[7.0] New Paladin Abilities and Talents

[Ulthane]

Well damn, went full history mode here. ^he's right ya know

[Deleted]

Watch out, we got a master of Seraphim, defender of DP and overall badass over here.

No really, genai you are so full of shit that I find it extremely hard to believe anything you say.

The more of Ret in Alpha I watch the more I like it. Sure, some things cry out for change but sure let's keep saying the sky is falling like every beta. There's this song by THE HEAVY - Same ol'.

Good luck on rerolling and being mediocre. Not sure what you're doing here anyway.


Yeah, I had to blow some steam from reading all this shit, next post will be constructive, I promise.

I have to disagree with that. The lack of options and the sad state of the talent tree is making Ret looking like a bad excuse to even exist as a spec. Live Ret is miles better than alpha Ret, that is the biggest difference towards past betas. Even if people didnt like things, they were still evolutions. In Legion we got a major step back.
I do like options alot, be it seraphim, empowered divine storm or divine purpose. I like that the Ret spec is a spec that is reactive and that rewards quick decision making and gives choices on wether to be more proccy or more predictable. To use nuking windowns, or more cleavy, or more maintnancy. Live Ret is an amazing spec. Its a real shame to see it go.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Watch out, we got a master of Seraphim, defender of DP and overall badass over here.

No really, genai you are so full of shit that I find it extremely hard to believe anything you say.

The more of Ret in Alpha I watch the more I like it. Sure, some things cry out for change but sure let's keep saying the sky is falling like every beta. There's this song by THE HEAVY - Same ol'.

Good luck on rerolling and being mediocre. Not sure what you're doing here anyway.


Yeah, I had to blow some steam from reading all this shit, next post will be constructive, I promise.

Because Ret is not about being mediocre, sure as sure.

[Taeldorian]

I haven't followed this new alpha build much yet, but someone tell me if I'm wrong. The build I was going for was more of the fast paced build, rather than slow. I was going to use 1.execution sentence (change it to the aoe one when aoe is needed), 2.crusader flurry (3 charges of this ability, 3.40-3.90 second recharge on each, cant remember, so uptime is easy), 3.blade of wrath, 4. Either mass judgement (for the prolonged buff) or 4(2).the might of virtue for the extra amount of holy power (will be an insane amount of generating because of crusader flurry's recharge cd being short, and blade of wrath being shorter than virtues blade), 5. Final verdict obviously.

This build is pretty fast paced and has very very little downtime, and no downtime with might of virtue. Can anyone tell me if any of these abilities changed in this build? Or if this build is still viable like it was previously? I haven't done any numbers with it due to tuning still being in effect by a large amount. This is also more of a single target build, aoe build would consist of consecration, mass judgement etc, and keep in mind I'm not taking into account for haste when talking about fast paced.

[ruiizu]

Watch out, we got a master of Seraphim, defender of DP and overall badass over here.

No really, genai you are so full of shit that I find it extremely hard to believe anything you say.

The more of Ret in Alpha I watch the more I like it. Sure, some things cry out for change but sure let's keep saying the sky is falling like every beta. There's this song by THE HEAVY - Same ol'.

Good luck on rerolling and being mediocre. Not sure what you're doing here anyway.


Yeah, I had to blow some steam from reading all this shit, next post will be constructive, I promise.

I am also a defender of Divine Purpose, because it was one of my favorite talents/traits, period. Proc free abilities are great.

Regarding Blade of Justice vs. Blade of Wrath, Blade of Justice will be superior in PvP due to lower uptime (and thus more time to "cooldown" between attacking). Despite being physical, the burst will be better, unless the crit coefficient is nerfed for it against players. If it is, Wrath will always beat it. While magical damage is nice, there's a good number of classes vulnerable to physical damage too (wrecks clothies and leather wearers).

[Deleted]

I am also a defender of Divine Purpose, because it was one of my favorite talents/traits, period. Proc free abilities are great.

Regarding Blade of Justice vs. Blade of Wrath, Blade of Justice will be superior in PvP due to lower uptime (and thus more time to "cooldown" between attacking). Despite being physical, the burst will be better, unless the crit coefficient is nerfed for it against players. If it is, Wrath will always beat it. While magical damage is nice, there's a good number of classes vulnerable to physical damage too (wrecks clothies and leather wearers).

DP was good till it was bad, I loved being able to do some crazy dmg at times, but during t17 the difference between one pull and another , was just way too high at times.

[Deleted]

DP was good till it was bad, I loved being able to do some crazy dmg at times, but during t17 the difference between one pull and another , was just way too high at times.

Thats just how it is though. Sometimes you get to do monster damage, others times you don't.

But procs are very easy to "influence" or save up for a few seconds to make your burst moment more rewarding. Of course, the odd time you are gonna get very lucky and the odd times you arent. Thats just how its balanced.

[Tyze]

Okey so I get that people are upset over some sort of talents and abilites, but how does the Ret Paladin play? Is it FUN?

Not sure if I'm gonna play Warrior or Paladin in Legion yet.

[Deleted]

I have to disagree with that. The lack of options and the sad state of the talent tree is making Ret looking like a bad excuse to even exist as a spec. Live Ret is miles better than alpha Ret, that is the biggest difference towards past betas. Even if people didnt like things, they were still evolutions. In Legion we got a major step back.
I do like options alot, be it seraphim, empowered divine storm or divine purpose. I like that the Ret spec is a spec that is reactive and that rewards quick decision making and gives choices on wether to be more proccy or more predictable. To use nuking windowns, or more cleavy, or more maintnancy. Live Ret is an amazing spec. Its a real shame to see it go.

While i like the procc heaviy style of DP and emp.DS i dislike them for balance reasons.
Because if DP would come back , the inevitable reaction to this would be a heavy nerf to TV and DS - and this is one of the reasons why Cata was such a shit show for us.
You see , and i hope my bad broken english will be enough to explain this , so bear with me.
There are several option on how our damage will be , or not be. For example.
In Cata Finisher were dealing good damage , but because of that HP generation must be limited or else the damage will be out of hand.
Yet DP fucked with this dichotomie because it brings in too big of a chance to create damage spikes that would be too strong. So in order to compensate for DP the finisher were nerfed. And this created in the end the dmg rollercoster for us in cata , were we could deal acceptable damage in one try and shit in another.
Then there is what we have currently on live. Were finisher are not that big of a deal overall and the there is a balance between the damage from the generators themself and finisher were neither are really strong but both together are ok - unfortunatly this has been mixed into our CD which made the whole system bad in itself.
Then there is what rogues have. Were finisher aren't that big of a deal damage wise and the major amount stems from the generators.And because finishers aren't that big of a deal they can be generated fastly and with that there are more options for them in regards to what to use the CP for.
And last but not least there is reverse rogue style that we are having currently in Legion. Were the generators are dealing overall fuck all damage und aren't that big of a deal but in turn the finishers are really strong. Yet HP has been to some degree limited in order to comensate for the big damage the finishers are dealing/supposed to be dealing.

Yet if DP would come back in Legion , the logical conclusion would be that the finishers are going to be nerfed in order to avoide the possibilitie of huge damage spikes in both PvE but most of all in PvP. I believe this is why we had conviction instead of DP in the first place. Because this allowes finishers to be heaviy hitter without creating the chance of making it out right OP.

In short , while DP and Emp.DS are fun , they are shit in a practicle way and will inevitably come with a cost (nerf). So i hope neither of thouse will come back because i do not look forward to once again hope for proccs or else my dmg is shit tier. A nice playstyle is one thing i would like it to be that ret has one , but please not at the cost of dmg , or else i do not see what good it is for if we have a fun playstyle but are nowhere really usefull.

[Morally Grey Storm]

Okey so I get that people are upset over some sort of talents and abilites, but how does the Ret Paladin play? Is it FUN?

Not sure if I'm gonna play Warrior or Paladin in Legion yet.

like shit.
no mobility, no gap closing, no control over battlefield, no sustained, no resource generation if out of 12 yard range.
add to that no selfhealing besides 1 hardcasted spell and no selfdefense besides 5 min cd same old bubble and a 2 min pathetic absorb.
but hey, we can juggle buffs while juggling buffs while slaying scripted dragons!
or we can even pick a talent so our juggled buffs are strongar!
Or we can oneshot outworld mobs(not really) with a 5 minute cd if we are near dead ourselves!

But what do I know, Im just regular retlol wanting to be the bestest and strongarest.

[Deleted]

Can anyone tell me if any of these abilities changed in this build? Or if this build is still viable like it was previously? I haven't done any numbers with it due to tuning still being in effect by a large amount. This is also more of a single target build, aoe build would consist of consecration, mass judgement etc, and keep in mind I'm not taking into account for haste when talking about fast paced.

Mate, these talents are already gone a long time...I suggest you look over the talent tree as is now: http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...in/retribution

If you want to go fast paced you'll inevitably do less dps, cuz Blizzard commands thee tho be slow as a fat mall cop.

Okey so I get that people are upset over some sort of talents and abilites, but how does the Ret Paladin play? Is it FUN?
Not sure if I'm gonna play Warrior or Paladin in Legion yet.

Well... as Avengelyne played the new build a couple hours he just mentioned Ret is bad, feels bad, plays bad - he has more fun playing live Ret. And to quote Lobster on the official alpha board "Is Ret a DPS spec or a utility spec?"

Short answer: If you like unreliable big numbers and slowpaced gameplay, sure it's fun.

Make your own opinion out of it.

- - - edit - - -

Regarding the feeling in PvP, you can read Reghame's posts if you want to know how Ret feels in BGs right now on the alpha, but I advise you caution: for the most part his opinions stem from a bugged feature regarding Divine Tempest which he nonchalantly enjoys. You can think for yourself if this will last throughout Legion - or even until the start of the exp.

No hard feelings Reg

[Aeluron Lightsong]

I am also a defender of Divine Purpose, because it was one of my favorite talents/traits, period. Proc free abilities are great.

Regarding Blade of Justice vs. Blade of Wrath, Blade of Justice will be superior in PvP due to lower uptime (and thus more time to "cooldown" between attacking). Despite being physical, the burst will be better, unless the crit coefficient is nerfed for it against players. If it is, Wrath will always beat it. While magical damage is nice, there's a good number of classes vulnerable to physical damage too (wrecks clothies and leather wearers).

I'll be sticking to Blade of Justice honestly. Don't care for the other choices.

[Tyze]

Short answer: If you like unreliable big numbers and slowpaced gameplay, sure it's fun.

But Zeal offers faster pace?

[Deleted]

But Zeal offers faster pace?

Zeal is the AE choice of the CS- Tier for it's cleave damage, but on singletarget the effect of Fires of Justice is far too important for your HoPo generation. For now it looks the way that the slowpaced talents are best in regards of dps on ST, with the other talents being niche and only swapped out w/e necessary - like i.e. for AE.

I'm really starting to like Fury atm...reminds me a bit on WoD Ret with the improved WW...

[Teleros]

Something else I've been noticing - I wish Blizz would give Ret a bit more unique stuff compared to Holy & Prot.

Compare:

Protector of the Ashen Blade: Reduces the cooldown of Blessing of Protection by 10/20/30 secs.
Blessings of the Silver Hand: Reduces the cooldown of BoP, BoSac, BoF by 5/10/15%.

The latter works out as a 45sec CD reduction on BoP, to say nothing of the buffs to the other two. Holy also gets 2 charges to Blessings in PvP.

Can't really see Ret being brought much for utility when set against that, plus auras .

Edit: I've also noticed Holy lost its teleport Beacon, and has to talent into Divine Steed. Still, with Blessings of the Silver Hand and the ability to cleanse magic debuffs, they're still more mobile that Ret :P .

[Reghame]

Mate, these talents are already gone a long time...I suggest you look over the talent tree as is now: http://legion.wowhead.com/talent-cal...in/retribution

If you want to go fast paced you'll inevitably do less dps, cuz Blizzard commands thee tho be slow as a fat mall cop.
Well... as Avengelyne played the new build a couple hours he just mentioned Ret is bad, feels bad, plays bad - he has more fun playing live Ret. And to quote Lobster on the official alpha board "Is Ret a DPS spec or a utility spec?"

Short answer: If you like unreliable big numbers and slowpaced gameplay, sure it's fun.

Make your own opinion out of it.

- - - edit - - -

Regarding the feeling in PvP, you can read Reghame's posts if you want to know how Ret feels in BGs right now on the alpha, but I advise you caution: for the most part his opinions stem from a bugged feature regarding Divine Tempest which he nonchalantly enjoys. You can think for yourself if this will last throughout Legion - or even until the start of the exp.

No hard feelings Reg

non taken, but lets be honest here. I would much rather enjoy Bgs playing with a spec that has bugs like ours than have to face or even play a spec like havoc hunters who bypass all armor all the time, have the ability to move 40 yards with a double jump glide, gain 100% leech during their CD, and do 70% of someones hp if not interrupted from eye beam.
If bugs are overtunned specs are your problem with alpha, ret's bugs you can count on a single hand are the least of your worries. And even with some of these specs and classes having some overbearing ludicrous things going for them ret is still very strong on current build so im not entirely sure that ret needs much oofm, just more mechanical fixes.

One thing to address though is that judgment is getting another big overhaul soon, more likely to reduce the ability to keep it up all the time ( this means changes to it's cooldown possibly, and a removal of mass judgment possibly)

If things continue to change with judgment i would be more inclined to say stop messing with it because it does not seem to be working out.

- - - Updated - - -

Zeal is the AE choice of the CS- Tier for it's cleave damage, but on singletarget the effect of Fires of Justice is far too important for your HoPo generation. For now it looks the way that the slowpaced talents are best in regards of dps on ST, with the other talents being niche and only swapped out w/e necessary - like i.e. for AE.

I'm really starting to like Fury atm...reminds me a bit on WoD Ret with the improved WW...

just going to mention that zeal's cleave range is that of 4 yards.......... i wont be picking this thing up for AOE ATM thats for sure.

[Deleted]

One thing to address though is that judgment is getting another big overhaul soon, more likely to reduce the ability to keep it up all the time ( this means changes to it's cooldown possibly, and a removal of mass judgment possibly)

You mean changes so that Blessings of Judgment will - as Blizzard wants it to be that badly - the absolute best pick in this row? Yah I already knew that would happen, it's not that I know how the Devs "tick" in regards to Ret noooooo I don't...

Let's face it - the Ashbringer shall be known throughout Legion as the Buffbringer, for Blizz commands thee to doeth so. And Go- er, I mean Blizz, looking on the buffs, saw that it was good (in their opinion). And Blizz made a division between DPS and support DPS, naming the DPS, all other specs, and the support DPS, Retribution. ~ Genesis 1.4-1.5 of the Blizzard Bible.

Sorry, couldn't resist the urge. The years of passionate believe in Go- er, I mean Blizz, made me a bit cynical.

[Deleted]

You mean changes so that Blessings of Judgment will - as Blizzard wants it to be that badly - the absolute best pick in this row? Yah I already knew that would happen, it's not that I know how the Devs "tick" in regards to Ret noooooo I don't...

Let's face it - the Ashbringer shall be known throughout Legion as the Buffbringer, for Blizz commands thee to doeth so. And Go- er, I mean Blizz, looking on the buffs, saw that it was good (in their opinion). And Blizz made a division between DPS and support DPS, naming the DPS, all other specs, and the support DPS, Retribution. ~ Genesis 1.4-1.5 of the Blizzard Bible.

Sorry, couldn't resist the urge. The years of passionate believe in Go- er, I mean Blizz, made me a bit cynical.

All things aside.
Even if we take it as fact that we are the bringers of buffs. Even if this is the case this means ... little.
Because at the end of the day , if we are a utility specc - shouldn't we then have actuall utility? I mean what do we actually have?
- BoP: Which is virtually never used in PvE , especially if we consider in that blizz no longer developes fights like Horridon where the tank debuff can be removed with BoP and if a dps/healer is attacked by a add then there is something going wrong in the raid anyway. So this blessing is completly useless in PvE.
In PvP this is part of our own damn defense - which is pretty weak to beginn with and in fact even weaker than it is on live - and even if we are using it as support for our team mates. It merely absorbs meele hits which is at this point only damage from hunters , warriors and outlaw rogues - every other class and specc in the game has by now a shitload of magic damage.

-BoF. With freedom it's the same with BoP. When was the last time this buff has actually been used in PvE? In PvP we will need this ourself anyway so we can no longer count freedom as actuall utility.

-BoM: this going to be the only real question here. Will the use of BoM compensate our lower base damage? Keep in mind we are talking about ret here , a specc that has never been one of the stronger ones and i doubt that this is going to change in Legion. And if our damage is going to be even lower - or because of this lower - then the question still remains: Will this be actually even a gain for the raid?

-BoK: At the end of the day this buff is and remains useless for the most time. For the simple reason because it reduces our dps and absorbs for shit and this only on one single player. So if anything at all this will only be used on tanks. And even if it is on tanks then this thing will still not be doing much because tanks mitigate or absorb only damage spikes - the overall damage is irrelevant for the most part.

-BoW: The healer mana - for a single healer - is not that big of a deal - even if it would actually restore mana rather good - or when was actually the last time in your raids when healer mana was a important factor in the raid?

And thats just about it. So our "utility" so incrediably insignificant that this is not funny and no good raid ever will take a ret with them because of this joke of a utility. And if our base damage is going to be somewhat shit and not en pare with other dps speccs - then what the fuck is ret supposed to be with shit damage and no actuall utility? What then is our purpose exept in being a useless joke?

I said it numerouse times and i will say it again. What is rets theme? What is ret supposed to be? Nothing makes sense at all everything that blizz has done and said so far is incridebly contradictory with everything they have been saying before.

[Deleted]

All things aside.
Even if we take it as fact that we are the bringers of buffs. Even if this is the case this means ... little.
Because at the end of the day , if we are a utility specc - shouldn't we then have actuall utility? I mean what do we actually have?
- BoP: Which is virtually never used in PvE , especially if we consider in that blizz no longer developes fights like Horridon where the tank debuff can be removed with BoP and if a dps/healer is attacked by a add then there is something going wrong in the raid anyway. So this blessing is completly useless in PvE.
In PvP this is part of our own damn defense - which is pretty weak to beginn with and in fact even weaker than it is on live - and even if we are using it as support for our team mates. It merely absorbs meele hits which is at this point only damage from hunters , warriors and outlaw rogues - every other class and specc in the game has by now a shitload of magic damage.

-BoF. With freedom it's the same with BoP. When was the last time this buff has actually been used in PvE? In PvP we will need this ourself anyway so we can no longer count freedom as actuall utility.

-BoM: this going to be the only real question here. Will the use of BoM compensate our lower base damage? Keep in mind we are talking about ret here , a specc that has never been one of the stronger ones and i doubt that this is going to change in Legion. And if our damage is going to be even lower - or because of this lower - then the question still remains: Will this be actually even a gain for the raid?

-BoK: At the end of the day this buff is and remains useless for the most time. For the simple reason because it reduces our dps and absorbs for shit and this only on one single player. So if anything at all this will only be used on tanks. And even if it is on tanks then this thing will still not be doing much because tanks mitigate or absorb only damage spikes - the overall damage is irrelevant for the most part.

-BoW: The healer mana - for a single healer - is not that big of a deal - even if it would actually restore mana rather good - or when was actually the last time in your raids when healer mana was a important factor in the raid?

And thats just about it. So our "utility" so incrediably insignificant that this is not funny and no good raid ever will take a ret with them because of this joke of a utility. And if our base damage is going to be somewhat shit and not en pare with other dps speccs - then what the fuck is ret supposed to be with shit damage and no actuall utility? What then is our purpose exept in being a useless joke?

I said it numerouse times and i will say it again. What is rets theme? What is ret supposed to be? Nothing makes sense at all everything that blizz has done and said so far is incridebly contradictory with everything they have been saying before.

We are not a fucking utility spec, we are a dps spec and blizz needs to get it into their heads , that we are supposed to do damage and not waste our gcds on crap. This is WoW not god damn HotS , there are only 3 kinds of specs - tank/healer/dps , we are god damn dps.

[Eapoe]

We are not a fucking utility spec, we are a dps spec and blizz needs to get it into their heads , that we are supposed to do damage and not waste our gcds on crap. This is WoW not god damn HotS , there are only 3 kinds of specs - tank/healer/dps , we are god damn dps.

But you are a dps spec. The class fantasy Blizz mentions is dealing damage to enemies while being able to buff and heal their comrades. I've stated multiple times that I do not believe BoM is going to nerf you in any way, it's just an added benefit of group play (there were statements about tuning the buff around it, not tuning the paladin around the buff). The way BoM also plays, outside of a few key moments in a raid encounter you will probably not juggle it as much as you think. I also don't think the damage difference would be so huge that some players might just throw it on one person the whole fight.
As for the PvP, current paladin buffs can be dispelled or stolen already on live, not much changing there. Will have to see how it works though in arena with the other 2 buffs being tossed around.