I never expected Vanilla WoW to be that good

[Queen of Hamsters]

EPL bats that spammed fear?
Apart from overpulling I don't think anything would actually kill you if you took your time. Maybe Jintha'alor elites if you didn't beg a mage for food before heading out.

uh... STV mastery bosses/elites?

Actually, I never went back to WPL and thus didn't get to EPL when I leveled for the first time...why? Because I had, quite derpishly, ran into a WPL area and died horribly to many undead mobs and plagued bears when my level was way too low. Put me off going back to those areas until I leveled a second character. XD

I did however, years later, "save" a newb from those EPL bats. He was about to die since fears had made him pull more than he could handle and I came in with a multi-shot of salvation!...Only, this was on a pvp server which resulted in a very much dead newb. At least he didn't die to the bats...

[kary]

trick question. previous poster already proved ubrs was not hard. neither were baron runs, as a bonus.

Baron runs were a race against the clock. Timed runs are different for obvious reasons.
But nice try with avoiding the question.

[Deficineiron]

Baron runs were a race against the clock. Timed runs are different for obvious reasons.
But nice try with avoiding the question.

sorry I was convinced by the blinding logic above so now I am on your side. I will vocally disprove any alleged 'claim' of difficulty in classic wow.

LOL at posters who think mob x doing more damage than now and player y having less health and doing less damage than now has any correlation to difficulty.

This should also inspire folks who were put out about the late tbc mass raid boss nerfs and the ICC creeping nerf %'s, since it means that no matter what they think, the raid wasn't any easier than it was before the nerfs.

it may be that for some raids, LFR wasn't any less difficult than harder settings also when the difference was just damage numbers.

[kary]

...I played a paladin. I just did less damage. I was never at risk of dying as long as I utilized my brain to not overpull.
Do you understand the words that I am typing?

You'd only die if you did something stupid. That doesn't make the game hard, at all.

[Deficineiron]

...I played a paladin. I just did less damage. I was never at risk of dying as long as I utilized my brain to not overpull.
Do you understand the words that I am typing?

You'd only die if you did something stupid. That doesn't make the game hard, at all.

You have not stated this, but did you ever die while leveling? Why? If you did not utilize your brain as implied as one possible cause of this, why not?

I hope that you never, ever died on an occasion that you had utilized your brain as, given the axioms of 'difficulty' we have established above, that would raise uncomfortable questions.

[Queen of Hamsters]

...I played a paladin. I just did less damage. I was never at risk of dying as long as I utilized my brain to not overpull.
Do you understand the words that I am typing?

You'd only die if you did something stupid. That doesn't make the game hard, at all.

Indeed, and people still die if they do something stupid. Hell, I've seen people die to say those Saberon mobs in Spires of Arak that you have to kill in the bonus objective area and that's WITH all the "oh-shit!" utility of classes today.... Seen skeletons here and there across leveling zones for as long as I can remember which means people still die just fine when they fuck up on account of being bad or just new.

And that's before counting all the deaths in endgame raiding. 900 wipes in HFC Mythic by the BEST players in the world springs to mind. XD

[kary]

You have not stated this, but did you ever die while leveling? Why? If you did not utilize your brain as implied as one possible cause of this, why not?

I hope that you never, ever died on an occasion that you had utilized your brain as, given the axioms of 'difficulty' we have established above, that would raise uncomfortable questions.

I've never said that I didn't die leveling. Dying to bad play doesn't make the thing you died to difficult. If you didn't move out of doomfire and it kills you, does that make doomfire a hard mechanic?

And yeah, i died to defias pillagers at low levels, I died to pirates when I was trying to rush, I've died to a combo of EPL bats/gargoyles. Saved my HoJ for the fear and voila.

[Pua]

Wow. Just... Wow.

The mental gymnastics being employed here to avoid admitting that vanilla was harder to level in are absolutely astonishing. It's literally bending the space-time continuum to points as yet unheard of.

But hey - keep fighting the good fight. Denial of reason is so in these days.

@Deficineiron

I'd give up. Trying to talk round insanity doesn't look to have a high success rate.

[kary]

Wow. Just... Wow.

The mental gymnastics being employed here to avoid admitting that vanilla was harder to level in are absolutely astonishing. It's literally bending the space-time continuum to points as yet unheard of.

But hey - keep fighting the good fight. Denial of reason is so in these days.

@Deficineiron

I'd give up. Trying to talk round insanity doesn't look to have a high success rate.

Anyone who doesn't share your beliefs is wrong, amirite?

I already told you why vanilla wasn't hard, just tedious. You refuse to acknowledge any pov other than your own. No wonder screenshots aren't enough.

[cirdanx]

Anyone who doesn't share your beliefs is wrong, amirite?

You are free to believe in what you want. That´s your right Still...

Leveling was harder, as were dungeons, no matter leveling or when you hit 60. The risk of dying was real. When i was leveling my first Tauren warrior in Barrens i often miss-pulled and could easily die, always had to watch out for roaming centaur patrols because they easily could mean death. Sure, you had to pause more, regenerating your health.

But the thrill, that you could die was actually what kept me interested and the first time tanking Wailing Caverns was quite the experience. This was also the time i made a lot of contacts, because strangers would band together to make it easier and die less. Or because their class was kinda weak in solo play. Strange how that works isnt it? Same with my first char an Undead Warlock, good old Silverpine Forest...i don´t thing it was difficult. But it wasn´t too easy you know?

This is all gone. I did level a new character pre-WoD because i let myself talk into it by a friend. New server, no heirlooms. I never died once. You have to be retarted to die now. And because it´s so easy i let it be after we hit BC content. I couldn´t bring myself to play like this anymore. I also hated every dungeon, no challenge, just run everything over. What´s the point in that? Because of that i started to deck out heirlooms in the past, the content while leveling has become such a boring, unrewarding drought that i just wanted to get it done asap. Until i reached the point where the thought of leveling a new character was unbearable.

I, personally, would take Vanilla WoW over...let´s say pre-Cata, every day. No question.

[Bigthumbb]

I've never said that I didn't die leveling. Dying to bad play doesn't make the thing you died to difficult. If you didn't move out of doomfire and it kills you, does that make doomfire a hard mechanic?

And yeah, i died to defias pillagers at low levels, I died to pirates when I was trying to rush, I've died to a combo of EPL bats/gargoyles. Saved my HoJ for the fear and voila.

I disagree. Maybe an experienced or skilled player like yourself wouldn't often die during Vanilla leveling, but a majority of people died, and died often.

Furthermore, and more importantly, what you call "dying to bad play," I would call "a game that punishes you for mistakes," which is part of what makes a game difficult. Most of the dangers in vanilla weren't supremely difficult to avoid, but boy, if you made a mistake and over pulled, you were in heaps of trouble.

There are different elements involved in making a game "hard." Vanilla leveling didn't require fancy footwork or extreme rotation management, but it did demand attention, and if you made a mistake, the punishment was dire. So in THAT way specifically, it was hard. Determining exactly how hard mistake punishment makes a game is more of a subjective call. I would say that it does contribute to vanilla's toughness.

We can also objectively say that the WoW leveling experience today never or rarely punishes players for mistakes. How hard exactly was vanilla leveling? That's your call. But it was objectively harder than it is today.

[kary]

I disagree. Maybe an experienced or skilled player like yourself wouldn't often die during Vanilla leveling, but a majority of people died, and died often.

Furthermore, and more importantly, what you call "dying to bad play," I would call "a game that punishes you for mistakes," which is part of what makes a game difficult. Most of the dangers in vanilla weren't supremely difficult to avoid, but boy, if you made a mistake and over pulled, you were in heaps of trouble.

There are different elements involved in making a game "hard." Vanilla leveling didn't require fancy footwork or extreme rotation management, but it did demand attention, and if you made a mistake, the punishment was dire. So in THAT way specifically, it was hard. Determining exactly how hard mistake punishment makes a game is more of a subjective call. I would say that it does contribute to vanilla's toughness.

We can also objectively say that the WoW leveling experience today never or rarely punishes players for mistakes. How hard exactly was vanilla leveling? That's your call. But it was objectively harder than it is today.

Well, that's the point I was making more than anything. Yes, it was harder than it is today. But it wasn't hard (to me).

TBH if people miss the vanilla leveling experience so much, they should just ironman level. Pretty much the same

[Pantalaimon]

You sound like Blizzard employee.

Why, because I don't use bandwagon arguments or other sweeping generalizations to explain a complex problem? I guess only Blizzard employees engage in logical discussions then.

[Pua]

Anyone who doesn't share your beliefs is wrong, amirite?

Well...

Yes, it was harder than it is today.

It seems you agree with me. Who'd have thought that? It wasn't just that I think everyone should agree with me; it's that I was self-evidently correct, and you did everything possible to avoid simply accepting it.

I'm glad we got there in the end, champ.

[Deleted]

Wow. Just... Wow.

The mental gymnastics being employed here to avoid admitting that vanilla was harder to level in are absolutely astonishing. It's literally bending the space-time continuum to points as yet unheard of.

But hey - keep fighting the good fight. Denial of reason is so in these days.

@Deficineiron

I'd give up. Trying to talk round insanity doesn't look to have a high success rate.

You miss the whole point though the quests were made that way for 2 reasons, to force you form groups which 110% elads to maknig friends(i did such friends) and to prolong the completition of the quest because at the end it always m ake it more rewarding?

But your definition of difficulty its beyond stupid,its flawed especially concerning an MMorpg like WoW, u think mythics are difficult? Ha...laughable a simple combination of total Item level and coordination from a specific guild, no real mechanics difficulty, not to mention u have every every.. kind of detail about encounters down to the last milisecond of the fight boss skils and everything.DOnt mess up mechanics/anticipation and flexes with a game like WoW, and i've said it to a previous guy before i was Global Elite (before the rearrangement) in CS GO, the epitome of reflexes and mechanics in a non anticipated PVP enviroment.

WoW defined its difficulty mostly through time consumption which i agree, but that was not only it, take for example a simple quest in barrens ''Stolen SIlver''

Yes it was challenging to kill 2 raptors of the same level and also trying to last hit them with a burst dps skills and that...IF u have saved sufficient mana for it,

And then u had to worry about pulling the next 3 unit raptors

And if u didnt die by any fleeing mob, You had to arrange your drinking with that was so it can be fast enough to avoid having respawns untill i get to silver.

These are some issues i never encountered wotlk+ expansions


This WHOLE procedure makes an MMORGP difficult mate, difficulty leads to more time consumption, so yes it can become more tedious. But i found myself making 2 friends in this quest and also i found myself more engaged into the game enviroment.

Not to mention i never appreciated the spirit so much in my shammy at the first 45 levels and how it actually enhanced my levelling,even though at first i was like ''o look the so called messed up armor items i've heard off''

I admire Blizz and i will always play their games, i've bought numerous heartshstone decks, Hots skinns.The diablos, all STar craft expansions(untill legacy of the void) and i've pre-ordered Overwatch that will hopefully make me stop playing CS after so many years.

But when i wrote my OP i truly beileved what i said, i wish i ahd experienced those *game* mechanics live back then.

THe only reason that made me buy and play MoP and WoD was the nostalgia of what this game used to be, like a loyal soldier to a company who made him had fantastic time playing this game, and i am not regretting it because Blizzard is a hell ofa good company but that wont change the great opinion i forged about Vanilla as an expansion i didnt expierience live. Hell i objectively stopped enjoying the game at late Cata, i am still one of those that i enjoyed raiding in Cata as a healer my best times as a healer raider so extremely challenging especially in terms of managing your mana pool throught the fight while being extremely efficient

[D3athsting]

Just went to IF on vanilla server and after seeing so many players at 2 a.m. i nearly started to cry...

[cirdanx]

Just went to IF on vanilla server and after seeing so many players at 2 a.m. i nearly started to cry...

A good game knows no age.

This is why RTS fans still prefer SC1 over SC2 (my experience), or still play C&C Generals. Why D2 is still more played than D3. (check out all the Diablo fansites ffs) Why i would rather play BG2 than Dragon Age 3. Or why we have more fun playing UT than a new shooter. Or why CS is still going strong, or Everquest has never vanished.

All these new games try to appeal to a broader audience, or be multi-platform. Instead they should win over new people with their well established and working formular and work on and from that. My 2 cents.

[Deleted]

Just went to IF on vanilla server and after seeing so many players at 2 a.m. i nearly started to cry...

Yes, amazing, isn't it? Do all of those people not realise that this is only nostalgia at play here? :P

[kary]

You miss the whole point though the quests were made that way for 2 reasons, to force you form groups which 110% elads to maknig friends(i did such friends) and to prolong the completition of the quest because at the end it always m ake it more rewarding?

But your definition of difficulty its beyond stupid,its flawed especially concerning an MMorpg like WoW, u think mythics are difficult? Ha...laughable a simple combination of total Item level and coordination from a specific guild, no real mechanics difficulty, not to mention u have every every.. kind of detail about encounters down to the last milisecond of the fight boss skils and everything.DOnt mess up mechanics/anticipation and flexes with a game like WoW, and i've said it to a previous guy before i was Global Elite (before the rearrangement) in CS GO, the epitome of reflexes and mechanics in a non anticipated PVP enviroment.

WoW defined its difficulty mostly through time consumption which i agree, but that was not only it, take for example a simple quest in barrens ''Stolen SIlver''

Yes it was challenging to kill 2 raptors of the same level and also trying to last hit them with a burst dps skills and that...IF u have saved sufficient mana for it,

And then u had to worry about pulling the next 3 unit raptors

And if u didnt die by any fleeing mob, You had to arrange your drinking with that was so it can be fast enough to avoid having respawns untill i get to silver.

These are some issues i never encountered wotlk+ expansions


This WHOLE procedure makes an MMORGP difficult mate, difficulty leads to more time consumption, so yes it can become more tedious. But i found myself making 2 friends in this quest and also i found myself more engaged into the game enviroment.

Not to mention i never appreciated the spirit so much in my shammy at the first 45 levels and how it actually enhanced my levelling,even though at first i was like ''o look the so called messed up armor items i've heard off''

I admire Blizz and i will always play their games, i've bought numerous heartshstone decks, Hots skinns.The diablos, all STar craft expansions(untill legacy of the void) and i've pre-ordered Overwatch that will hopefully make me stop playing CS after so many years.

But when i wrote my OP i truly beileved what i said, i wish i ahd experienced those *game* mechanics live back then.

THe only reason that made me buy and play MoP and WoD was the nostalgia of what this game used to be, like a loyal soldier to a company who made him had fantastic time playing this game, and i am not regretting it because Blizzard is a hell ofa good company but that wont change the great opinion i forged about Vanilla as an expansion i didnt expierience live. Hell i objectively stopped enjoying the game at late Cata, i am still one of those that i enjoyed raiding in Cata as a healer my best times as a healer raider so extremely challenging especially in terms of managing your mana pool throught the fight while being extremely efficient

Honestly if you think mythics are just "abilities do 20% more damage" I can tell that you're a LFR hero.

Mythics are more mechanically complex. Which is why they are more difficult. Look at mythix Xhul, or even something silly like HFA where you have to split the raid. That's an increase in difficulty. Mobs that just hit harder by a negligible amount isn't increased difficulty. Sorry.

[Pua]

But your definition of difficulty its beyond stupid,its flawed especially concerning an MMorpg like WoW, u think mythics are difficult? Ha...laughable a simple combination of total Item level and coordination from a specific guild, no real mechanics difficulty, not to mention u have every every.. kind of detail about encounters down to the last milisecond of the fight boss skils and everything.

That was one of the most rambling, ill-directed posts I’ve ever seen; I’m not even sure it was aimed at me, despite you quoting one of my earlier posts.

I’ve been speaking about levelling difficulty, specifically, throughout this recent discussion (though, one could transpose that with dungeon difficulty). You proceed to tell me that my definition of difficulty is “beyond stupid”, despite me never having given such a definition, and then spend several paragraphs agreeing with me. In case you missed it, the individual I was arguing with also agreed with what I was saying.

Now, as to your point about Mythic “not being hard at all” (which I think is your point, so poorly was it made) that’s completely wrong given the methodology I explicitly stated. We’re talking about World of Warcraft raiding, and comparing tiers at different times of the game, because that’s the only comparison that would make sense. Trying to use other games is functionally no different to saying:

Mythic raiding is easy. Brain surgery? Now that’s hard.

Luckily, nobody’s doing that anymore because it’s self-evidently daft.

Here’s the reality:

- Levelling and dungeoneering was the hardest it’s ever been in vanilla.
- Raiding is the hardest it’s ever been in Warlords of Draenor.

One could argue that professions used to be harder, but I think “less streamlined” would be more appropriate – they did, at least, have strong endgame value.

So, from a nuanced point of view, what can we conclude about people who say:

”The game is so casual, it’s never been easier!”

Or:

”The game is more hardcore than ever!”

We can conclude that they’re both right, depending on what specific part of the game they’re talking about. Everything up to raiding has been made quicker, easier and more streamlined, while organised raiding itself has never been more mechanically challenging than it is now. What that’s roughly done to the playerbase is create challenging endgame content that its players aren’t ready for when they get there. In order to placate this community, “casual” content such as LFR has been put in to plug the gap but it’s a wholly empty experience and, as a result, has no pull as a retention mechanic.

Vanilla, on the other hand, was far more punishing while levelling up and doing dungeons, you spend longer in an exploratory world that didn’t prescribe everything for you, and then you got into an endgame that required commitment but wasn’t outside your ability when you got there.

Ultimately, to me, THAT is the difference between then and now.

World of Warcraft originally stood behind you with the odd banana skin in front, giving you a gentle shove to make you think you could get over a wall when it inevitably appeared. Circa Warlords of Draenor, players are thrown into a mine-cart that hurtles you to the end of a track at breakneck speed, then throws you off a mountain in the hope you’ll sprout wings.

It’s little wonder that one succeeded, and the other failed.