I have a question.

[Justinwreck]

Hello, First off, By making this thread i have no intentions to offend anyone. I just want to understand the logic behind an argument I see all the time. Casual players will say that they can only raid twice a week or some other low amount, and that is the sole reason they are not clearing heroic modes. They use this argument, anytime anyone insinuates that they are not a good player. I have no doubt that in some cases, this is actually true. But it is unlikely to be true for the vast Majority of Cases. I myself raid 4 times a week, my guild is currently 10/14 Heroic. I consider myself to be a higher end raider.

The Question I have is this: How do Casual players who use this argument justify the people that Clear normal modes in the first week of their release?
and how do they explain the guilds that Clear Heroic content, only raiding one or two nights a week? And The most important of all. The world first guilds, raid nearly non-stop for the first few weeks of a teir. this is true, and this is why they kill it before the other guilds. But, After months of raiding your one or two nights a week, you have spent just as much, if not more time progressing on the exact same fights.

These things aggravate me, because I know that every player has the potential to be very very good. If they will just accept that they are not currently, and strive to get better. Simply doing research and talking to skilled players will net people vast amounts of improvement. Whereas thinking that they are the best and lying to themselves will not.

[Lora]

I consider myself casual and I'm 8/14H. Only raid 3 nights at 3 hours a piece.

[Justinwreck]

I consider myself casual and I'm 8/14H. Only raid 3 nights at 3 hours a piece.

I would also consider you casual. I don't consider my 10/14H to be good. I'm unhappy that we havent cleared the teir yet. But Roster issues have hurt us bad this teir

[Daetur]

The point of the argument is to point out that there are multiple variables at work when it comes to the amount of content someone has cleared. Both skill and time dedicated have an effect on progression.

When someone says "I only raid 2 nights a week, if I raided as much as you do, I would be farther progressed," they are pointing out that time dedicated is a variable that affects progression.

You raid twice or even four times as often as someone who raids only two or on night a week. You should reasonably be two-to-four times as progressed, assuming equal skill. It's also worth noting that guilds who raid less often also are more likely to miss farm and gear or feel forced to lock out to progress on later bosses. I'm absolutely a casual raider who raids 2 nights a week for 6 hours total, with 5/14H down right now. My guild would absolutely be farther progressed, however, if we were either more skilled or dedicated more time each week to progression, or were more strict about attendance. We've already missed several possible progresson weeks this tier, and are on vacation for the holidays until January right now. This obviously has an effect on our progression.

I do agree that people should always be focusing on bettering themselves instead of "blaming" the number of hours a week that they raid, but it is not unreasonable to present a smaller amount of time dedicated as a variable that affects progression.

[Deleted]

I consider myself casual and I'm 8/14H. Only raid 3 nights at 3 hours a piece.

That's because you have a different idea of casual then I do. 9 hours a week is not casual in my eyes, that's a normal raiding schedule. Casual is in 3-6 hours in my eyes, normal is 9-12 hours depending on progress and hardcore is close to 3 nights almost every night.

[thedingleberry]

I'd love to be 14/14H, but my problem is that every time I find a raiding guild, the other people in it end up not showing up for raid nights, and then wonder why content is not getting cleared when they are here. It's never me. I'm always on for raid night and performing well. I just have the bad luck of never finding other reliable players. Everyone else just sucks at making commitments.

[Deleted]

I'd love to be 14/14H, but my problem is that every time I find a raiding guild, the other people in it end up not showing up for raid nights, and then wonder why content is not getting cleared when they are here. It's never me. I'm always on for raid night and performing well. I just have the bad luck of never finding other reliable players. Everyone else just sucks at making commitments.

It has become worse with the rise of 10m raiding guilds. Guild hopping became so easy nobody gives a fuck who they raid with.

[Justinwreck]

It has become worse with the rise of 10m raiding guilds. Guild hopping became so easy nobody gives a fuck who they raid with.

Guild Loyalty is very very rare nowadays. I see people leave and fuck over their guilds every day. Rather unhappy to see it so fucked up

[Darsithis]

Casual is what you want to define.

My team is casual. We're 13/14 normal, raiding about...8 hours a week. It's not due to time that we're not in heroic modes, it's just that we don't focus on getting to that. We focus on fun along with progression in the normal mode and tackle a few heroics at the end when we feel like it.

Your team is casual because you think you are.

[Justinwreck]

Casual is what you want to define.

My team is casual. We're 13/14 normal, raiding about...8 hours a week. It's not due to time that we're not in heroic modes, it's just that we don't focus on getting to that. We focus on fun along with progression in the normal mode and tackle a few heroics at the end when we feel like it.

Your team is casual because you think you are.

I also dont understand that logic. "Fun Along with progression" Why would you raid, other than to kill the bosses. Its fun to kill the bosses and get the loot. That's the sole reason they're there. This argument implies, at least to me, that you're doing something other than trying to kill bosses during raid time.

[Darsithis]

I also dont understand that logic. "Fun Along with progression" Why would you raid, other than to kill the bosses. Its fun to kill the bosses and get the loot. That's the sole reason they're there

Because it's fun to do it with my guild mates and friends? We goof off. We have fun. We laugh and wipe and laugh again about it. Sure, like any raid team we get frustrated by a wall but overall it's for a few reasons:

- Shiny loot!
- Killing bosses for pets!
- Fun!

[Daetur]

I also dont understand that logic. "Fun Along with progression" Why would you raid, other than to kill the bosses. Its fun to kill the bosses and get the loot. That's the sole reason they're there. This argument implies, at least to me, that you're doing something other than trying to kill bosses during raid time.

No, it's also fun to dick around with your friends and take it easy in raid. Sure, the ultimate goal is also to kill the bosses, but if you're not taking it that seriously and just having fun, you can mess with each other on trash and bosses all you want. And that is fun for some people, even though it may not be for you.

It's the difference between 100% serious facing Garrosh attempts and "MC WENT OUT DOT THEM KILL THE HEALER" for shits and giggles. for some people, that kind of thing can be a lot of fun.

[DrStiglit]

I think they are just bad then. If I could dedicate two days a week with a dependable roster I could easily be on heroics. But I am casual and cannot dedicate any specific time to raiding. So I am only 2/10 norm.

But I honestly think anyone who can dedicate 2 days a week and has a dependable roster (this could easily be the issue for a lot of people) should be in heroics.

[Deleted]

That's because you have a different idea of casual then I do. 9 hours a week is not casual in my eyes, that's a normal raiding schedule. Casual is in 3-6 hours in my eyes, normal is 9-12 hours depending on progress and hardcore is close to 3 nights almost every night.

i have to agree with this post. you cant be classed as a casual while raiding 3 nights a week, 3 hrs each raid night.
casual to me, would be a few of hours here or there each week.

[Orcbert]

Hello, First off, By making this thread i have no intentions to offend anyone. I just want to understand the logic behind an argument I see all the time. Casual players will say that they can only raid twice a week or some other low amount, and that is the sole reason they are not clearing heroic modes. They use this argument, anytime anyone insinuates that they are not a good player. I have no doubt that in some cases, this is actually true. But it is unlikely to be true for the vast Majority of Cases. I myself raid 4 times a week, my guild is currently 10/14 Heroic. I consider myself to be a higher end raider.

The Question I have is this: How do Casual players who use this argument justify the people that Clear normal modes in the first week of their release?
and how do they explain the guilds that Clear Heroic content, only raiding one or two nights a week? And The most important of all. The world first guilds, raid nearly non-stop for the first few weeks of a teir. this is true, and this is why they kill it before the other guilds. But, After months of raiding your one or two nights a week, you have spent just as much, if not more time progressing on the exact same fights.

These things aggravate me, because I know that every player has the potential to be very very good. If they will just accept that they are not currently, and strive to get better. Simply doing research and talking to skilled players will net people vast amounts of improvement. Whereas thinking that they are the best and lying to themselves will not.

How many hours a night do you raid? We raid 4 hours total a week, sometimes 6 if we decide to meet on a Sunday. Where were you 2 months ago? If you raid twice as much as other guilds it's not a large leap to say you should be twice as far.

Honestly I don't think that my guild has spent as much time in SoO as the top end guilds did trying to clear heroics for the first week. I think the 10 man winner had more wipes on Garrosh than my raid does total.

As to why a casual guild doesn't progress as fast:
1. Tend to have less stability in the raid roster. We clear deep into SoO from a fresh run most the time on our first run of the week but sometimes we are missing some people. Our server has low population for Horde with only a handful of guilds even doing normal raids. Generally pugging someone or taking a B-team raider greatly slows the progress in one night.

2. The best way to clear a boss is to pound your head against it till your raid gets it down. Raiding twice a week gives us two options. Start fresh for gear with very little time to work on new bosses or extend the lockout and work the boss hard. Both have their merits. A solid 2 hours on a boss will generally get it down with a decent set of raiders but we're missing out on gearing for later fights. When you raid 4 times a week it's generally not one or the other. You have plenty of time for both.

3. Lets face it, a casual players guild isn't going to be as good as a not so casual guild for no other reason than you've spent double the amount of time doing it.

My raid just cleared Blackfuse and we're at a solid gear level that we think we'll just keep extending till Garrosh is down which we hope to have done by the new year. We'll probably clear a decent chunk of Heroic before the next expansion drops (as we do every time) but we hardly ever clear heroic completely before the next tier drops. I guarantee you if we spent double the time as you did we would. Also, we would clear in in less net hours due to the frequency of playing as you probably do.

Long story short, I don't think their lying to themselves. They are being realistic. Heroics take time and patience. They take a large amount of wipes that many don't find as fun.

And lastly, don't have vague titles to threads. You're thread name should tell people about what your post is about.

[Deleted]

i don't get it, you're saying the majority of people who don't do heroics due to time issues are bad players?

some people just don't want to sit there for 4 hours a night, regardless of whether its only 2 nights a week, doesn't mean they are a bad player.

[Justinwreck]

i don't get it, you're saying the majority of people who don't do heroics due to time issues are bad players?

some people just don't want to sit there for 4 hours a night, regardless of whether its only 2 nights a week, doesn't mean they are a bad player.

Im saying, that The Majority of people, are not as good as they could be. And instead of trying to be good at the game (Which does not take as much of a time commitment as everyone thinks it does) They just blame that they cant raid as much as people in guilds like mine. I do think most of the wow community are bad players. (Totally going to catch hell for that) Hear me out on this, From a High end raiding stand point, If i go into another guild's group, on an alt, or helping out a less progressed guild on my server. It is painful to see people make Blatant mistakes, when its simple to not die to mechanics, and Press your buttons in the proper order. A lot of it is things people just dont know, and They dont care enough to try and better themselves. They just say "Oh, my gear isnt as good as yours cause we dont kill those bosses cause we dont raid as much as you do, How dare you think im a bad player, Im Flawless"

[Mawnix]

I also dont understand that logic. "Fun Along with progression" Why would you raid, other than to kill the bosses. Its fun to kill the bosses and get the loot. That's the sole reason they're there. This argument implies, at least to me, that you're doing something other than trying to kill bosses during raid time.

Everyone's different. Everyone thinks differently and thus considers other aspects of something different than you might.

That's the whole issue we run into on these forums and with the philosophies Blizzard now implements into their games. Since you have a different definition on what "casual" is, you're convinced your reasoning is right; no matter how another person puts it, you will still believe it is right.

It can't make sense to you. That's simply how you feel on the subject; another person however will feel differently and define it differently.

That's just how the world works.

[Daetur]

Im saying, that The Majority of people, are not as good as they could be. And instead of trying to be good at the game (Which does not take as much of a time commitment as everyone thinks it does) They just blame that they cant raid as much as people in guilds like mine. I do think most of the wow community are bad players. (Totally going to catch hell for that) Hear me out on this, From a High end raiding stand point, If i go into another guild's group, on an alt, or helping out a less progressed guild on my server. It is painful to see people make Blatant mistakes, when its simple to not die to mechanics, and Press your buttons in the proper order. A lot of it is things people just dont know, and They dont care enough to try and better themselves. They just say "Oh, my gear isnt as good as yours cause we dont kill those bosses cause we dont raid as much as you do, How dare you think im a bad player, Im Flawless"

You're trying to say, though, that the only factor in progresson is skill. It's not. Time dedicated is a factor as well, and that's why people make the argument that they would be farther progressed if they raided more hours per week.

[Justinwreck]

Last teir, I raided 3 nights a week. 11 1/2 Hours a week, and we ended the teir US 69th 25 man. That's not a huge amount, that's not super hardcore, and we got a decent rank. I just want people to realize that they can be better at the game than they are. I don't claim to be perfect at the game, I still work on my play constantly. But Many players don't Try, And its causing the game as a whole to decline.

- - - Updated - - -

You're trying to say, though, that the only factor in progresson is skill. It's not. Time dedicated is a factor as well, and that's why people make the argument that they would be farther progressed if they raided more hours per week.

No i recognize that guilds with more raid time will kill bosses before ones that raid less. I'm just saying, that many of these people who raid less cite their less raid time, as the only reason they haven't cleared normal modes, Which is simply not true. Skill is a larger factor than time investment.

http://www.wowprogress.com/guild/us/.../rating.tier15

This guild proves my point. They were a 1 night a week guild and successfully cleared Heroic ToT while it was current content.