Time to nerf echo of elements?

[Illana]

-actually it has a set up - flame shock, its not much but it is a set up
-its not up fore debate, hunters have far more mobility, yes shamans can not be snared below 100% if they have the glyph (which most elementals don't get)
-lightning bolt hit NO WHERE CLOSE to lava burst, lightning bolts crits do less damage then a none flame shock lava burst.
-half hp is kill zone atm for everyone vs every proper team, thats the state of the game.
you died while trying to los, with a warrior on you and lava surge procing, and your "but my burst needs this this and this" all controllable and instant easily pulled off.

ok it has very minor setup

what other glyphs would an ele take? Lightning shield, hex and? sham rage vs mages/paladins maybe. Thunder i don't think anyone uses and spiritwalkers grace doesn't seem that useful in pvp.

I've seen lightning bolt crit for 90k+

half hp zone is kill zone IF you had setup for it (like healer in cc or kill target stunned or something)

[Deleted]

NOOOO NONONNO
This is the reason why I leveled a shaman.

[Illana]

Your rating shows your current capability in PvP, which isn't very high.
The talent isn't broken, it's just silly. In fact, the talent is actually pretty bad in comparison to the other 2. And, as others have said, if the shaman had taken Unleashed Fury, more pressure would have been put out; you are complaining about the worst talent in the tier.

you should stop posting because you have no idea what you're talking about.

last time you got into a debate with me you just ended up failing epically and this one seems to be going down the same route.

unleashed fury isn't even in the same tier fyi.

[zenga]

and theres no gap in between lava burst+echo+overload

so once again: you are wrong.

Your talent to talk nonsense is amazing. I haven't said anything that is wrong, just like in that other thread I back it up with basic math. You bring in new irrelevant stuff with every reply, with zero evidence, ignoring every form of basic logic. First you argue that the damage happens in 2 globals, when I clearly show you the dmg takes place over the course of 1 global you bring in the fact that there is no gap between lvb+echo to claim that I'm wrong. Wrong about what? Guess what, no one claimed otherwise. The point was that hunters can do similar damage over the course of 1 global. The fact that the ele does his dmg in the same millisecond and the hunter over the course of 1 global was irrelevant for that point.

You are either a giant troll, or you are just not capable to discuss anything in an intellectual honest way. And not only with points I bring up, but with many posters here. You call everyone idiots and tell them they are wrong while you just keep sprouting nonsense.

Oh and guess what, you failed to tranq shot his 2 main dmg modifiers (unleash elements and clearcasting) since there is no other way to do that amount of damage with his gear, while you were half health, and while he had several procs up (again because there is no way to do that amount of dmg without it). None disputes that echo is a silly talent, but you met an ele for who the stars aligned while not purging what you should have purged and you call it out as being the new world problem. Coming from a class that has been disgustingly easy to play and OP, for pretty much entire MoP.

[Coldhearth]

Yea no, they really don't though. You have mail with a shield, as much armor as a hpally (like 1% below not really worth noting), 10% passive DR, get a free 30% last stand even while cc'd (that also heals that 30%), and have sham rage to use while stunned if necessary. Even being stunlocked they will almost never die since you need to get through ~700k health with all that DR. Add that to healing stream (plus glyph against casters), groundings, wind shear, and offheals and they are very very tanky. Add that to decurse and tremors for their healers and they have a pretty strong survivability package. Can't really argue that.

Shamans are not tanky at all. Do we even play the same game?

[Lolretadin]

you should stop posting because you have no idea what you're talking about.

last time you got into a debate with me you just ended up failing epically and this one seems to be going down the same route.

unleashed fury isn't even in the same tier fyi.

1) Says the 1600 hero. You have never made a post about PvP that has had any substance, this entire issue you have is no different. You are complaining about a talent that is strong 6% of the time.
2) Last debate I had with you (which I had to look up) was about Hunters and expertise. MoP is almost over and expertise is still a non-issue (It is high on the list for reforging and the like, but it has not affected Hunters adversely). On a side-note: it is a little sad that you remember every debate you have with people. It makes you seem a tad petty.
3) Meant Ancestral Swiftness, I got the talents mixed up. Doesn't really matter, as the point still stands, it is the worst in the tier for offensive pressure.

[Stormspellz]

ok it has very minor setup

what other glyphs would an ele take? Lightning shield, hex and? sham rage vs mages/paladins maybe. Thunder i don't think anyone uses and spiritwalkers grace doesn't seem that useful in pvp.

I've seen lightning bolt crit for 90k+

half hp zone is kill zone IF you had setup for it (like healer in cc or kill target stunned or something)

lightning shield, hex, healing stream, tstorm reduction

you seen 90k lb in pve or lol isle never in arena

with the burst in the game anytime at 50% is a potential kill.

[Illana]

lightning shield, hex, healing stream, tstorm reduction

you seen 90k lb in pve or lol isle never in arena

with the burst in the game anytime at 50% is a potential kill.

healing stream is situational. I don't think you will want healing stream over ghost wolf vs TSG for example.

No, I've seen 90k Lightning bolts in arena, it's entirely possible on classes without passive damage reductions. 70k is common for a crit.

kills require setup, melee need to be near the target, casters need to cast or use cooldowns. Echo with lava surge procs requires almost 0 setup and is completely random and unpredictable.

- - - Updated - - -

Your talent to talk nonsense is amazing. I haven't said anything that is wrong, just like in that other thread I back it up with basic math. You bring in new irrelevant stuff with every reply, with zero evidence, ignoring every form of basic logic. First you argue that the damage happens in 2 globals, when I clearly show you the dmg takes place over the course of 1 global you bring in the fact that there is no gap between lvb+echo to claim that I'm wrong. Wrong about what? Guess what, no one claimed otherwise. The point was that hunters can do similar damage over the course of 1 global. The fact that the ele does his dmg in the same millisecond and the hunter over the course of 1 global was irrelevant for that point.

You are either a giant troll, or you are just not capable to discuss anything in an intellectual honest way. And not only with points I bring up, but with many posters here. You call everyone idiots and tell them they are wrong while you just keep sprouting nonsense.

Oh and guess what, you failed to tranq shot his 2 main dmg modifiers (unleash elements and clearcasting) since there is no other way to do that amount of damage with his gear, while you were half health, and while he had several procs up (again because there is no way to do that amount of dmg without it). None disputes that echo is a silly talent, but you met an ele for who the stars aligned while not purging what you should have purged and you call it out as being the new world problem. Coming from a class that has been disgustingly easy to play and OP, for pretty much entire MoP.

I said: "by your logic then the ele did that damage in 0 globals" which is what you are saying.

If it takes one global for me to fire 2 instant cast skills, by your math it takes 0 globals to fire one instant cast skill.

I failed to tranq shot? You realise it has a resource cost? How can I magically predict when his RANDOM clearcasting procs are coming up, DISPEL BOTH of them on top of any other buffs he has up, DISPEL unleash before he has time to cast an INSTANT spell?

You are ridiculous, honestly.

- - - Updated - - -

1) Says the 1600 hero. You have never made a post about PvP that has had any substance, this entire issue you have is no different. You are complaining about a talent that is strong 6% of the time.
2) Last debate I had with you (which I had to look up) was about Hunters and expertise. MoP is almost over and expertise is still a non-issue (It is high on the list for reforging and the like, but it has not affected Hunters adversely). On a side-note: it is a little sad that you remember every debate you have with people. It makes you seem a tad petty.
3) Meant Ancestral Swiftness, I got the talents mixed up. Doesn't really matter, as the point still stands, it is the worst in the tier for offensive pressure.

neither have you, every post I've ever seen you make has been full of lies, omitted data and garbage.

our last debate on the subject of expertise was a prime example, I sourced many pieces of evidence and you just put your fingers in your ears and regurgitated more rubbish. Expertise is a HUGE issue for hunters still, I have almost no chance landing any meaningful damage on agility classes even in a 3vs3 situation unless the stars align and they get stunned in my LoS without a trinket and I have focus to spend. I have wyverns, scatters and chimeras dodged every game with an agility class present. Many crucial, gamebreaking plays have happened because my shots have been dodged. Thank fuck it's going in wod.

i knew what you meant but how does 5% spell haste and a instant cast on 1.5min cd randomly kill me from half hp?

[Coldhearth]

If a hunter is complaining about an ele shaman, it's a learn to play issue imo.

Ele shamans are the squishiest casters in the game. They do great damage, but it comes with a mobility/defensive CD price.

[Illana]

If a hunter is complaining about an ele shaman, it's a learn to play issue imo.

Ele shamans are the squishiest casters in the game. They do great damage, but it comes with a mobility/defensive CD price.

i dont really see your reasoning behind that tbh.

second highest armour in the game
healing stream
healing tide
sham rage
lightning shield glyph
nature's guardian

mobility?

lightning bolt on move
instant lava burst procs
ghost wolf glyph
freedom totem

even with all that: I'm not complaining about ele shamans as a whole, just this one idiotic talent.

[Mormolyce]

Won't happen unless they remove EotE's ICD.

Only ICDs with itself, doesn't it?

[apepi]

Echo of Elements is fine. Try to say above 40% so it does not matter if this happens or not. Just be glad the shaman was not speced into a better talent.

[Coldhearth]

Sorry, but if you're having problems with an ele shaman as a hunter, then it's most certainly a learn to play issue. They are a support class. 1v1 they don't really do much when any decent player of any class can lock them down. Have you ever played a shaman or are you just upset you got blown up by a lucky EoE lava burst proc?

[Terahertz]

If a hunter is complaining about an ele shaman, it's a learn to play issue imo.

Ele shamans are the squishiest casters in the game. They do great damage, but it comes with a mobility/defensive CD price.

Why do people keep saying this? How can people not use their minds to see how ridiculously tanky ele shamans -actually- are.

You have the highest armour of any caster DPS.
You have the strongest utility.
You have strong healing.
You have a last stand when you hit 25% every 30 seconds.

Besides that, you can still kite really well and position yourself extremely well because of lightning bolt on the move and earthbind totem.

Mages are far squishier than elementals are. I'd say elemental shamans are just below IF not at the same level of tankiness as warlocks are.

[Coldhearth]

Why do people keep saying this? How can people not use their minds to see how ridiculously tanky ele shamans -actually- are.

You have the highest armour of any caster DPS.
You have the strongest utility.
You have strong healing.
You have a last stand when you hit 25% every 30 seconds.

Besides that, you can still kite really well and position yourself extremely well because of lightning bolt on the move and earthbind totem.

Mages are far squishier than elementals are. I'd say elemental shamans are just below IF not at the same level of tankiness as warlocks are.

This coming from the same retard who said shamans wear plate.

[Deleted]

They are nerfing it in WoD. They're removing it.

[Deleted]

Looks like you ignored Flame Shock and it cost you.

Log Says you did:
Flame Shock - damage
Lava Burst
Lava Burst
Earth Shock << Shares same CD as Flame Shock. Which means you let it tick on you for a while, every tick has the chance for a Lava Burst proc, plus it's a damage modifier for Lava Burst.
Melee Damage
Lava Burst << That one killed you

[Blithe]

You have the highest armour of any caster DPS.
You have the strongest utility.
You have strong healing.
You have a last stand when you hit 25% every 30 seconds.

1. Granted, but I'm not surprised at all considering melee classes are our biggest hard counter, which is where physical damage comes from. I'd even go as far as saying we're the worst class to use against a melee cleave. Why LSD is so successful for Elemental is because Gateway completely eliminates our hard counter. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Warlocks. Besides, other classes make up for this by having more crowd control or mobility.

2. Of course we do, but we lack in almost every other area because of it. Anything a Shaman can do, another class can do better. We're designed around team play and that's the way it's always been.

3. Besides Healing Tide Totem, our healing is completely viable and any complaints towards the rest is obvious trolling. If you played an Elemental Shaman you'd realize that.

4. It's a talent, which we give up two other talents for, like every other class in the game. Not to mention that 25% extra health isn't 25% damage mitigation as people seem to think it is. As I said before, we're highly vulnerable to melee cleaves so that extra 25% health is basically a small breathing space.

P.S Nobody has a right to judge a class they've never played, and I assume you haven't based on your utterly stupid statements.

[Fearnor]

1. Granted, but I'm not surprised at all considering melee classes are our biggest hard counter, which is where physical damage comes from. I'd even go as far as saying we're the worst class to use against a melee cleave. Why LSD is so successful for Elemental is because Gateway completely eliminates our hard counter. If you have a problem with that, take it up with Warlocks. Besides, other classes make up for this by having more crowd control or mobility.

2. Of course we do, but we lack in almost every other area because of it. Anything a Shaman can do, another class can do better. We're designed around team play and that's the way it's always been.

3. Besides Healing Tide Totem, our healing is completely viable and any complaints towards the rest is obvious trolling. If you played an Elemental Shaman you'd realize that.

4. It's a talent, which we give up two other talents for, like every other class in the game. Not to mention that 25% extra health isn't 25% damage mitigation as people seem to think it is. As I said before, we're highly vulnerable to melee cleaves so that extra 25% health is basically a small breathing space.

P.S Nobody has a right to judge a class they've never played, and I assume you haven't based on your utterly stupid statements.

Elemental shamans have really strong survivabilty,its a fact and they arent really hard to play as a specc,these are the exacts words from a 2,2k cr elem shaman.I had to ask a friend about it and he agreed.The nature's guardian is one of the strongest talents in the game as well,rallying cry only for the shaman every 30 secs.Its true that shamans suffer from melees but which caster doesnt?
An other elemental shaman 2,7k cr is talking about the survibility of the specc as well "Eles are ridiculously tanky. If you can master enchant swapping you should never die vs anything in arena. Rockbiter passively gives 5% damage reduction and a further 40% on the target you use it on iirc. UF should be played 100% of the time as ele imo, ele blast just isn't as good. But eles take a passive 10% less damage, and have a 30% shield wall. Survivability is really not an issue for ele. "

[Raiju]

I would think a enhance shaman would be better for survival, since they can pump out more healing, and have all the same defensives as ele, plus spirit wolves. Also please give evidence rather than just claiming that it's the general opinion?

enha does more healing if they know how to interrupt, ele does more healing if they know to use defensives or any form of cc