Badges/Emblems - they have to come back

[Flurryfang]

Badges were removed because they provided alternatives to raiding and will not come back for same reason.

(And Legion still has no alternatives to raiding)

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If you remove badges from bc/wrath/cata/mop it will look like wod

Dude... There were no badges in Cata and MoP. Also, what is your point?

[Vark]

The real issue is the design where only a tiny piece of the content is "meaningful" (the current patch's raid instance). Think back to how TBC was designed: No matter when in the xpac you were playing, after you hit 70 the heroic dungeons were "meaningful". After gearing up in the heroics, Kara was "meaningful" because that's where you got your next gear upgrades. After Kara, ZA was "meaningful", or you went to 25-man raiding. The fact that some other players (or even your own other character) were killing Illidan didn't magically make Kara obsolete for a character that hadn't cleared it yet.

We don't need "catch-up" mechanics, badges or otherwise. We need a design like TBC where you don't need to catch up to anything because all the content remain relevant the whole xpac.

You're right, people were still running Gruul for DST, SSC for Tsunami trinket, TK for neck/mount, Kara for fun, ZA for mount and for fun, heroics for fun and all of these for BADGES. The moment you bought tank chest for 150 Badges - priceless. Keep in mind that with t6 gear Karazhan wasn't cake-walk and people still liked to do that.

[mysticx]

The split in answers is why the game is in such dire shape. Those who don't want them want instant gratification... "don't make me actually PLAY and EARN my rewards".

Blizzard continues to pander to them, believing there are more of them than actual lovers of the MMO genre. But the problem is, those instant gratification seekers are fickle and will move on to the next game that tickles their A.D.D. burdened fancy.

There _are_ way more of "them" than "lovers of the MMO"-genre (and considering how MMO subs in general are going, the gap is widening even more), and indeed, if games make like the forum-hero raiders and give players an ultimatum of "get good or get out", they'll do just that and leave, and before you say "Good riddance then!", WoW can't take another big sub-loss just so midcore raiders can feel better about themselves for being good at a video game.

[Maudib]

There _are_ way more of "them" than "lovers of the MMO"-genre (and considering how MMO subs in general are going, the gap is widening even more), and indeed, if games make like the forum-hero raiders and give players an ultimatum of "get good or get out", they'll do just that and leave, and before you say "Good riddance then!", WoW can't take another big sub-loss just so midcore raiders can feel better about themselves for being good at a video game.

WoW took the big sub loss BECAUSE they are migrating further and further from what made the game great... the spike to 10 million sub proves that people aren;t tired of the genre.. they are hoping for a return to the way it was.

Yes... we can afford to lose the short term player if it means keeping the millions that want their MMO back.

[PrairieChicken]

Dude... There were no badges in Cata and MoP. Also, what is your point?

JP/VP was badges with different names.

[Flurryfang]

JP/VP was badges with different names.

Well congrats, it is already in the game. Also, many people could not even use valor gear in MoP and Cata. If you are just a little up to date with raiding, then valor is rarely used for any upgrades, and is just used for money. Also, valor atm, and before, was only in the game to make you play parts of the game you did not like. Its a shitty way to "lead" you into a part of the game, which you dislike, just so you can upgrade your character. Rather have they made some content which i enjoy instead of putting in this currency which is pretty much extra money.

[PrairieChicken]

Well congrats, it is already in the game. Also, many people could not even use valor gear in MoP and Cata. If you are just a little up to date with raiding, then valor is rarely used for any upgrades, and is just used for money. Also, valor atm, and before, was only in the game to make you play parts of the game you did not like. Its a shitty way to "lead" you into a part of the game, which you dislike, just so you can upgrade your character. Rather have they made some content which i enjoy instead of putting in this currency which is pretty much extra money.

You obviously never played cata/mop

[Flurryfang]

You obviously never played cata/mop

I did. Catas currency gear was at the same lvl as the first bosses in that tier. It was outdated within weeks. When DS came out, the gear was completly useless because nearly all guilds killed enough bosses to get gear within 2-3 weeks.... So yeah... Cata valor was a pretty bad system for most players, since it had neither tier or many BiS.

MoP was gear upgrade....... So amazing O.o

The only reason badges worked in TBC was because alot of raiding gear was tough to get. And in WotLK only the frost badges worked fully.... Why i can't remember.

[PrairieChicken]

I did. Catas currency gear was at the same lvl as the first bosses in that tier. It was outdated within weeks. When DS came out, the gear was completly useless because nearly all guilds killed enough bosses to get gear within 2-3 weeks.... So yeah... Cata valor was a pretty bad system for most players, since it had neither tier or many BiS.

MoP was gear upgrade....... So amazing O.o

The only reason badges worked in TBC was because alot of raiding gear was tough to get. And in WotLK only the frost badges worked fully.... Why i can't remember.

lol

hahahahaha

[kary]

Another thinly veiled "I need high end gear from grinding" thread.
MMO-champ, never change

[Flurryfang]

lol

hahahahaha

Nice having a conversation with you too mr Chicken Also, nice comeback, great argument, such use of words.

[Glorious Leader]

Nice having a conversation with you too mr Chicken Also, nice comeback, great argument, such use of words.

Most of what you said was either utterly wrong (cata did have tier on the vendor at one point ) or only narrowly applicable I. E to the raiding community.

[Glorious Leader]

Did it ever had current tier, however? I simply don't remember the things how they were very good, but from what I can recollect:

- I could buy 2xFL tier with JP during DS
- I could buy pretty good (almost Normal DS?) gear with VP, no tier
- I could get DS tier in LFR
- I was able to get into DS Normal pugs with JP/VP/LFR gear, but my DPS was pretty bad
- I vaguely remember some rings or trinkets being exclusive to Normal or Heroic though, and some were part of my BiS set

I remember playing alts a bit more because of that gear, but at the time, my feelings were neutral towards it, just like I was neutral towards badge gear during Burning Crusade era. I was not one to be "insulted" by having to do LFR even with my main, but I felt its introduction was against everything I thought WoW stood for.

I always considered entering instances a reward in itself. Obtaining the key even for something as small as Kara felt pretty epic. "Now, I can finally RAID!!!".

To make raids open to anyone with a simple button press was pretty damn stupid. To also shower gear on those pressing that button was incredibly worse.

Luckily, they had the guts to fix this in WoD. I hope they stick to their convictions and keep mostly the same structure for Legion.

It had current tier and no it was not a fix. It was a disaster and it clearly marked when the devs decided to say fuck it to any alternatives raid or die.

[anaxie]

Currently, we gear our chars like this:
- ding 100
- tanaan/mythic dungeons
- heroics for legendary chain
- tanaan/mythic dungeons
- LFR Highmaul for ring
- tanaan/mythic dungeons
- LFR BRF for ring
- tanaan/mythic dungeons
- (eventualy) LFR HFC for ring
- tanaan/mythic dungeons
- HFC norm with pug (you have to lucky to get good group)
- HFC hc with pug (lucky again)
- weekly archi / mythic dungeons / LFRs / bonus events till 795 ring

You may say "ask guild for help". Well, everyone is burnt out of HFC cause of these sick 4 difficulties (or 3). I don't blame them.
Neither of these steps to gear up for mythic is interesting, immersing or funny. Without ring, without tiers, without trinkets (especialy class trinkets for some classes) and without at least hfc heroic gear you are just meaningless face in the crowd.

We need other ways to gear up. The sooner you have enough gear to do something meaningful (good dps, good hps, being tough tank) the sooner fun begins. Emblems/Badges and their gear were great. It was perfect catch-up mechanic. We need them back!

I'm aware that their comeback alone won't solve problem of gearing. The other reason is iLvl amplitude which is really too damn high.

Fucking Valor gear is irrelevant get over it

Enjoy Tiered Challenge modes. Enjoy gear on par with Raiders.

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It had current tier and no it was not a fix. It was a disaster and it clearly marked when the devs decided to say fuck it to any alternatives raid or die.

Still bitching about WoW and the exact same shit as 2 years ago eh Glorious?

Don't dissappoint me 2 years from now at the end of Legion. I need to see you here bitching while you play WoW about how Blizzard didn't give you enough Gerber

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Oh lord, strawman. I'd like to earn gear, not give it to me for free. If I chose to spend a lot time for farming badges - it's my decision. I did HFC so many times and trying to go through normal, then hc to get gear is so boring and timewasting.


Yeah, it's better to do 99999 times the same raid on 10 alts on 3-4 difficulties to get the same gear the same way. Yay!


Of course I want ;p many people feel the same so that's why they have to come back. No one forces you to farm them, feel free to run 4 difficulties for shiny epics, prepare A LOT of coffee.

I rolled around in the mud for TWO DAYS.

Am I a doctor yet?

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The real issue is the design where only a tiny piece of the content is "meaningful" (the current patch's raid instance). Think back to how TBC was designed: No matter when in the xpac you were playing, after you hit 70 the heroic dungeons were "meaningful". After gearing up in the heroics, Kara was "meaningful" because that's where you got your next gear upgrades. After Kara, ZA was "meaningful", or you went to 25-man raiding. The fact that some other players (or even your own other character) were killing Illidan didn't magically make Kara obsolete for a character that hadn't cleared it yet.

We don't need "catch-up" mechanics, badges or otherwise. We need a design like TBC where you don't need to catch up to anything because all the content remain relevant the whole xpac.

Won't happen. Once they gave the plebs gear the Theme park turned into the playpen. Now if you remove catch up gear / aka pleb alternative gear upgrades.

They will BIIIIITCH and they willl MOOOOOOAN and without that. How on earth will I get my jollies insulting them while they violate me with their mindfuck thought process.

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You're right, people were still running Gruul for DST, SSC for Tsunami trinket, TK for neck/mount, Kara for fun, ZA for mount and for fun, heroics for fun and all of these for BADGES. The moment you bought tank chest for 150 Badges - priceless. Keep in mind that with t6 gear Karazhan wasn't cake-walk and people still liked to do that.

No ZA also had gear.

QUITE GOOD gear zerker/fetish/ect.

Also they COULD Catch up gear once last seasons PVP gear started doing the Honor thing. But it was by no means trivial and over halfway into the expansion.

I think back then to get a pair of boots you get get a WHOLE set now for same effort. And it had to have specific BG Badges with the honor.

Same concept for 5s too. LOTS of Heroics. More then people would feel like doing now without crying. for badge gear / Nethers / ect.
Don't do your role in those Heroics. PROBABLY GOING to wipe. ALOT.
Don't have mage food in Black Morass. You're Gonna have a bad time

Also you had to OMG be social and know people. WHo could cut what gem. Who could make what crafted item. Did they have the mats? did they have the BoP Nethers? Do I have gold? If I'm nice to these raid guys and ask them about stuff can I buy the crafted stuff I need that is BoP and only comes from there? <Nether Vortexs>

TBC was good for reasons that you had to know what the fuck was going on and you had to put yourself out there with people. Or you would never accomplish a fucking thing.

I have very few happy moments in WoW that isn't ball busting related EX: HLK/Rag Falling over

But just accomplishing a quest in TBC felt like I had done something on an adventure VS a chore checklist questing in BRAND NEW zones feels like now for the first time. Each step precise aware of pats. Regen my strength and pull before pat comes. Duck them into this corner. Keep moving can get caught by respawns.

CRAFTING items was EARNED Powerful items through painstaking effort. Figured Deep thunder would be furthest my weapon would go. I can't get these. I'm not in that guild and their BoP. OMG their gonna let me buy? I have to get mats. KILL ELEMENTAL KILL ELEMENTAL KILL ELEMENTAL MINE SMELT MINE SMELT

I don't think for a single thing I crafted i bought. I went and got it myself. You had to. Gold wasn't bleeding out of the walls. Dallies was GOOD sustainable income.

[ZenX]

I did. Catas currency gear was at the same lvl as the first bosses in that tier. It was outdated within weeks. When DS came out, the gear was completly useless because nearly all guilds killed enough bosses to get gear within 2-3 weeks.... So yeah... Cata valor was a pretty bad system for most players, since it had neither tier or many BiS.

MoP was gear upgrade....... So amazing O.o

The only reason badges worked in TBC was because alot of raiding gear was tough to get. And in WotLK only the frost badges worked fully.... Why i can't remember.

Mate, from your comment it is obvious you had neither an idea nor experience with Cataclysm gearing.

Until MoP pre-patch the game had the Justice and Valor vendors with Justice being used initially for dungeon-level gear and Valor for the normal raid-level gear (in turn tier-pieces for t11). When 4.2 released bringing Firelands and t12, the Valor-gear of t11 were purchasable with Justice points. When 4.3 released bringing Dragon Soul and t13, the Valor-gear of t12 were purchasable with Justice points. However, Blizzard did indeed remove the tier-piece acquisition with Valor in 4.3 as they had released LFR which provided the associated tier-pieces and important trinkets only a bit underpowered in stats.

None of that exists in WoD and the current LFR with no tier-pieces and crappy the apexis that you need to grind mindlessly as if playing a Korean MMO supposedly is the new "Justice Points/Emlems/Badges", panning out crappy gear.

The problem is the gear-progression for progressing through content had its hiccups with Vanilla being the type in which Blizzard was shitting their pants with Shaman equipment dropping for the Alliance and Paladin equipment dropping for the Horde (Which they had rectified beginning in TBC with the tier-token system).
However, with this current gear-system that arrived with WoD, Blizzard shit everyone's pants.

Fucking Valor gear is irrelevant get over it

Enjoy Tiered Challenge modes. Enjoy gear on par with Raiders.

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Still bitching about WoW and the exact same shit as 2 years ago eh Glorious?

Don't dissappoint me 2 years from now at the end of Legion. I need to see you here bitching while you play WoW about how Blizzard didn't give you enough Gerber

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I rolled around in the mud for TWO DAYS.

Am I a doctor yet?

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Won't happen. Once they gave the plebs gear the Theme park turned into the playpen. Now if you remove catch up gear / aka pleb alternative gear upgrades.

They will BIIIIITCH and they willl MOOOOOOAN and without that. How on earth will I get my jollies insulting them while they violate me with their mindfuck thought process.

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No ZA also had gear.

QUITE GOOD gear zerker/fetish/ect.

Also they COULD Catch up gear once last seasons PVP gear started doing the Honor thing. But it was by no means trivial and over halfway into the expansion.

I think back then to get a pair of boots you get get a WHOLE set now for same effort. And it had to have specific BG Badges with the honor.

Same concept for 5s too. LOTS of Heroics. More then people would feel like doing now without crying. for badge gear / Nethers / ect.
Don't do your role in those Heroics. PROBABLY GOING to wipe. ALOT.
Don't have mage food in Black Morass. You're Gonna have a bad time

Also you had to OMG be social and know people. WHo could cut what gem. Who could make what crafted item. Did they have the mats? did they have the BoP Nethers? Do I have gold? If I'm nice to these raid guys and ask them about stuff can I buy the crafted stuff I need that is BoP and only comes from there? <Nether Vortexs>

TBC was good for reasons that you had to know what the fuck was going on and you had to put yourself out there with people. Or you would never accomplish a fucking thing.

I have very few happy moments in WoW that isn't ball busting related EX: HLK/Rag Falling over

But just accomplishing a quest in TBC felt like I had done something on an adventure VS a chore checklist questing in BRAND NEW zones feels like now for the first time. Each step precise aware of pats. Regen my strength and pull before pat comes. Duck them into this corner. Keep moving can get caught by respawns.

CRAFTING items was EARNED Powerful items through painstaking effort. Figured Deep thunder would be furthest my weapon would go. I can't get these. I'm not in that guild and their BoP. OMG their gonna let me buy? I have to get mats. KILL ELEMENTAL KILL ELEMENTAL KILL ELEMENTAL MINE SMELT MINE SMELT

I don't think for a single thing I crafted i bought. I went and got it myself. You had to. Gold wasn't bleeding out of the walls. Dallies was GOOD sustainable income.

As you state with various perhaps rambling but rather accurate points, the sense of progression in any way had been diminishing in many ways (Oh the attunement objectives/questlines) but with WoD we hit rock bottom, upon reaching end-game we go from a progressive MMO into a loot-pinata bashing which mainly gives out durian candies.

My opinion (as it always has been) TBC type of attunement quests (placing the hero in a proper path) should return, perhaps it was a hassle and caused lots of drama back in 2008 when there were no Cross-realms and Group Finders with Blizzard later on trying to justify not bringing them back saying how inaccessible they were (and they were back in TBC if you were not playing with a guild). However, they are now and much needed because the whole game (if it goes on like this) will become just a grindfest with no loot.

...and I am of the opinion that outside LFR, the personal loot system is a smoldering crap which should never have made into the game as it is one of those things that justified their avoidance in fixing the gear progressing system throughout the instanced content.

[kary]

You're right, people were still running Gruul for DST, SSC for Tsunami trinket, TK for neck/mount, Kara for fun, ZA for mount and for fun, heroics for fun and all of these for BADGES. The moment you bought tank chest for 150 Badges - priceless. Keep in mind that with t6 gear Karazhan wasn't cake-walk and people still liked to do that.

You could clear kara in like an hour in T6 gear. That's pretty cakewalk. They only did Kara because the badge/effort was way better than anything else
DST being relevant the entire xpac was a mistake. You'd basically just see "LFM GRUUL, DST ON RES" from T5 onwards. Fun stuff.

I dunno, the whole idea of running irrelevant content for currency to buy higher content is just dumb to me. I didn't mind WoTLK pre vp change. You'd get the relevant currency on a daily cd or by running the relevant raid. But just spamming irrelevant 5mans till you got current tier was a bad system and I'm 100% glad it's gone.

[ZenX]

You could clear kara in like an hour in T6 gear. That's pretty cakewalk. They only did Kara because the badge/effort was way better than anything else
DST being relevant the entire xpac was a mistake. You'd basically just see "LFM GRUUL, DST ON RES" from T5 onwards. Fun stuff.

I dunno, the whole idea of running irrelevant content for currency to buy higher content is just dumb to me. I didn't mind WoTLK pre vp change. You'd get the relevant currency on a daily cd or by running the relevant raid. But just spamming irrelevant 5mans till you got current tier was a bad system and I'm 100% glad it's gone.

You only got the lower-end of the current tier (251) via Frost Emblems and needed the tokens from 25 and 25HC to progress further, it was a proper bridging mechanic.
Without the upgrades what you had were glorified purples nothing more but it at least opened you the way to progress properly into raiding.

[kary]

You only got the lower-end of the current tier (251) via Frost Emblems and needed the tokens from 25 and 25HC to progress further, it was a proper bridging mechanic.
Without the upgrades what you had were glorified purples nothing more but it at least opened you the way to progress properly into raiding.

I don't mind old tier being distributed as a catch up mechanic tbh.
But...
Look at WoD. If they were to do the same (sell the base version of the tier) it would be 670 BRF tier. (232 ToC gear equivalent). People would cry "why can't I get the 685 heroic version" firstly, secondly you'd get "why is empowered baleful 695? tier should be the same itemlevel!" as well, pretty much instantly.

You can't please the current casual crowd no matter what, tbh.

695 baleful is infinitely better than 670 old tier as a progression point.

[Flurryfang]

Most of what you said was either utterly wrong (cata did have tier on the vendor at one point ) or only narrowly applicable I. E to the raiding community.

Wups, got me there Forgot about that But well, i will alwayys aim my critique from a raiding standpoint, since it is pretty much everything the game has to offer as end-game

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Mate, from your comment it is obvious you had neither an idea nor experience with Cataclysm gearing.

Until MoP pre-patch the game had the Justice and Valor vendors with Justice being used initially for dungeon-level gear and Valor for the normal raid-level gear (in turn tier-pieces for t11). When 4.2 released bringing Firelands and t12, the Valor-gear of t11 were purchasable with Justice points. When 4.3 released bringing Dragon Soul and t13, the Valor-gear of t12 were purchasable with Justice points. However, Blizzard did indeed remove the tier-piece acquisition with Valor in 4.3 as they had released LFR which provided the associated tier-pieces and important trinkets only a bit underpowered in stats.

None of that exists in WoD and the current LFR with no tier-pieces and crappy the apexis that you need to grind mindlessly as if playing a Korean MMO supposedly is the new "Justice Points/Emlems/Badges", panning out crappy gear.

The problem is the gear-progression for progressing through content had its hiccups with Vanilla being the type in which Blizzard was shitting their pants with Shaman equipment dropping for the Alliance and Paladin equipment dropping for the Horde (Which they had rectified beginning in TBC with the tier-token system).
However, with this current gear-system that arrived with WoD, Blizzard shit everyone's pants.



As you state with various perhaps rambling but rather accurate points, the sense of progression in any way had been diminishing in many ways (Oh the attunement objectives/questlines) but with WoD we hit rock bottom, upon reaching end-game we go from a progressive MMO into a loot-pinata bashing which mainly gives out durian candies.

My opinion (as it always has been) TBC type of attunement quests (placing the hero in a proper path) should return, perhaps it was a hassle and caused lots of drama back in 2008 when there were no Cross-realms and Group Finders with Blizzard later on trying to justify not bringing them back saying how inaccessible they were (and they were back in TBC if you were not playing with a guild). However, they are now and much needed because the whole game (if it goes on like this) will become just a grindfest with no loot.

...and I am of the opinion that outside LFR, the personal loot system is a smoldering crap which should never have made into the game as it is one of those things that justified their avoidance in fixing the gear progressing system throughout the instanced content.

Yeah sorry, had a brainfart on the entire tier thing But that still does not make valor/justice points/badges a good system for gear progression. The only reason this currency system has worked a few times is because they had some dungons with ICC and DS. When they are not out, farming for justice/valor points, is a pain. It is not enjoyable yet you have to spam it just to gear up your alts. I would rather have a system where i can actually do stuff i enjoy instead of spamming LFD for 4 hours in a row.

I can't really get at why you think WoD gear progressing is so much worse then before. The LFR gives you good enough gear to do mythic dungeons, and mythic dungeon gear makes you able to do Normal/Heroic raiding. It seems to me like the gear progressing have few holes.

[anaxie]

You could clear kara in like an hour in T6 gear. That's pretty cakewalk. They only did Kara because the badge/effort was way better than anything else
DST being relevant the entire xpac was a mistake. You'd basically just see "LFM GRUUL, DST ON RES" from T5 onwards. Fun stuff.

I dunno, the whole idea of running irrelevant content for currency to buy higher content is just dumb to me. I didn't mind WoTLK pre vp change. You'd get the relevant currency on a daily cd or by running the relevant raid. But just spamming irrelevant 5mans till you got current tier was a bad system and I'm 100% glad it's gone.

You COULD CLEAR KARA. IN AN HOUR. With gear two tiers above it and best trinkets in game. /SHOCKER
I could clear Naxx 25 in under an hour in entirety a month into wrath /WHOA

Oh...

You can also clear plenty of raids in the game WHEN CURRENT in 1-2 hours depending on difficulty setting. ESPECIALLY when they are outdated tiers. Firelands sell run full clear during Dragon soul. 1 hour every time. I'd know I did all the logistics and organization for the shit.