Why Is demon's blade still around?

[demonik]

no offense but if you haven't actually played with it you can say you don't like the idea but you can't really give feedback

usually the posts with "no offense" at the beginning are always good......you didn't really read my post did you? Because if you did you would have read the part where I state "I'd have to use it to decide" personally If I would use it.I even ask at the end of my post if I'm wrong and if I've heard wrong about this talent.

I am just posting on the fact that the community in general has been discussing how this talent is either not very good or oversimplifies the DH's rotation and why it hasn't been altered in the slightest through out the alpha releases.. Watching the talent in action on youtube and reading up on alpha player's feedback on talents/abilities and joining discussions gives a good understanding of a talent/ability.

[wordup]

Prepared is required for Fury Gen, plain and simple. Chaos Cleave and Fel Eruption simply cannot compare - the VR is necessary when you use Eye Beam, as otherwise you waste your time in Meta after Eye Beam with no fury. That's *why* it's required; you cannot afford the 20 energy of Fel Eruption in many cases (and the fury is "wasted" compared to saving for CS for DA procs to get more EB / CN) and the cleave of CS is not worth it when you could use prepared to get more Annihilations.

Again, a big difference between "required" and "the best in the tier". Prepared is not required to make use of Demonic, it's not plain and simple, you provide no evidence of that outside of just saying it is. What it effectively does in your example is create a Fury buffer zone for those who are unable to manage resource to a tee, wasting a small amount of resource by a small Demon's Bite over-gen to cap Fury before Eye Beam is going to ultimately be worth it if you're able to use Chaos Cleave over the course of a fight with multiple targets. It's very simple to pool Fury correctly in a way that you will always be able to spend aggressively after an Eye Beam or Chaos Nova simply because of the reduced duration of Demonic now, even without getting any Annihilation crits. This is also not even considering Chaos Cleave on multi-target having direct implications of non-demonic periods generating extra free casts which indirectly increase your frequency of CS casts and by extension reduce the effective ICD window of Demonic Appetite.

Felblade is in the same boat - you need that fury. Now, with the fury nerf you could argue that first blood might be good.. but first blood does not proc DA, does not allow you to chain itself, and costs more fury to boot. Comes down to a tuning issue, which we're not at right now.

It doesn't matter whether First Blood procs DA, it's an ICD that you can predict. As you've put such a significant weight on it, it's not a factor if you don't consider Chaos Cleave substantial. First Blood having a much more noticeable impact on Demonic windows as Death Sweep is now superior to Annihilation (pending on Mastery values) means that Felblade is no longer a requirement, in particular after a heavy gen & damage nerf. To compound this, the extra 10 Fury is not going to be the make-or-break as to whether you can cast or not during the Meta windows, unless you pooled incorrectly or are relying on crits, both of which isn't ideal.

For Momentum, you can maximize your at-range time. Felblade is not chosen because you're going to have to fill ranged holes. You can cancel VR, sure. But then you're going to need to FR again anyway, and you're trying to balance around Felblade being up.. or you could not cancel VR, use EB, Fel rush in, use VR uncancelled, use FE / TG, and repeat. You actually waste more Momentum Buffs double-tapping fel rush because you don't have anything up at ranged from my work with Momentum. FE also hits like a goddamn truck, particularly with a 20% buff on it. MoTG also works out kinks in the rotation where, again, you'd have nothing left but to waste half your buff running in or out.

I don't think you understood what I meant. Felblade is taken because you want to get back into melee, you optimise your Momentum uptime around your Fel Rush uptime, and VR uptime is a given through cancelling. MotG/Bloodlet will not net more use of Momentum simply by the other spells you lose in each slot, AND you needing to actively move back to the target instead of being charged back in using Felblade's mobility aspect, which is completely for free.

[Vanyali]

Again, a big difference between "required" and "the best in the tier". Prepared is not required to make use of Demonic, it's not plain and simple, you provide no evidence of that outside of just saying it is. What it effectively does in your example is create a Fury buffer zone for those who are unable to manage resource to a tee, wasting a small amount of resource by a small Demon's Bite over-gen to cap Fury before Eye Beam is going to ultimately be worth it if you're able to use Chaos Cleave over the course of a fight with multiple targets. It's very simple to pool Fury correctly in a way that you will always be able to spend aggressively after an Eye Beam or Chaos Nova simply because of the reduced duration of Demonic now, even without getting any Annihilation crits. This is also not even considering Chaos Cleave on multi-target having direct implications of non-demonic periods generating extra free casts which indirectly increase your frequency of CS casts and by extension reduce the effective ICD window of Demonic Appetite.

As I said in the post you quoted.. I'm talking "effectively / best in tier" when I say required. Probably my bad for lack of clarity; I tend to think of required as "this is what you take for raiding, the end." However, for Eye Beam I still argue that it is required - without it, you're at 50 fury for your demonic window (assuming no artifact traits) while with it you regen to 80+, meaning you're not completely screwed over by a crit.

Chaos Cleave also has a ridiculously tiny range, which is the factor of why it's negligible right now... unless the mobs are within each other's model it will not hit. Is this subject to change when we get clarification on whether or not it's intended? Absolutely.

It doesn't matter whether First Blood procs DA, it's an ICD that you can predict. As you've put such a significant weight on it, it's not a factor if you don't consider Chaos Cleave substantial. First Blood having a much more noticeable impact on Demonic windows as Death Sweep is now superior to Annihilation (pending on Mastery values) means that Felblade is no longer a requirement, in particular after a heavy gen & damage nerf. To compound this, the extra 10 Fury is not going to be the make-or-break as to whether you can cast or not during the Meta windows, unless you pooled incorrectly or are relying on crits, both of which isn't ideal.

As I noted here, tuning issue. With the nerf, First Blood may shift to required.. but Blade Dance still suffers from being.. well, Blade Dance. The more adds there are the better Annihilation will get, as you are guaranteed to not have to use Demon's Bite / Felblade for Meta's duration because of crit refunds past a certain point. This will far outscale the damage of Blade Dance. That's one of the reasons I really, really want Blade Dance to either have the refund mechanic or the refund mechanic to change to make your next fury ability free; it'd shift Annihilation from King to same tier as Blade Dance as you gain more mobs.

I don't think you understood what I meant. Felblade is taken because you want to get back into melee, you optimise your Momentum uptime around your Fel Rush uptime, and VR uptime is a given through cancelling. MotG/Bloodlet will not net more use of Momentum simply by the other spells you lose in each slot, AND you needing to actively move back to the target instead of being charged back in using Felblade's mobility aspect, which is completely for free.

The problem with Fel Rush is that you're either sitting on it, waiting for Felblade to come back up, or not using Felblade, if you're cancelling VR. Instead you can just EB without cancelling, have it gain the entire buff, throw glaive if you've still got a GCD, then FR back in and gain the buff. With MoTG you're able to do this consistently rather than the "maybe, maybe not" that happens with Felblade sometimes.

Whereas without using Felblade you can VR --> Fel Rush, Fel Rush --> Throw ranged abilities --> Fel Rush ---> use melee abilities and so forth without wasting anything should Felblade not be up, or having to hold back cooldowns should you wait on it.

Likely, both types of momentum are useable. Which one is better.. tuning. When Bloodlet was superbuffed, the ranged was far superior to anything else I tried. Fel Eruption with the buff is a monster as well. But I found the fury gain and movement made trying to be a melee momentum hunter very.. annoying compared to the ranged version, which is much more natural.

[Rolo318]

Is that really the mentality we want to have? especially this early on into the class creation? Has that done any good for other classes? Not to say that this specific talent needs to be changed or,"omg the class will suk if this talent doesn't get changed" but we as a community should be more constructive and give feedback for changes/alterations not just for this talent or class but for all aspects of the game.

But see this talent has been shown to have a place. Its not a complete garbage. OP just doesnt like it so dont take it. It really is that simple. You aren't going to please everyone. Not saying we roll over on everything. But this talent is a choice that some people like and want to theorycraft about. So because a few people dont like it we should get our pitch forks and make it go away? I probably won't be taking it but that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist

[wordup]

As I said in the post you quoted.. I'm talking "effectively / best in tier" when I say required. Probably my bad for lack of clarity; I tend to think of required as "this is what you take for raiding, the end." However, for Eye Beam I still argue that it is required - without it, you're at 50 fury for your demonic window (assuming no artifact traits) while with it you regen to 80+, meaning you're not completely screwed over by a crit.

Given you cite Appetite constantly, my assumption was you were working with the Artifact in tow, meaning you're at 80+ for your Demonic window, if that isn't the case then Appetite isn't nearly as strong as you infer.

As I noted here, tuning issue. With the nerf, First Blood may shift to required.. but Blade Dance still suffers from being.. well, Blade Dance. The more adds there are the better Annihilation will get, as you are guaranteed to not have to use Demon's Bite / Felblade for Meta's duration because of crit refunds past a certain point. This will far outscale the damage of Blade Dance. That's one of the reasons I really, really want Blade Dance to either have the refund mechanic or the refund mechanic to change to make your next fury ability free; it'd shift Annihilation from King to same tier as Blade Dance as you gain more mobs.

This isn't pertinent to First Blood discussion though, you're dragging AoE into the equation on a talent that is specifically tooled toward Single Target. If AoE is to be the case then Bloodlet arguably wins out in the long run, and Felblade is inconsequential but will have at least a small impact during your actual Meta duration. Consider now that Death Sweep on ST with First Blood deals 1200%~ weapon damage (post armor) whilst Annihilation deals 813%, regardless of crit refund with Demonic given that you only realistically have 2-3 globals for that period, it makes First Blood significantly stronger.

The problem with Fel Rush is that you're either sitting on it, waiting for Felblade to come back up, or not using Felblade, if you're cancelling VR. Instead you can just EB without cancelling, have it gain the entire buff, throw glaive if you've still got a GCD, then FR back in and gain the buff. With MoTG you're able to do this consistently rather than the "maybe, maybe not" that happens with Felblade sometimes.

On all but the worst of luck streaks given that the Felblade CD scales with haste & has the reset mechanic (and with even a rudimentary amount of Haste and pressing Demon's Bite/getting Demon Blades procs) you should rarely, if ever be in a situation where you're sat at 2 charges of Fel Rush burning time; and if such RNG is the case then it will still be mitigated by the Autos you lost (and by extension in the case of Demon Blades, Fury) by not taking Felblade instead. Downtime is absolutely the worst thing you can opt into, regardless of if you're throwing out average ranged damage spells in between. Spending time away from the target requiring double Fel Rush may play into the fantasy style you want, but it's not optimal when there is a clear option to weave out and straight back in with Felblade.

- - - Updated - - -

But see this talent has been shown to have a place. Its not a complete garbage. OP just doesnt like it so dont take it. It really is that simple. You aren't going to please everyone. Not saying we roll over on everything. But this talent is a choice that some people like and want to theorycraft about. So because a few people dont like it we should get our pitch forks and make it go away? I probably won't be taking it but that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist

I'd like to add onto this that I really don't enjoy Demon Blades (currently) but I have spent a good amount of time finding out whether it is worthwhile or not and has room to be useable, which it does (and by extension could potentially be fun in the future). Automatically spitting out a talent in the same way OP has with it isn't conducive to actually understanding what is bad and what is good, especially when Devs consider something that goes into testing to be a potential candidate for live so they obviously see a positive. That's the thing you should identify and extract, instead of just flat swatting a talent to the side becuase it's not appropriate to your gameplay style.

[demonik]

But see this talent has been shown to have a place. Its not a complete garbage. OP just doesnt like it so dont take it. It really is that simple. You aren't going to please everyone. Not saying we roll over on everything. But this talent is a choice that some people like and want to theorycraft about. So because a few people dont like it we should get our pitch forks and make it go away? I probably won't be taking it but that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist

Just to clarify I personally never said it was garbage, or that it needs to be removed. I just asked why it hasn't been altered or changed slightly to reflect the fact that it is a semi-unpopular talent choice. I also asked if what I've read/heard about it is wrong. From what I've seen it will make the simple rotation even more simplified, which I believe many players have an issue with. Your viewpoint of either "take it or leave it" is a simplistic and somewhat extreme point of view with no real constructive way to converse or work with it. just like your assumption in thinking that people who have issues with that talent "just want it to be removed and shouldn't exist".

[Vanyali]

Given you cite Appetite constantly, my assumption was you were working with the Artifact in tow, meaning you're at 80+ for your Demonic window, if that isn't the case then Appetite isn't nearly as strong as you infer.

Argh, I really should think harder when I'm tired. Specifically the fury one, as I haven't played with that to see how much it'd make pooling easier. Probably quite a bit. Without that one, Prepared is basically required. With it.. who knows, but i'd still waver toward it until we get clarification on Chaos Cleave working as it does not or as Blade Flurry does

This isn't pertinent to First Blood discussion though, you're dragging AoE into the equation on a talent that is specifically tooled toward Single Target. If AoE is to be the case then Bloodlet arguably wins out in the long run, and Felblade is inconsequential but will have at least a small impact during your actual Meta duration. Consider now that Death Sweep on ST with First Blood deals 1200%~ weapon damage (post armor) whilst Annihilation deals 813%, regardless of crit refund with Demonic given that you only realistically have 2-3 globals for that period, it makes First Blood significantly stronger.

I bring in multiple targets not on a damage basis (BD scales *very* well), but on a refund basis alone. I'm speaking purely mechanically - if you have 5+ mobs, and 50 fury, you could Blade Dance once... but you're likely to Annihilation twice, even with a relatively low crit, meaning that Annihilation will blow Blade Dance out of the water even with First Blood. On a single target? Blade Dance would win mechanically, hands down, but if you're going Demonic build you're doing so for AoE (or fun, I suppose, but "fun" builds don't generally care about being optimal).

On all but the worst of luck streaks given that the Felblade CD scales with haste & has the reset mechanic (and with even a rudimentary amount of Haste and pressing Demon's Bite/getting Demon Blades procs) you should rarely, if ever be in a situation where you're sat at 2 charges of Fel Rush burning time; and if such RNG is the case then it will still be mitigated by the Autos you lost (and by extension in the case of Demon Blades, Fury) by not taking Felblade instead. Downtime is absolutely the worst thing you can opt into, regardless of if you're throwing out average ranged damage spells in between. Spending time away from the target requiring double Fel Rush may play into the fantasy style you want, but it's not optimal when there is a clear option to weave out and straight back in with Felblade.

If Felblade would generate fury with testing dummies, this would be /much/ easier to work with to note additional chaos strikes you'd be able to weave in.

But it's not even fantasy that I'm talking about; using VR non-cancelled for Eye Beam, then using Fel Rush back in is ensuring that they don't get wasted. Sure, you could cancel, but using Felblade back in after the Rush with the nerf is less than Throw Glaive and Bloodlet (350% + 190% vs. 400%), and throwing in a Fel Eruption at 1000% while doing 20% more than makes up for the missed auto attacks within those 4 seconds (~2 auto-attacks), after which you fel rush back in.

[Synadrasa]

why is alpha an alpha?

[Mirishka]

A large majority of us can't post on alpha forums, and they pretty much completely ignore every other way we have of giving them feedback. Apparently not being in the alpha means our opinion isn't valid as feedback when it very much should be.

Are you actually suggesting that they should take the 'feedback' of people who see blue text and throw a fit as valid feedback?

Of course they're listening to people who are actually playing. If you were a car designer, and wanted opinions on how your car handled... who are you going to listen to, the guy on the test course or the guy looking at pictures in a car magazine?

[login]

Are you actually suggesting that they should take the 'feedback' of people who see blue text and throw a fit as valid feedback?

this is such a aggressive statement to make lol. If you view anything that black and white you might as well say all feedback is just people throwing a fit. It's a dismissive and a rude way to go about discrediting a viewpoint that you don't agree with.

Of course they're listening to people who are actually playing. If you were a car designer, and wanted opinions on how your car handled... who are you going to listen to, the guy on the test course or the guy looking at pictures in a car magazine?

again dismissive, and frankly not a very good comparison. With all the videos on class changes and all the theorcraftying given on forums I'd say people are much more informed about what they're discussing than just "looking at a picture in a car magazine". Your comparison is flawed and it once again just blocks any type of constructive feedback or discussion.

[Keltas]

Are you actually suggesting that they should take the 'feedback' of people who see blue text and throw a fit as valid feedback?

Of course they're listening to people who are actually playing. If you were a car designer, and wanted opinions on how your car handled... who are you going to listen to, the guy on the test course or the guy looking at pictures in a car magazine?

Yeah, they should take feedback from all us fit throwing idiots who can only read one line and be all butthurt about life.

Or, maybe we can watch videos, streams, look at logs, read theorycrafting, actually sit down and think how it works, etc. and have a pretty good understanding.

Many of us have played the game long enough to know how things are going to (at least roughly) work by reading and watching it. I don't see how that means we aren't allowed to have valid feedback on how it will work when we play it on live.

Your analogy is awful, because we aren't just browsing the patch notes and throwing fits about it because of that, we are actually looking at and reading everything about it.

Would you buy a car that a random dude who drove it once or twice told you about, or the guy who extensively researched and can give you all the info about it that there is, but hasn't driven it himself, although has plenty of testimony and thoughts from people who have?

[Deleted]

I'm not being confrontational - I'm being realistic.

ALL demon hunter builds have critical talents. You cannot build them otherwise.

Demonic REQUIRES Demonic Appetite, Prepared, Felblade, Demonic, and Unleashed Power.
Momentum REQUIRES Fel Mastery, Fel Eruption, Bloodlet, Momentum, and Master of the Glaive.
Demon Blades REQUIRES Demonic Appetite, Prepared, Felblade, Nemesis, and Demon Blades.


But for some reason you're complaining that Demon Blades is requiring and poo-poo'ing that the other two do as well. There is ABSOLUTELY a huge gap in your momentum gameplay if you don't take Fel Eruption and MoTG - you run out of ranged abilities. Similarly, should you take Demonic Appetite you don't have enough fury to sustain as you're not throwing all your fury into Chaos Strikes, and Blind Fury will mess up your rotation as well.


This isn't me "feeling" how it works, this is me testing rotations and knowing how it works.

Wtf in pvp a lot other things are more important XD

I play alpha and in pvp the only must have talents for demonhunter are:

Demonic, soul rending, chaos blades, fel eruption, Unleashed power, demonc appetite.

felblade after nerf sucks to hard, first blood doesnt work right atm, and things like demons blade are shit. Because to less damage and not enough fury also fel barrage is weak or demon reborn.

What we need and i told them in feedback are:

Maybe one or two fix selfheals without luck like deathstrike from dks. Than without you have no chance in arena if you dont take leech and demonic. It must not be high but something you could do to save your life without luck.
Demonic appetit is still to lucky sometimes you get 1 soul with every hit sometimes not one in a arena fight.
Also one or two stack able off-cds that chaosblade is not a must have. I think something like 130 fury and 20 % crit for 10 sec . 2 mins cd or something like that would be nice.
Also a def cd like shadow cloak or antimagicbubble from dks would be nice or something to evade things like nova from mages etc.
Than any fix slow without talents like every other melee has would be great.

Talents should be choices in pve and pvp not must haves to stay alive or do enough damage.
Other classes have talents to choose between in pvp for more damage more cc or more dev but not you have to choose always one because the rest is shit.
As demonhunter you have max 2 talents atm that you can say is a choice the rest is all must have for pvp. And every good player specs the same so i dont think high skilled players like cartoon or so would spec always the same talent if the oter ones also would be a choice.

Look at things like desperate instinks you gave up your only def cd for what ? a risky 30% same def cd but with lower cd?
I mean what is if i know i need it later or i know i must take it now because of the synergy with felrush ?
the same for netherwalk cool thing but the replace of blur come on.....

Also talents like blind fury sounds cool but you stand for nearly 4 secs and your enemey could run where ever he will. If he is stuned yes of course it does a lot damage, but you loose a lot gobal cds and demonic and momentum ends after this eyebeam. And eyebeam has zero synergy with Demonform so ^^

Momentum should hold 10 sec if it should be a choice. than you give up a lot mobility if you need to felrush for the damage buff and it should work also with fel blade.

We dont need all the things of the list but one or two would make ur game play better and mor skilll like.

But i think every player wants other things for his class happens. If they dont nerf the leech and give us back a bit more damage in demonform all is fine not super but play able ^^

[Vanyali]

@Liondi

These are choices you're making.. you're making build choices. Which is fine. it's actually a lot closer to the old trees that people are constantly calling for back, though a lot smaller.

I'm not sure why you brought PvP in though; PvP doesn't have rotations, and is far more flexible, but even with what you said there's a set build (i'd pull out chaos blades for fel barrage personally, once fel barrage is implemented) But even then, as you pointed out, the PvP build is *set*. You're not playing around with Chaos Cleave or Fel Mastery if you're pvp'ing seriously.

[Deleted]

@Liondi

These are choices you're making.. you're making build choices. Which is fine. it's actually a lot closer to the old trees that people are constantly calling for back, though a lot smaller.

I'm not sure why you brought PvP in though; PvP doesn't have rotations, and is far more flexible, but even with what you said there's a set build (i'd pull out chaos blades for fel barrage personally, once fel barrage is implemented) But even then, as you pointed out, the PvP build is *set*. You're not playing around with Chaos Cleave or Fel Mastery if you're pvp'ing seriously.

Yes but the old trees in Wotlk BC and classic ( i play since beta vanilla ) gave you not more choice but personality . I dont want them back. Atm the new builds are fine.

I only hope they make some talents to passivs or abilitys. Things like Demonic or leech should be passivs. Maybe nerf the leech to 50% or so but not as talent.
Also the slow you dont make them to a talent.
Every other class has selfheal and slow without talents i think we are the only melee class which must spec slow and selfheal in Legion.

Also things like felblade could be fix abilitys.

New talents could be things like :

Eyebeam damage is increased by ~ 10 % if your in demonform or in demonform eyebeam cost no fury and regenerates 50 fury.
chaosstrike in Demonform dont cleave but does ~50% more singletarget damage.
Zorn of illidari follows you and reg ~ 10 fury pro hit
Mark of the ilidar: all your abilitys does chaos damage for 20 sec and your cooldown reduction is increased by 10% passiv.
Blind Hate: You hit for X weapondamage and gain 5% - 30% hp back cost 10-60 fury. 10~30 sec cd.

Something like that would be nice. the % and damage and fury are only numbers i took as place holder balance is testing and blizzards thing.

[Vanyali]

I only hope they make some talents to passivs or abilitys. Things like Demonic or leech should be passivs. Maybe nerf the leech to 50% or so but not as talent.
Also the slow you dont make them to a talent.
Every other class has selfheal and slow without talents i think we are the only melee class which must spec slow and selfheal in Legion.

Those being passive would be the most broken, overpowered things in the game. Either one by itself.

[yasiru]

Would you buy a car that a random dude who drove it once or twice told you about, or the guy who extensively researched and can give you all the info about it that there is, but hasn't driven it himself, although has plenty of testimony and thoughts from people who have?

Actually, in this case, neither. I was in the market to buy a new car last year. Researched for a couple months what i was interested in, and had a couple friends who owned and swore by the car, but it wasn't until I finally sat behind the wheel and test drove it that I came to realize I hated it.....

But, in regards to playing a new class in WoW, yes I would be more apt to listen to someone who has at least had opportunities to play it hands on, then someone who has been reading articles and watching youtube videos...

[wordup]

Actually, in this case, neither. I was in the market to buy a new car last year. Researched for a couple months what i was interested in, and had a couple friends who owned and swore by the car, but it wasn't until I finally sat behind the wheel and test drove it that I came to realize I hated it.....

But, in regards to playing a new class in WoW, yes I would be more apt to listen to someone who has at least had opportunities to play it hands on, then someone who has been reading articles and watching youtube videos...

I am 100% biased as I have both research and gameplay experience; but I'd agree that there is a world of difference between reading/listening and actually trying. There's a lot of info out there atm about Havoc that is very kneejerk and in some cases quite slapdash from a lack of experience of either Melee or just varied class design in general. When that happens it muddies the experience a lot because you're absorbing opinions from people who may just simply be spinning it in a way that isn't relevant or insightful.

Don't get me wrong, having the information of the class out there is better than nothing, but it's quite a different story playing it, checking the things out yourself and seeing how they interact from a gameplay perspective; and listening to X guy on Youtube telling you it's bad/amazing/whatever else. At the same time, research is pretty much as important as playing it hands on, so I'd probably say there's a number of people giving feedback about the spec who haven't touched it that have more valid opinions than people playing it hands on and commenting on it in an authorative manner for that very reason.