Men should have the right to ‘abort’ responsibility, Swedish political group says

[Noradin]

I'm surprised artificial insemination hasn't been brought up more in this thread.

They will still sue for child support in many countries if they can identify him.

[Hraklea]

No, by doing so would grant freedom from the responsibility. That is the whole point of this thread.

"No" what? I wrote two paragraphs, you need to be more specific.

[Anastacy]

Women always have the sole decision of getting a abortion, and you can see if he wears a condom and if they say they want a child have them sign a document stating such (you would have had discussed it, right?). That would leave rape which is already a crime...

Your habit of not addressing my points is tiring.

Please stop quoting me.

[Mehrunes]

The man has 2 choices, just like the woman does. They're not the same choices, but they are choices.

Y'know, since we're just working on "having choices" as the sole merit...not whether or not they are favorable ones.

Become a father and... become a father? Yes, just like a woman.

[Drakain]

The man has 2 choices, just like the woman does. They're not the same choices, but they are choices.

Y'know, since we're just working on "having choices" as the sole merit...not whether or not they are favorable ones.

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So you don't think it's possible?

If you're going to quote me, please have the decency to answer.

I think it's so rare and unlikely to happen that it doesn't really add to this discussion.

[Tennis]

uh, was there a point in there somewhere relating to the post you quoted? Where did i mention something about a woman killing a baby?

That's what you said. The thread is about men forcing women to abort their kids. You're acting as if it is not a big deal since women can just go get more sperm in a sperm bank. Good grief man.

[zEmini]

"No" what? I wrote two paragraphs, you need to be more specific.

I'm not sure I understood your point, but if you're saying that, once we had the technology to interrupt early pregnancy without killing the fetus, women should be forced toward motherhood obligations, I'd agree that it is consistent with the current laws.

Body authonomy gives you the right to remove a fetus from your uterus. It doesn't give you the right to kill the fetus. The issue is that current technology doesn't allow you to do the first without the second.

No as in not forced into motherwood and responsibilities. It is a compromise to satisfy both the bible thumpers and the liberals.

And yes that tech isn't avaiable - all I said is that we need it.

[Anastacy]

Become a father and... become a father? Yes, just like a woman.

Nope. His two choices are: 1) become a "father" and help raise the child responsibly or 2) not help raise the child and pay child support.

Versus a woman's: 1) Carry pregnancy to term, risking health, and then raising the child as the sole parent 2) having an abortion and risking health, plus mental/social stigma.

See? Choices based solely on the merit of "having them" isn't always fun.

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I think it's so rare and unlikely to happen that it doesn't really add to this discussion.

So how "rare and unlikely" (or, rather, "common and very probable") is it for a woman to "extort" money from a man that is worthy to add to the discussion? Or did you just not want to address the whole post?

[Drakain]

Nope. His two choices are: 1) become a "father" and help raise the child responsibly or 2) not help raise the child and pay child support.

Versus a woman's: 1) Carry pregnancy to term, risking health, and then raising the child as the sole parent 2) having an abortion and risking health, plus mental/social stigma.

See? Choices based solely on the merit of "having them" isn't always fun.

Are you assuming the mother wants to maintain a relationship with the child's father? She doesn't have to. Whether he's going to nurture the child is a combination of mom's choice, his choices, and what the child wants. Whether he has to pay child support is not.

[Tennis]

Not that stealing condoms would work, but whatever else you put in the former group leaves the man with no choice. The latter leaves the woman with a choice. I don't see the drastic swing of the pendulum.

Merun out to lunch as usual. Men have the choice to abstain or use protection or to have relations with their wife. If they choose otherwise then deal with the consequences like adults.

[Anastacy]

Are you assuming the mother wants to maintain a relationship with the child's father? She doesn't have to. Whether he's going to nurture the child is a combination of mom's choice, his choices, and what the child wants. Whether he has to pay child support is not.

No; I'm assuming the man wants to be a part of the child's life in some capacity, in point 1).

[Drakain]

Nope. His two choices are: 1) become a "father" and help raise the child responsibly or 2) not help raise the child and pay child support.

Versus a woman's: 1) Carry pregnancy to term, risking health, and then raising the child as the sole parent 2) having an abortion and risking health, plus mental/social stigma.

See? Choices based solely on the merit of "having them" isn't always fun.

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So how "rare and unlikely" (or, rather, "common and very probable") is it for a woman to "extort" money from a man that is worthy to add to the discussion? Or did you just not want to address the whole post?

Whose talking about extorting? Child support is automatic in most places.

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No; I'm assuming the man wants to be a part of the child's life in some capacity, in point 1).

But that assumption has absolutely no relationship to whether dad is obligated to pay child support. What's your point?

[Shamburger]

That's what you said. The thread is about men forcing women to abort their kids. You're acting as if it is not a big deal since women can just go get more sperm in a sperm bank. Good grief man.

I don't see how a man can force a woman to abort her child and I have zero idea how you came to that from what i wrote.

All I'm saying is if you can't afford a kid on your own don't have one, you should prepare for the fact that you could end up being the sole supporter. Since woman has all the power right now the onus should be solely on them to be responsible. it's not a perfect system but it's the most equal.

Merun out to lunch as usual. Men have the choice to abstain or use protection or to have relations with their wife. If they choose otherwise then deal with the consequences like adults.

Consequences after the fact brought on solely by the woman therefor out of his control

[Anastacy]

Whose talking about extorting? Child support is automatic in most places.

The "ebul wominz steal condoms" point has been made numerous times. "Extorting" isn't the word I've chosen to use;others have, hence the quotes.

But that assumption has absolutely no relationship to whether dad is obligated to pay child support. What's your point?

It's still a choice he can make.

I'm arguing that "having choices" (ie. a woman can abort or carry to term) isn't always favorable.

[Drakain]

[QUOTE=Anastacy;39359855][QUOTE=Drakain;39359802]Whose talking about extorting? Child support is automatic in most places.

The "ebul wominz steal condoms" point has been made numerous times. "Extorting" isn't the word I've chosen to use;others have, hence the quotes.



It's still a choice he can make.

He can also choose to eat a burger for breakfast. What does that have to do with the fact that he can't control whether he becomes the child's biological father or not?

[Anastacy]

He can also choose to eat a burger for breakfast. What does that have to do with the fact that he can't control whether he becomes the child's biological father or not?

Well that's the third choice; don't stick your peen in it.

A choice a woman has, as well (well, the physical opposite of that)

[Mehrunes]

Nope. His two choices are: 1) become a "father" and help raise the child responsibly or 2) not help raise the child and pay child support.

Versus a woman's: 1) Carry pregnancy to term, risking health, and then raising the child as the sole parent 2) having an abortion and risking health, plus mental/social stigma.

See? Choices based solely on the merit of "having them" isn't always fun.

In number 2) for the man is still a father. Otherwise there would be no grounds for him to pay child support. The only difference is what he chooses to do with being a parent.

Which, guess what? So can a woman. Since the in your scenario the guy already waved fatherhood away, she has sole custody. So she can give it away to adoption even in a country that requires both parents to sign the form. She can give it away in a baby hatch. But she has the option of not becoming a mother. Also, the risk health of abortion in early period isn't monumentally high. Neither is pregnancy generally speaking. And considering how fathers walking out on their families are already subject to social stigma and that abandoning your children sounds like something that could lead to guilt and other mental stigma, the same would apply to men who would choose not to be parents.

But it's clear as day you're being intellectually dishonest right now, so have fun continuing this on your own.

[Hraklea]

No as in not forced into motherwood and responsibilities. It is a compromise to satisfy both the bible thumpers and the liberals.

Be aware that I said "it is consistent with the current laws". I did not said I support it.

There are two debates on the table here:

* One thing is "women can abort so should men be able to quit fatherhood?". That's wrong because abortion comes from body authonomy and fatherhood obligations comes from society's understanding that you should support your child. These are different legal issues and you can't compare both.

* A second thing is "should parents (both gender) be able to quit parenthood?". I'm not saying they should or shouldn't. I'm also not saying that you guys should talk about it in this thread. All I'm saying is a different debate, and that currently, the law says they can't.

So my point is that, if the father must be forced to financially support the child in case the mother doesn't want to abort, then mothers should also be forced to do it in case the fetuses survive the abortion. That's a matter of equallity. I'm only pointing out that is logically consistent. I'm not pointing out what is the correct answer to the "debate 2" - I'm saying that, whatever the answer is, it has to be equal to both genders.

[Mehrunes]

Merun out to lunch as usual. Men have the choice to abstain or use protection or to have relations with their wife. If they choose otherwise then deal with the consequences like adults.

And you're out to shitpost as usual. Do you never tire of that? Also, newsflash: so do women, they still can opt out of parenthood if they get pregnant.

[Drakain]

Quote Originally Posted by Drakain View Post
He can also choose to eat a burger for breakfast. What does that have to do with the fact that he can't control whether he becomes the child's biological father or not?
Well that's the third choice; don't stick your peen in it.

He can choose to have sex with someone, or he can choose not to. Just like a woman. Once he has sex, though, he cannot choose whether he becomes a parent or not. The woman can. Is it that you don't see the distinction, or is it that you don't care?