[Enhancement] Future Legion Resources

[Lavindar]

That's true enough (the point about tuning). That said, we lost pretty much every selfheal and damage mitigation outside of MS healing and crappy Astral Shift. In that context, and also considering it has to perform well versus our only shot on decent mobility or a raid sprint, it would have to pull considerable enough numbers.
The redesign it was introduced with happened on the premise of making every talent worth taking, I presume. GoW was removed because it easily outperformed SL, so if they then introduced a talent weaker then the other two, what would be the point?
Take a reasonably strong aoe heal times five or so, and you might just safe on a healer, which would be huge and make it mandatory.

Now there's two options imo:
1) It is strong enough, and create the problems I named. It might also have additional repercutions as you mentioned.
2) It wont, and wont be worth taking.

Either way, it is debatable as a talent, to say it diplomatic.

Saying FL is our only decent mobility tool is a bit too much.

Also I doubt in a raid there would be stacking shamans for various Rainfalls, I think you would lose a lot more in lacking diversity than getting one less healer.

[Deleted]

Outside of FL, we've got a low +speed (GW) and a 1m cd sprint which is ok if there's not to much movement, I guess.

With decent mobility, I mean stuff to perfom very quick target switching, reengaging after target moves/we have to move, and other such scenarios.
Outside FL, we have nothing for that, unlike just about any other melee.

With lacking diversity, I guess losing the benefit of different dps.
I admit I dont keep track of other classes' raid utility. Is there much of it?

[tbm13]

Is anyone else bummed about having to choose between Windsong and boulderfist? I like the idea of having lots of enhancements to keep track of, but choosing between these 2 pains me.

[wordup]

Outside of FL, we've got a low +speed (GW) and a 1m cd sprint which is ok if there's not to much movement, I guess.

I really can't follow your logic here. You say Feral Lunge is the best, but Spirit walk is "ok, I guess". One is a charge with a min/max range that will only ever pull you to the target, the other has a 15 sec duration, 60% boost to MS that will get you in, out, and let you shake it all about when it's up too. How can Feral Lunge ever realistically be superior as a "mobility" tool, unless you're talking exclusively about a tool to engage on a target, which are vastly different.

[Deleted]

I really can't follow your logic here. You say Feral Lunge is the best, but Spirit walk is "ok, I guess". One is a charge with a min/max range that will only ever pull you to the target, the other has a 15 sec duration, 60% boost to MS that will get you in, out, and let you shake it all about when it's up too. How can Feral Lunge ever realistically be superior as a "mobility" tool, unless you're talking exclusively about a tool to engage on a target, which are vastly different.

If you're in a fight where you have to constantly run around, dodging stuff and reengage/target switch and such, a 1m cd is not enough, right? ANd most of the duration of the sprint is usually wasted to, as you rarely need to sprint for the whole 15s. A 30s sprint with 7s duration would be much better.

Having to move once a minute is not a challenge to mobility, really.

Naturally, GoT is what I would've preferred for a lot of reasons, and it bums me out a lot they took it out for enhancement, especially for a apparently not thought through talent.

I guess decent in my POV is
low cd
strong effect

If you look at live mobility tools, we've got GW (low cd, but weak effect), UE sprint (low cd, but weak effect), Spirit Walk (high cd, strong effect), Eye of the Storm (Primal Storm Elemental aura) (high cd but long duration, strong effect, very inconvinient as it is around a caster pet, requiring two talents and blocks out Fire Elemental).

What enh needed all this time was something properly filling the holes and it is this; The baseline instant gap closer that everyone has in some way or another, complimenting it with other stuff on top (catform, BoS, Serpent Kick, Heroic Leap...)

[Deleted]

If you're in a fight where you have to constantly run around, dodging stuff and reengage/target switch and such, a 1m cd is not enough, right? ANd most of the duration of the sprint is usually wasted to, as you rarely need to sprint for the whole 15s. A 30s sprint with 7s duration would be much better.

Having to move once a minute is not a challenge to mobility, really.

Naturally, GoT is what I would've preferred for a lot of reasons, and it bums me out a lot they took it out for enhancement, especially for a apparently not thought through talent.

I guess decent in my POV is
low cd
strong effect

If you look at live mobility tools, we've got GW (low cd, but weak effect), UE sprint (low cd, but weak effect), Spirit Walk (high cd, strong effect), Eye of the Storm (Primal Storm Elemental aura) (high cd but long duration, strong effect, very inconvinient as it is around a caster pet, requiring two talents and blocks out Fire Elemental).

What enh needed all this time was something properly filling the holes and it is this; The baseline instant gap closer that everyone has in some way or another, complimenting it with other stuff on top (catform, BoS, Serpent Kick, Heroic Leap...)

How could you possibly be complaining about MOBILITY?

You list 4 different tools and yet you say "we need something to fill the last hole" in your already giant mobility kit. Look at fucking Death knights. They just VERY recently got Wraith walk - 70% for 3s. Id say enhancement is even on par with assassination rogues. They have 15% passive, sprint which is 10% faster than enhance and finally shadowstep (same range and cd as feral lunge but no dmg. yes its baseline). Burst of speed is no longer in the game. Also have no idea why you mention cat form, when its pretty much identical to ghost wolf as a gap closer (feral's dash is on a 3min cd btw). Ret is also in the same boat as DKs, they have mount in combat for 4sec /1min cd OR a 3hp spender that gives them 20% movement speed for 1min ...

Please stop this nonsense, mobility is literally the only thing you cant complain about when it comes to enhancement.

[Hivey]

I've always found spirit wolf + UE together more than sufficient.

[wordup]

How could you possibly be complaining about MOBILITY?

You list 4 different tools and yet you say "we need something to fill the last hole" in your already giant mobility kit. Look at fucking Death knights.

Another classes tools don't have any bearing on feedback about this right now. I think it's been made very clear that Mobility and Defensives are loaded into the same boat and intended to be part of the same package, and when it comes to Defense, both Unholy and Frost have significantly (and by significantly I mean 3-4x) superior defensive kits to Enhancement. Ret is in fact the only one with a really short end of the stick right now because their defensives are pretty weak relative to how poor their mobility is, DKs arguably have one of the most rounded at this point.

[Deleted]

Another classes tools don't have any bearing on feedback about this right now. I think it's been made very clear that Mobility and Defensives are loaded into the same boat and intended to be part of the same package, and when it comes to Defense, both Unholy and Frost have significantly (and by significantly I mean 3-4x) superior defensive kits to Enhancement. Ret is in fact the only one with a really short end of the stick right now because their defensives are pretty weak relative to how poor their mobility is, DKs arguably have one of the most rounded at this point.

Uhm astral shift is literally twice (both dmg reduction and cd) as good as icebound fortitude and AMS is now 1min cd and absorbs WAY less than on live. How could this possibly make you think DKs have 3-4x stronger..?

[wordup]

Uhm astral shift is literally twice (both dmg reduction and cd) as good as icebound fortitude and AMS is now 1min cd and absorbs WAY less than on live. How could this possibly make you think DKs have 3-4x stronger..?

As I literally said in the post you quoted, not interested in other classes, but as you seem intent on dragging in the tirade of other class whine into here, let me explain why:
IBF lasts 2 seconds longer, making it not a direct 2:1 comparison as you make, but yes, Shift is stronger. However, having two separate CDs in AMS and IBF that you can use is infinitely stronger than having one that can be used more frequently (may I refer you to what Enhancement has right now, having Shift AND Rage at the same time as options is significantly stronger than simply having Rage). It is not relevant as to whether AMS is weaker or not compared to live, it is still an entire extra tool available. Then, on top of that, both Frost and Unholy have two extremely strong defensive options that Enhancement has no access to (Corpse Shield is virtually an immunity soak at this point, on a -one minute- cooldown) and Permafrost is completely free, constant absorbs. This is all ignoring the fact that on those tiers should you opt out of those talents, you can beef up AMS or augment Wraith Walk to be better than it currently is. There are no options to increase Enhancement survivability on any of the tiers currently, and the mobility options are either very specific in a charge, or a raid-wide long CD sprint.

[Deleted]

Stormfury doesnt reset stormstrike during Ascendance when SS become windstrike is that correct?
Ive been using ascendance and once i windstrike i see my spell going on 11 sec cd and then if stormfury procs i see it shining but it does not reset the cooldown.

[Deleted]

You list 4 different tools and yet you say "we need something to fill the last hole" in your already giant mobility kit.

The UE sprint gets removed come legion, along with UE. And Storm Elemental becomes an elemental skill, and will lose the aura as well, I think, because the talent's gone.
So in legion we're down to Spirit Walk and Ghostwolf (outside of ~maybe~ Feral Lunge). GW provides 30% speed and locks you out of being able to use stuff. DKs have a short cd speed increase that serves a similar niche as GW, as it also provides passive speed. Dunno what you guys have come legion though, I admit.

That said, why would another low performer in the batch be justification for low mobility? If at all, it would justify attention for dks. Saying we cant ask for improvement, because you need some too, is beyond dumb.

Id say enhancement is even on par with assassination rogues. They have 15% passive, sprint which is 10% faster than enhance and finally shadowstep (same range and cd as feral lunge but no dmg. yes its baseline).

How are we on par if our instant gap closer requires a talent? The damage of FL will be irrelevant. The very notion I was talking about was us having to possibly give up our only talent/pvp talent/artifact option for mobility in favor of raid support. Saying we are on par with rogues, including FL, while they dont have to make that possible sacrifice, do I need say more?

Burst of speed is no longer in the game.

I didn't know that, fair point.

Also have no idea why you mention cat form, when its pretty much identical to ghost wolf as a gap closer (feral's dash is on a 3min cd btw).

Theirs is essentially a passive +30% speed buff. Ours is temporary and locks out any other ability, until cancelled. Their gap closer is still baseline, I presume? With that, the sprint's less needed than ours.

Ret is also in the same boat as DKs, they have mount in combat for 4sec /1min cd OR a 3hp spender that gives them 20% movement speed for 1min ...

Yes, ret, dk and enh. The traditionally least mobile melees, still being at the bottom. I guess if there was an upside to it for enh, I wouldn't complain. So far, we have hardly mitigation/survivability left, lost a big chunk of our pvp kit

Please stop this nonsense, mobility is literally the only thing you cant complain about when it comes to enhancement.

Uuuum, nope. Single target dps/burst and maybe selfhealing would probably the only thing I couldn't complain about.

At this point I reaaaaly hope that I'll never have to talent out of FL, that heal support will be good enough without Rainfall, and that Druids prove the aoe sprints/or people using their own crap for moving, because I sure dont want to be forced out of it.

[Deleted]

Stormfury doesnt reset stormstrike during Ascendance when SS become windstrike is that correct?
Ive been using ascendance and once i windstrike i see my spell going on 11 sec cd and then if stormfury procs i see it shining but it does not reset the cooldown.

This is a bug so feel free to report it in the official forums. Wind strike always had a seperate id and i wouldn't be surprised if some talents or perks don't affect wind strike in the right way.

[Deleted]

Stormfury doesnt reset stormstrike during Ascendance when SS become windstrike is that correct?
Ive been using ascendance and once i windstrike i see my spell going on 11 sec cd and then if stormfury procs i see it shining but it does not reset the cooldown.

That sounds like a bug to me. Would be very surprised if it made it live. Blizz always had to do quadruple treatment for SS changes, as it included SS mh, SS of, WS mh, WS oh.
Sounds to me they overlooked one of the veeery many interactions there will be with Stormstrike while under Ascendence.

[Deleted]

As I literally said in the post you quoted, not interested in other classes, but as you seem intent on dragging in the tirade of other class whine into here, let me explain why:
IBF lasts 2 seconds longer, making it not a direct 2:1 comparison as you make, but yes, Shift is stronger. However, having two separate CDs in AMS and IBF that you can use is infinitely stronger than having one that can be used more frequently (may I refer you to what Enhancement has right now, having Shift AND Rage at the same time as options is significantly stronger than simply having Rage). It is not relevant as to whether AMS is weaker or not compared to live, it is still an entire extra tool available. Then, on top of that, both Frost and Unholy have two extremely strong defensive options that Enhancement has no access to (Corpse Shield is virtually an immunity soak at this point, on a -one minute- cooldown) and Permafrost is completely free, constant absorbs. This is all ignoring the fact that on those tiers should you opt out of those talents, you can beef up AMS or augment Wraith Walk to be better than it currently is. There are no options to increase Enhancement survivability on any of the tiers currently, and the mobility options are either very specific in a charge, or a raid-wide long CD sprint.

They could simply tune the lvl 45 talent row. It's currently very very bad anyways, it has literally no raid use and they earth grab is the only one with potential in PVP. You need to be very very stupid to be affected by the other two totems... and both are crappy pve wise anyways.

And what about giving us something baseline? Wind rush totem will be a must have anyways, why not make it baseline like it is for ferals? It's nice to have the option for some offhealing now, but it should be off the GCD first (unless we aren't gcd capped) and it should be a more powerful, but longer CD, more like AG and not like that healign rain talent everybody hated anyways all the time.

I anyways have the feeling wind rush totem will be MANDATORY in PVE. And in any raid scenario any enhancer will be expected to have wind rush ready whenever there's some movement involved. That's up to the raid leader, not you. That's why i hate the current talent row as it currently has only a must have option.

They could bring us closer to ferals by making wind rush baseline and buffing astral shift. Perhaps a talent could replace astral shift or simply give it charges. Ferals already have charges on their def cd, making it more versatile than current AS. It's not about the CD, it's currently very likely you need two def cds within 30 sec and none the rest of the fight. Unless dps CDs, def CDs are used to survive strong incoming damage, not high uptime to look better in damage taken statistics.

- - - Updated - - -

The UE sprint gets removed come legion, along with UE. And Storm Elemental becomes an elemental skill, and will lose the aura as well, I think, because the talent's gone.
So in legion we're down to Spirit Walk and Ghostwolf (outside of ~maybe~ Feral Lunge). GW provides 30% speed and locks you out of being able to use stuff. DKs have a short cd speed increase that serves a similar niche as GW, as it also provides passive speed. Dunno what you guys have come legion though, I admit.

That said, why would another low performer in the batch be justification for low mobility? If at all, it would justify attention for dks. Saying we cant ask for improvement, because you need some too, is beyond dumb.


How are we on par if our instant gap closer requires a talent? The damage of FL will be irrelevant. The very notion I was talking about was us having to possibly give up our only talent/pvp talent/artifact option for mobility in favor of raid support. Saying we are on par with rogues, including FL, while they dont have to make that possible sacrifice, do I need say more?


I didn't know that, fair point.

Theirs is essentially a passive +30% speed buff. Ours is temporary and locks out any other ability, until cancelled. Their gap closer is still baseline, I presume? With that, the sprint's less needed than ours.


Yes, ret, dk and enh. The traditionally least mobile melees, still being at the bottom. I guess if there was an upside to it for enh, I wouldn't complain. So far, we have hardly mitigation/survivability left, lost a big chunk of our pvp kit

Uuuum, nope. Single target dps/burst and maybe selfhealing would probably the only thing I couldn't complain about.

At this point I reaaaaly hope that I'll never have to talent out of FL, that heal support will be good enough without Rainfall, and that Druids prove the aoe sprints/or people using their own crap for moving, because I sure dont want to be forced out of it.

Sadly you're right.

Rogues have insane mobility and insane def cds, most of them baseline. Ferals have stronger def CDs, stronger utility and stronger mobility BASELINE and can talent into two talents making them better at surviving or mobility, whatever they need. They never need to talent out of roar because... well... it's baseline.

They have two talents that can buff their survivability (including offhealing) or mobility, we have only one. Even zero if wind rush totem is mandatory.

Honestly, i simply don't like ferals game play (maybe should give it some try after WOTLK), but i feel we once again lack on all fronts and can only close the gap by picking one talent. Something has to be baseline. And the lvl 45 needs an interesting option. They all currently suck pve wise. The lvl 45 talent row is worse than the old 45 talent row - because TP had some use in PVE, the new one completely fails in that direction.

[Deleted]

When looking at the latest patch, I notice that Counterstrike Totem (Totemists win :P) still works as it does, and is avaiable on all three specs.

Now if we did 3v3 with 3 shamans, and the enemy startet their dmg train and we dropped this, would we one shot one of their mates instant, because their entire damage is then essentially concentrated on their weakest link, times three?

I see this as a strong talent already in a duel, where your target suddenly takes their own damage plus yours, until totem gets destroyed, but yee, in arena that is nuts!

Better yet, imagine putting this fucker in a big slaughter fest in alterac valley/ashran, the entire pack would concentrate their damage on one of their own, killing an ally every couple of seconds.

The other two are sorta balanced, but this basically eradicates stuff of the map.

[nazrakin]

The trees are shaping up nicely, I like how they're moving things around. The biggest sore points are still 30 and 45 though. Having group and personal utility on the same tier still makes no sense to me. They should just move one of the CC totems to 30, trash the others and make 45 a personal utility tier with Feral Lunge, a DR talent (Sham Rage?), and increased range on enhancement attacks or something else.

[wordup]

The trees are shaping up nicely, I like how they're moving things around. The biggest sore points are still 30 and 45 though. Having group and personal utility on the same tier still makes no sense to me. They should just move one of the CC totems to 30, trash the others and make 45 a personal utility tier with Feral Lunge, a DR talent (Sham Rage?), and increased range on enhancement attacks or something else.

Group and Personal I think belong on a tier, they just need to be weighted in a way that you have the options of one or the other so that fights that don't lean toward group tools allow you to switch over to something personal. I still agree though that a personal DR belongs somewhere in these two tiers since obviously our defense has gone down when others who have been "defensive focused" had their mobility upped, and our base defense now is significantly worse than it realistically should be to balance out that stuff amongst other classes (again hate comparing but it's pretty extreme the gap now).

[Huggykaze]

The moment discussion shifts from mechanics to things like DR or mobility, you can be sure the spec is in a good place. Good to see that

[Deleted]

How could you possibly be complaining about MOBILITY?

You list 4 different tools and yet you say "we need something to fill the last hole" in your already giant mobility kit. Look at fucking Death knights. They just VERY recently got Wraith walk - 70% for 3s. Id say enhancement is even on par with assassination rogues. They have 15% passive, sprint which is 10% faster than enhance and finally shadowstep (same range and cd as feral lunge but no dmg. yes its baseline). Burst of speed is no longer in the game. Also have no idea why you mention cat form, when its pretty much identical to ghost wolf as a gap closer (feral's dash is on a 3min cd btw). Ret is also in the same boat as DKs, they have mount in combat for 4sec /1min cd OR a 3hp spender that gives them 20% movement speed for 1min ...

Please stop this nonsense, mobility is literally the only thing you cant complain about when it comes to enhancement.

3 or 4 sec max boost is more important than those 15 sec. You never need 15 sec infight.

You lose uptime because the target is unattackable for some reason or you need to run out because of fight mechanics. Most debuffs are just a short cd.

Rogues have better mobility than enhancers do baseline. And yes, FL puts us mobility wise a little bit ahead. On the other hand, they have insane def cds, immunities, life savers. We don't. From what we know, rogues may have perma -50% aoe damage reduction whenever they need it + cloak + a talent row around ADDITIONAL defenses. That's hardly comparable as the rogues toolkit is much better - by a far margin. The same counts for pretty much every melee. Good def cds were always a lot more important than 1sec less uptime on the boss.

Additionally, it was always a balancing thing. They tuned classes around less boss uptime. ThereÄs no reason to assume that classes with less mobility might end up with stronger patchwerk dps. But lacking that one defense tool makes your raid leader choose someone who has the right tools at their disposal. Windrush totem might be the only thing that saves enhancers. Of course ferals have the much better toolkit, yet there aren't a lot of strong ferals around. That bleeding play style doesn't attract a lot of people yet.

I am more afraid that elementals might kill off enhancers raid spots. So you could fill the rare melee spots with those top melees for fight mechanics and if you need wind rush, just pick one or two elementals... it's not like ranged ever were much more favorable for raiding. They never tried to fix this.