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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellerix View Post
    I guess I can understand that, but putting me on the same "side" as the aggressors would still be wrong.
    But as a British national you would be an enemy of the US cause you, by being part of that nation, are at war with them.
    Whether you want to be or not dsnt make much of a difference.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thepersona View Post
    all wars cause suffering and i'm aware of that
    exactly, weapons are meant to cause bodily harm, which defacto cause suffering
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    But as a British national you would be an enemy of the US cause you, by being part of that nation, are at war with them.
    Whether you want to be or not dsnt make much of a difference.
    All I'm saying is, if you are put in a position where you have a choice between winning a war with minimum civilian casualties, and killing as many as possible to make a point, personally I'd always choose the former. This isn't me saying there definitely was a chance to reduce casualties by not using nukes, I don't know that, and as I said in my original post, I'm not completely against their use in ww2.

    I think from the conversation we have had so far though, we can draw a decent parallel to what is happening in the middle east right now, there a bunch of people who have declared war on your nation as well as others, however they are not supported by everybody. I just want to get your opinion on this, would you support nuking them too?

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thepersona View Post
    (by only targeting non-civilians and finishing the damn war the fastest way possible)
    Two sentiments that could contradict each other, especially in regards to a war like WW2.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  4. #304
    Back on the OP, hindsight is something the actual deciders did not had. They certainly did not had the impression that Japan was willing to surrender. ULTRA and MAGIC depicted a last ditch resistance, not to mention that the Japanese were trying to negotiate with the Soviet Union while sending peace feelers about the threat of communism.

  5. #305
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    Two sentiments that could contradict each other, especially in regards to a war like WW2.
    yeah, i know, and that's why im talking about recent wars
    for me conflicts are stupid, you can win much more by commerce
    Forgive my english, as i'm not a native speaker



  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarahtasher View Post
    Back on the OP, hindsight is something the actual deciders did not had. They certainly did not had the impression that Japan was willing to surrender. ULTRA and MAGIC depicted a last ditch resistance, not to mention that the Japanese were trying to negotiate with the Soviet Union while sending peace feelers about the threat of communism.
    I also agree with this, it's very hard to judge anybody involved in the decision due to the circumstances they were in, I can't say I definitely wouldn't have done the same if I had been the one. All we can do is learn from the past and try to make sure nothing like that happens again, to the best of our ability.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vellerix View Post
    All I'm saying is, if you are put in a position where you have a choice between winning a war with minimum civilian casualties, and killing as many as possible to make a point, personally I'd always choose the former.
    What do you mean by 'making a point'? The nukes were meant to 'persuade' Japan to surrender.

    Civilians are part of the war effort, especially in total wars such as WW2. Inflicting strain and hardship on them reduces their productivity and thus their nations ability to wage war.

    Which is generally why all participants blew the living hell out of each others cities.
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  8. #308
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    Truman conducted a very basic cost benefit analysis.

    A invasion on the japanese homeland would've killed many more on both sides. It would've destroyed land, labor, and capital.

    The atomic bombs preserved resources on both sides that would've otherwise been expended senselessly.

    The bomb worked out for the better for both the U.S and Japan's balance sheet.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    What do you mean by 'making a point'? The nukes were meant to 'persuade' Japan to surrender.

    Civilians are part of the war effort, especially in total wars such as WW2. Inflicting strain and hardship on them reduces their productivity and thus their nations ability to wage war.

    Which is generally why all participants blew the living hell out of each others cities.
    You know what, you've convinced me, you are actually right. Still, if there was a gnats wing of a chance I could have saved those people, I would have tried. Oh, and by sending a message I meant that you could have literally dropped a nuke off the coast or some shit and then said "next ones on your capital".

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylock View Post
    You're clearly failing to see the bigger picture.

    Had the US government NOT dropped the bombs on those two cities (resulting in 200K deaths), it is estimated that MILLIONS of people both on the side of Japan and the US (and our allies) would have died due to a massive land invasion. MILLIONS. Which includes civilian casualties as a natural result of WAR.

    So in this case, Truman made the right decision because it prevented many more lives from being destroyed than dropping the bomb.
    not true japan had already made plans to surrender despite that sneak attack tactic. Also picturing it in a moral way at least those civlians would get to fight for there lives you dont get that option when a bomb drops on your head and blow everything up. after that the cold war where russia and america threatened to nuke each other and i can safely say i wouldent want to have two truman type guys making the calls at that point.

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by nemerus View Post
    not true japan had already made plans to surrender despite that sneak attack tactic. Also picturing it in a moral way at least those civlians would get to fight for there lives you dont get that option when a bomb drops on your head and blow everything up. after that the cold war where russia and america threatened to nuke each other and i can safely say i wouldent want to have two truman type guys making the calls at that point.
    And apparently despite refusing pleas from the entire international community, even their former allies, to surrender.

    That twisted fucks that ran Japan at the time were ready to take their country to the ground and anyone else with it. Japanese civilians were already suffering a great deal before the bombing.

  12. #312
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    yeah, especially the second one was tottally needed, they might have not noticed the first one...

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by vassilisz View Post
    yeah, especially the second one was tottally needed, they might have not noticed the first one...
    They did, and were told to surrender.

    They didn't.

  14. #314
    You have also to consider that in 1945, Truman, very recently sworn in and not especially familiar with nuclear physics (same for all his military staff) did not knew exactly what was an atomic bomb.

    And the thing that made nuclear weapons ghastly, that is long term radioactivity from fallout, was unforeseen by even those nuclear scientists. But for Marshall, Eisenhower and co., it was a very powerful bomb. Sure, way more powerful that the ones they were dropping, but not that different in effects.

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skorpionss View Post
    It saved no lives, the Japanese were already willing to surrender, they just didn't want to surrender unconditionally like the US wanted... That's the only thing the 2 bombs accomplished... In fact that's what the 1st bomb accomplished, the 2nd was unnecessary... I don't have a source right now though coz I'm at work but if I remember about this thread when I get back home I'll post it here
    And here is the source : http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-rea...-lives/5308192

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Partysaurus Rex View Post
    I love these baseless numbers.
    They're not baseless.

    They're estimates from Operation Downfall.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operat...ted_casualties
    Putin khuliyo

  17. #317
    Quote Originally Posted by Djalil View Post
    That must have been a poorly written research paper then considering that there had been a change of government for the very reason to end the war in a diplomatic way, considering how japan had been already carpet bombed several time and what was left of its army and factories was absolutely unable to do anything.
    Yeah "Japanese people fight even after being set on flame". Sounds reasonable.
    Did that one go on your research paper too?
    Following is a post under this topic related with this and my response to it:
    Quote Originally Posted by unbound View Post
    I would recommend reading some interesting parts of history - http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v16/v16n3p-4_Weber.html

    Some money quotes:
    "Even before the Hiroshima attack, American air force General Curtis LeMay boasted that American bombers were "driving them [Japanese] back to the stone age." Henry H. ("Hap") Arnold, commanding General of the Army air forces, declared in his 1949 memoirs: "It always appeared to us, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse." This was confirmed by former Japanese prime minister Fumimaro Konoye, who said: "Fundamentally, the thing that brought about the determination to make peace was the prolonged bombing by the B-29s."

    "In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)"

    "By early July the US had intercepted messages from Togo to the Japanese ambassador in Moscow, Naotake Sato, showing that the Emperor himself was taking a personal hand in the peace effort, and had directed that the Soviet Union be asked to help end the war. US officials also knew that the key obstacle to ending the war was American insistence on "unconditional surrender," a demand that precluded any negotiations. The Japanese were willing to accept nearly everything, except turning over their semi-divine Emperor. Heir of a 2,600-year-old dynasty, Hirohito was regarded by his people as a "living god" who personified the nation. (Until the August 15 radio broadcast of his surrender announcement, the Japanese people had never heard his voice.) Japanese particularly feared that the Americans would humiliate the Emperor, and even execute him as a war criminal."

    TL;DR - the atomic bombs were never necessary. Only US historical revisionism pushes the supposed need for the bombs. But I strongly recommend reading the linked article. A ton of facts are provided there.
    Quote Originally Posted by ZenX View Post
    Not really accurate, it is a weak argument considering how he was only one of the 9 prime ministers that was in office within that 10-year period. Furthermore, Fumimaro Konoe left office before Pearl Harbor.

    The prime ministers of the period in order were Kōki Hirota > Senjūrō Hayashi > Fumimaro Konoe > Hiranuma Kiichirō > Nobuyuki Abe > Mitsumasa Yonai > Fumimaro Konoe > Hideki Tojo > Kuniaki Koiso > Kantaro Suzuki

    The emperor was paraded as being peaceful in the aftermath so that he would not get executed for the war crimes (See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes for the list, the details could be traced from the credible references listed).
    I would be interested in seeing your credible references on historical records regarding the peace-effort of Japan prior to the bombings.

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    kinda of a moot point to me

    The whole point of war is to inflict as much death/destruction/pain/suffering as possible
    uh? no actually. Thats not the point at all?

  19. #319
    Quote Originally Posted by Hubcap View Post
    We are gathered here, representatives of the major warring powers, to conclude a solemn agreement whereby peace may be restored.

    The issues involving divergent ideals and ideologies have been determined on the battlefields of the world, and hence are not for our discussion or debate.

    Nor is it for us here to meet, representing as we do a majority of the peoples of the earth, in a spirit of distrust, malice, or hatred.

    But rather it is for us, both victors and vanquished, to rise to that higher dignity which alone befits the sacred purposes we are about to serve, committing all of our peoples unreservedly to faithful compliance with the undertakings they are here formally to assume.

    It is my earnest hope, and indeed the hope of all mankind, that from this solemn occasion a better world shall emerge out of the blood and carnage of the past -- a world founded upon faith and understanding, a world dedicated to the dignity of man and the fulfillment of his most cherished wish for freedom, tolerance, and justice.

    The terms and conditions upon which surrender of the Japanese Imperial Forces is here to be given and accepted are contained in the Instrument of Surrender now before you.

    As Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers, I announce it my firm purpose, in the tradition of the countries I represent, to proceed in the discharge of my responsibilities with justice and tolerance, while taking all necessary dispositions to insure that the terms of surrender are fully, promptly, and faithfully complied with.

    I now invite the representatives of the Emperor of Japan and the Japanese government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters to sign the Instrument of Surrender at the places indicated.
    The logical response - when facing defeat and having gotten nuked twice is then to sign:

    We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China, and Great Britain on 26 July 1945 at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers.

    We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese Armed Forces and all Armed Forces under Japanese control wherever situated.

    We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilities forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property, and to comply with all requirements which may be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction.

    We hereby command the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters to issue at once orders to the commanders of all Japanese forces and all forces under Japanese control wherever situated to surrender unconditionally themselves and all forces under their control.

    We hereby command all civil, military, and naval officials to obey and enforce all proclamations, orders, and directives deemed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be proper to effectuate this surrender and issued by him or under his authority; and we direct all such officials to remain at their posts and to continue to perform their non-combatant duties unless specifically relieved by him or under his authority.

    We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government, and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever action may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that declaration.

    We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters at once to liberate all Allied Prisoners of War and civilian internees now under Japanese control and to provide for their protection, care, maintenance, and immediate transportation to places as directed.

    The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the State shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers, who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate these terms of surrender.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by ZenX View Post
    Following is a post under this topic related with this and my response to it:




    I would be interested in seeing your credible references on historical records regarding the peace-effort of Japan prior to the bombings.
    well... This article might shed a light or two I guess. I found it very informative.
    Why the Atomic Bombings Could Have Been Avoided

    On August 6, 1945, the world dramatically entered the atomic age: without either warning or precedent, an American plane dropped a single nuclear bomb on the Japanese city of Hiroshima. The explosion utterly destroyed more than four square miles of the city center. About 90,000 people were killed immediately; another 40,000 were injured, many of whom died in protracted agony from radiation sickness. Three days later, a second atomic strike on the city of Nagasaki killed some 37,000 people and injured another 43,000. Together the two bombs eventually killed an estimated 200,000 Japanese civilians.

    Between the two bombings, Soviet Russia joined the United States in war against Japan. Under strong US prodding, Stalin broke his regime's 1941 non-aggression treaty with Tokyo. On the same day that Nagasaki was destroyed, Soviet troops began pouring into Manchuria, overwhelming Japanese forces there. Although Soviet participation did little or nothing to change the military outcome of the war, Moscow benefitted enormously from joining the conflict.

    In a broadcast from Tokyo the next day, August 10, the Japanese government announced its readiness to accept the joint American-British "unconditional surrender" declaration of Potsdam, "with the understanding that the said declaration does not compromise any demand which prejudices the prerogatives of His Majesty as a Sovereign Ruler."

    A day later came the American reply, which included these words: "From the moment of surrender the authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the State shall be subject to the Supreme Commander of the Allied Powers." Finally, on August 14, the Japanese formally accepted the provisions of the Potsdam declaration, and a "cease fire" was announced. On September 2, Japanese envoys signed the instrument of surrender aboard the US battleship Missouri in Tokyo Bay.

    A Beaten Country

    Apart from the moral questions involved, were the atomic bombings militarily necessary? By any rational yardstick, they were not. Japan already had been defeated militarily by June 1945. Almost nothing was left of the once mighty Imperial Navy, and Japan's air force had been all but totally destroyed. Against only token opposition, American war planes ranged at will over the country, and US bombers rained down devastation on her cities, steadily reducing them to rubble.

    What was left of Japan's factories and workshops struggled fitfully to turn out weapons and other goods from inadequate raw materials. (Oil supplies had not been available since April.) By July about a quarter of all the houses in Japan had been destroyed, and her transportation system was near collapse. Food had become so scarce that most Japanese were subsisting on a sub-starvation diet.

    On the night of March 9-10, 1945, a wave of 300 American bombers struck Tokyo, killing 100,000 people. Dropping nearly 1,700 tons of bombs, the war planes ravaged much of the capital city, completely burning out 16 square miles and destroying a quarter of a million structures. A million residents were left homeless.

    On May 23, eleven weeks later, came the greatest air raid of the Pacific War, when 520 giant B-29 "Superfortress" bombers unleashed 4,500 tons of incendiary bombs on the heart of the already battered Japanese capital. Generating gale-force winds, the exploding incendiaries obliterated Tokyo's commercial center and railway yards, and consumed the Ginza entertainment district. Two days later, on May 25, a second strike of 502 "Superfortress" planes roared low over Tokyo, raining down some 4,000 tons of explosives. Together these two B-29 raids destroyed 56 square miles of the Japanese capital.

    Even before the Hiroshima attack, American air force General Curtis LeMay boasted that American bombers were "driving them [Japanese] back to the stone age." Henry H. ("Hap") Arnold, commanding General of the Army air forces, declared in his 1949 memoirs: "It always appeared to us, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse." This was confirmed by former Japanese prime minister Fumimaro Konoye, who said: "Fundamentally, the thing that brought about the determination to make peace was the prolonged bombing by the B-29s."

    Japan Seeks Peace

    Months before the end of the war, Japan's leaders recognized that defeat was inevitable. In April 1945 a new government headed by Kantaro Suzuki took office with the mission of ending the war. When Germany capitulated in early May, the Japanese understood that the British and Americans would now direct the full fury of their awesome military power exclusively against them.

    American officials, having long since broken Japan's secret codes, knew from intercepted messages that the country's leaders were seeking to end the war on terms as favorable as possible. Details of these efforts were known from decoded secret communications between the Foreign Ministry in Tokyo and Japanese diplomats abroad.

    In his 1965 study, Atomic Diplomacy: Hiroshima and Potsdam (pp. 107, 108), historian Gar Alperovitz writes:

    Although Japanese peace feelers had been sent out as early as September 1944 (and [China's] Chiang Kai-shek had been approached regarding surrender possibilities in December 1944), the real effort to end the war began in the spring of 1945. This effort stressed the role of the Soviet Union ...

    In mid-April [1945] the [US] Joint Intelligence Committee reported that Japanese leaders were looking for a way to modify the surrender terms to end the war. The State Department was convinced the Emperor was actively seeking a way to stop the fighting.

    A Secret Memorandum

    It was only after the war that the American public learned about Japan's efforts to bring the conflict to an end. Chicago Tribune reporter Walter Trohan, for example, was obliged by wartime censorship to withhold for seven months one of the most important stories of the war.

    In an article that finally appeared August 19, 1945, on the front pages of the Chicago Tribune and the Washington Times-Herald, Trohan revealed that on January 20, 1945, two days prior to his departure for the Yalta meeting with Stalin and Churchill, President Roosevelt received a 40-page memorandum from General Douglas MacArthur outlining five separate surrender overtures from high-level Japanese officials. (The complete text of Trohan's article is in the Winter 1985-86 Journal, pp. 508-512.)

    This memo showed that the Japanese were offering surrender terms virtually identical to the ones ultimately accepted by the Americans at the formal surrender ceremony on September 2 -- that is, complete surrender of everything but the person of the Emperor. Specifically, the terms of these peace overtures included:

    Complete surrender of all Japanese forces and arms, at home, on island possessions, and in occupied countries.
    Occupation of Japan and its possessions by Allied troops under American direction.
    Japanese relinquishment of all territory seized during the war, as well as Manchuria, Korea and Taiwan.
    Regulation of Japanese industry to halt production of any weapons and other tools of war.
    Release of all prisoners of war and internees.
    Surrender of designated war criminals.
    Is this memorandum authentic? It was supposedly leaked to Trohan by Admiral William D. Leahy, presidential Chief of Staff. (See: M. Rothbard in A. Goddard, ed., Harry Elmer Barnes: Learned Crusader [1968], pp. 327f.) Historian Harry Elmer Barnes has related (in "Hiroshima: Assault on a Beaten Foe," National Review, May 10, 1958):

    The authenticity of the Trohan article was never challenged by the White House or the State Department, and for very good reason. After General MacArthur returned from Korea in 1951, his neighbor in the Waldorf Towers, former President Herbert Hoover, took the Trohan article to General MacArthur and the latter confirmed its accuracy in every detail and without qualification.

    Peace Overtures

    In April and May 1945, Japan made three attempts through neutral Sweden and Portugal to bring the war to a peaceful end. On April 7, acting Foreign Minister Mamoru Shigemitsu met with Swedish ambassador Widon Bagge in Tokyo, asking him "to ascertain what peace terms the United States and Britain had in mind." But he emphasized that unconditional surrender was unacceptable, and that "the Emperor must not be touched." Bagge relayed the message to the United States, but Secretary of State Stettinius told the US Ambassador in Sweden to "show no interest or take any initiative in pursuit of the matter." Similar Japanese peace signals through Portugal, on May 7, and again through Sweden, on the 10th, proved similarly fruitless.

    By mid-June, six members of Japan's Supreme War Council had secretly charged Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo with the task of approaching Soviet Russia's leaders "with a view to terminating the war if possible by September." On June 22 the Emperor called a meeting of the Supreme War Council, which included the Prime Minister, the Foreign Minister, and the leading military figures. "We have heard enough of this determination of yours to fight to the last soldiers," said Emperor Hirohito. "We wish that you, leaders of Japan, will strive now to study the ways and the means to conclude the war. In doing so, try not to be bound by the decisions you have made in the past."

    By early July the US had intercepted messages from Togo to the Japanese ambassador in Moscow, Naotake Sato, showing that the Emperor himself was taking a personal hand in the peace effort, and had directed that the Soviet Union be asked to help end the war. US officials also knew that the key obstacle to ending the war was American insistence on "unconditional surrender," a demand that precluded any negotiations. The Japanese were willing to accept nearly everything, except turning over their semi-divine Emperor. Heir of a 2,600-year-old dynasty, Hirohito was regarded by his people as a "living god" who personified the nation. (Until the August 15 radio broadcast of his surrender announcement, the Japanese people had never heard his voice.) Japanese particularly feared that the Americans would humiliate the Emperor, and even execute him as a war criminal.

    On July 12, Hirohito summoned Fumimaro Konoye, who had served as prime minister in 1940-41. Explaining that "it will be necessary to terminate the war without delay," the Emperor said that he wished Konoye to secure peace with the Americans and British through the Soviets. As Prince Konoye later recalled, the Emperor instructed him "to secure peace at any price, notwithstanding its severity."

    The next day, July 13, Foreign Minister Shigenori Togo wired ambassador Naotake Sato in Moscow: "See [Soviet foreign minister] Molotov before his departure for Potsdam ... Convey His Majesty's strong desire to secure a termination of the war ... Unconditional surrender is the only obstacle to peace ..."

    On July 17, another intercepted Japanese message revealed that although Japan's leaders felt that the unconditional surrender formula involved an unacceptable dishonor, they were convinced that "the demands of the times" made Soviet mediation to terminate the war absolutely essential. Further diplomatic messages indicated that the only condition asked by the Japanese was preservation of "our form of government." The only "difficult point," a July 25 message disclosed, "is the ... formality of unconditional surrender."

    Summarizing the messages between Togo and Sato, US naval intelligence said that Japan's leaders, "though still balking at the term unconditional surrender," recognized that the war was lost, and had reached the point where they have "no objection to the restoration of peace on the basis of the [1941] Atlantic Charter." These messages, said Assistant Secretary of the Navy Lewis Strauss, "indeed stipulated only that the integrity of the Japanese Royal Family be preserved."

    Navy Secretary James Forrestal termed the intercepted messages "real evidence of a Japanese desire to get out of the war." "With the interception of these messages," notes historian Alperovitz (p. 177), "there could no longer be any real doubt as to the Japanese intentions; the maneuvers were overt and explicit and, most of all, official acts. Koichi Kido, Japan's Lord Privy Seal and a close advisor to the Emperor, later affirmed: "Our decision to seek a way out of this war, was made in early June before any atomic bomb had been dropped and Russia had not entered the war. It was already our decision."

    In spite of this, on July 26 the leaders of the United States and Britain issued the Potsdam declaration, which included this grim ultimatum: "We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces and to provide proper and adequate assurance of good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction."

    Commenting on this draconian either-or proclamation, British historian J.F.C. Fuller wrote: "Not a word was said about the Emperor, because it would be unacceptable to the propaganda-fed American masses." (A Military History of the Western World [1987], p. 675.)

    America's leaders understood Japan's desperate position: the Japanese were willing to end the war on any terms, as long as the Emperor was not molested. If the US leadership had not insisted on unconditional surrender -- that is, if they had made clear a willingness to permit the Emperor to remain in place -- the Japanese very likely would have surrendered immediately, thus saving many thousands of lives.

    The sad irony is that, as it actually turned out, the American leaders decided anyway to retain the Emperor as a symbol of authority and continuity. They realized, correctly, that Hirohito was useful as a figurehead prop for their own occupation authority in postwar Japan.

    Justifications

    President Truman steadfastly defended his use of the atomic bomb, claiming that it "saved millions of lives" by bringing the war to a quick end. Justifying his decision, he went so far as to declare: "The world will note that the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, a military base. That was because we wished in this first attack to avoid, insofar as possible, the killing of civilians."

    This was a preposterous statement. In fact, almost all of the victims were civilians, and the United States Strategic Bombing Survey (issued in 1946) stated in its official report: "Hiroshima and Nagasaki were chosen as targets because of their concentration of activities and population."

    If the atomic bomb was dropped to impress the Japanese leaders with the immense destructive power of a new weapon, this could have been accomplished by deploying it on an isolated military base. It was not necessary to destroy a large city. And whatever the justification for the Hiroshima blast, it is much more difficult to defend the second bombing of Nagasaki.

    All the same, most Americans accepted, and continue to accept, the official justifications for the bombings. Accustomed to crude propagandistic portrayals of the "Japs" as virtually subhuman beasts, most Americans in 1945 heartily welcomed any new weapon that would wipe out more of the detested Asians, and help avenge the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor. For the young Americans who were fighting the Japanese in bitter combat, the attitude was "Thank God for the atom bomb." Almost to a man, they were grateful for a weapon whose deployment seemed to end the war and thus allow them to return home.

    After the July 1943 firestorm destruction of Hamburg, the mid-February 1945 holocaust of Dresden, and the fire-bombings of Tokyo and other Japanese cities, America's leaders -- as US Army General Leslie Groves later commented -- "were generally inured to the mass killing of civilians." For President Harry Truman, the killing of tens of thousands of Japanese civilians was simply not a consideration in his decision to use the atom bomb.

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