode.

Theres a gap between LFR and normal mode which didn't used to be here, doesn't have to be there and in all honesty probably shouldn't be there.

[Crashdummy]

Totally.

How many people do you know who set up a raiding group, only for it to disband and stop just a few weeks later.

This type of raiding group surely must make up the complete and utter vast majority of all raiding groups in WoW.

Weird, because many of them seem to have fixed their logistical problem, since the 13k empress guild kills jumped to 18k with just a 10% nerf...

And i am guessing that number will go up a lot more with the Garalon enrage timer nerf.

So no, i'm sorry, its not about logistics, its about difficulty.

---------- Post added 2013-04-11 at 09:29 AM ----------

I agree totally - especially since the easy way out is right there... LFR

You would be wrong too. Again, the number increased by 50% (13k to 18k) with just a 10% nerf, so it isnt about logistics or about people stop trying to go for LFR.

People tried, and failed, and kept trying, and kept failing, because HoF N was DAMMED HARD for normal players.

[Deleted]

Well let us look at it this way:

I've seen discussions in this thread about why normal is so hard. I've seen 1 post by someone who said: normal is now more catered towards people who are at the very least an organised guild. Because PUG's are effectively been pushed to LFR aswell as any other player who has no time to commit to the game on a scheduled base.

Normals therefor could be made harder and actually provide a challenge for guilds whom normal was always a goal to complete.

Heroics are for the true commited raiders.

----------------
I think there is much wisdom inhere. I do think that the way raids are currently tuned (the 2nd boss of a raid is the hardest instead of the last boss) is a bit daft. Still remember that during TBC (yes TBC) people progressed throughout "old" content. I see people in this thread only doing current content and not being able to defeat the new while they weren't done with the "old" content.

How daft is that? If you don't care about your progress other then "fun" which many of you claim. What makes you think you can go "undergeared" and this "unprepared" into a new higher instance? You think you can down that? Is that the WOTLK/Cata mindset speaking here? Because since those expansion, you could just waltz right into the new content because there was a 5 man dungeon dropping gear that made skipping content that wasn't current anymore, possible.

Now you don't really have that. Yes you get a few upgrades but it is not enough. As in TBC you couldn't go from Karazhan straight into Black Temple or even Sunwell. You would have your ass handed to you. And rightly so because that content wasn't designed for you.

----------------
Now I see people saying that: "but I pay for entertainment and this is not entertainment it is torture!"

Well then I guess LFR is now your domain isn't it? Appearantly your guildlevel of skill wasn't much better then the level of a PUG. Because normal was (during WOTLK/Cata) catered so that PUGS could clear it. Not anymore.

----------------

So is this really the case? Is the guildskilllevel really your issue? Or is the difficulty of normal just too damn high at the moment? I can't answer that. While I only have done 1 PUG (yes I pugged) on normal and came to Horridon as a dps warrior (while I have always have played a holy paladin) I can say that our skilllevel in that PUG was pretty horrid. People were healing really poor and the dps was around 60/120k difference from the lowest to the highest. It wasn't a fun fight. I think we came to the 3rd door and wiped everytime. Tanks were pretty non-experienced as they were newly created alts with sufficient gear, just like my dpswarrior was. So with our 10 man PUG on our first evening we came to door number 3. Whilst I am sure that if I everyone that was there was on their main, we might have downed it on the first evening. And while me about 6 of our group came from guilds that formerly always raided heroic raids... I don't think Horridon could be that devastating unless you are not willing to bash your head against it for while. I am not saying it is easy. Because it clearly isn't easy. But I think Blizzard tuned the fights pretty decent at the moment.

To come back to the topic where the raiders have gone:
They have gone to LFR. They haven't quit they just quit organised raiding. And that hurts the raiding community for fresh recruits. So should be done? Yes indeed, set the difficulty level a bit lower on normal. Not much ofcourse, don't make it a LFR - but a bit less hard wouldn't hurt much I think.

Then again I only do LFR at the moment and probably won't raid in organised for ever again.

I will quote you too because there is much truth in this post. Especially with PuG's moving to LFR and normals are finally left for organised guilds.
Also, I blame WOTLK for specific mindset of doing only last content while not finishing previous tiers. They are really easy now (on normal) and if you are struggling with Horridon you should revisit it and get some more gear + tackle with some of the easier heroic encounters. And buy your valor 522 gear.
Don't like nerfs though. Nothing worse then when you are progressing and wiping on low percentage nerf hits you and encounter is joke.

[Deleted]

Well that is all fine then but what is wrong with LFR then? I am not trying to insult you btw - it is an honest question.

The problem with LFR from a normal raider perspective, and yes I view myself as a raider who at the end of a content patch could have normal clear and probably 50-65% of the heroics down to.
The problem is Lfr is utterly unenjoyable and it is as mandatory as daylies and farming mats and capping valor is. So every new patch I would have to look forward to grinding away in this absolutely unenjoyable place only so that I could stay competetive and stay as best prepared to do those normal and heroic progression modes. In all propability there will always be a lot of upgrades in LFR.
At the end of the day I will just say I really do not want to waste my time on this.
So yes I choose to not raid LFR and I choose to stop raiding normal/heroic.

And I am all in for trying to be best prepared and to man up to the challenge, but asia themed mop has really brought the asian grind feel with it.
So yea maybe some people find it fun and accomplishing but me no not really. And I used to be one who would farm 30 dreamfoil 10 mountain silversage and a black lotus to get a flask.

@Injin what about that wrath model now. I certainly thought it was good for having fun on vent with friends raiding 10 man in the weekend. And then having the more challenging 25 man mode.
You want a fun social experience with a bit of challenge as a normal 10 man raider well wrath did include more in social raiding instead of LFR. And even those Pugs where fun.

[Glorious Leader]

Yea I wanted beer league raiding. Normals in wrath were exactly that. Just enough challenge that your pals could get together and have some fun but not so much challenge that you and your pals felt over whelmed. I wanted casual normal raiding. In my opinion 10 man normals really ought to be the casuals raiders raid of choice. They aren't anymore and it's precisely because of the difficulty. It sucks.

[Deleted]

The problem with LFR from a normal raider perspective, and yes I view myself as a raider who at the end of a content patch could have normal clear and probably 50-65% of the heroics down to.
The problem is Lfr is utterly unenjoyable and it is as mandatory as daylies and farming mats and capping valor is. So every new patch I would have to look forward to grinding away in this absolutely unenjoyable place only so that I could stay competetive and stay as best prepared to do those normal and heroic progression modes. In all propability there will always be a lot of upgrades in LFR.
At the end of the day I will just say I really do not want to waste my time on this.
So yes I choose to not raid LFR and I choose to stop raiding normal/heroic.

And I am all in for trying to be best prepared and to man up to the challenge, but asia themed mop has really brought the asian grind feel with it.
So yea maybe some people find it fun and accomplishing but me no not really.

@Injin what about that wrath model now. I certainly thought it was good for having fun on vent with friends raiding 10 man in the weekend. And then having the more challenging 25 man mode.
You want a fun social experience with a bit of challenge as a normal 10 man raider well wrath did include more in social raiding instead of LFR. And even those Pugs where fun.

Ah well, personally I am loving MOP (lol I know, I know) when i talk about the normal raiders, I am kinda referring to the people I know who can no longer make the grade and get left behind even though in previous tiers they were good enough. Game keeps getting harder and while I keep being able to keep up myself it's painful to have to not take old friends, or someone who just took a month off due to IRL and how has a load of farming to do etc simply because of tuning. I'm also looking at the wowprogress etc numbers and can see that T14 and T15 are overtuned for their audience.

I went strict 10 man back in wrath though, so cannot speak to it's effectiveness in that way. I will say that strict 10 man was crazily difficult without 25 man gear, fwiw.

[Deleted]

Who told you they are not trying to clear it now?

The 10% nerf is a joke anyway, because its not a problem of a 5 or 10% nerf. Also, some have cleared them after, the point is, why should you, as a NORMAL PLAYER, have to wait untill the content is old to clear the NORMAL MODE of it?

And no, they arent new untill you killl them, someone just joining WoW doesnt make Molten Core new.

The thing is, Normal raiding should be aimed to NORMAL players, not to heroic ones.

I didn't say anything about Molten Core, don't try to twist my words. I was talking about current expansion. 10% is not a joke because you also get new 522 gear from valor and 502 gear in LFR. When we went to Toes after killing Empress with 10% nerf we cleared it in 2 nights.

And to guy who was talking about Wowprogress. Our guild wasn't listed there until our GM didn't sign it up.

[Glorious Leader]

I didn't say anything about Molten Core, don't try to twist my words. I was talking about current expansion. 10% is not a joke because you also get new 522 gear from valor and 502 gear in LFR. When we went to Toes after killing Empress with 10% nerf we cleared it in 2 nights.

The new 552 valor gear is fucking backwards dude. I've bought the first 2 pieces and this week i'll have the 3rd but I won't have the rep to buy anything more. It's a dead end. The guilds who need the valor gear aren't gonna get the rep to buy the valor gear because their stuck on whatever boss. The guild who don't need it get all the rep and are in heroics now and don't need the valor gear by and large. It's a stupid unnecessary gate.

[Volitar]

25 man guilds are re-emerging all the time due to the ease of downing content once you get past the organizational hurdles.

I have yet to see any new 25 man guilds on any servers I play. The only 25 guilds I see actually are the ones left from Wotlk, and they are slowly dwindling too.

[Deleted]

The new 552 valor gear is fucking backwards dude. I've bought the first 2 pieces and this week i'll have the 3rd but I won't have the rep to buy anything more. It's a dead end. The guilds who need the valor gear aren't gonna get the rep to buy the valor gear because their stuck on whatever boss. The guild who don't need it get all the rep and are in heroics now and don't need the valor gear by and large. It's a stupid unnecessary gate.

Hm, I killed 3 bosses in normal. I am honored with Shado pan asault. How? LFR gives you rep and some of the quests in that new island (Champions of the Thunder king I believe). I have 5 items from valor and this week I'll get my sixth item. 1 item from neutral, 3 items from friendly, 3 items from honored.